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The lack of some of these features is a cause of some of the population scarcity, but fixing them won't bring the population influx that some of the 2.0 stuff will. Additionally, back-porting the plugin functionality won't make the vets less frustrated....they already have plugins. They want the game-play.
Having acknowledged the righteousness of the suggestion, we have moved on to sailboat discussions as that was a very key point in my list, and lists are important.
I've considered, when I have kids, digging a big hole in the back yard, and setting in a salvage sailboat up to the waterline, and making it into a fort for my kids. They could camp in it, pretend to go sailing, swing from a rope off the deck into the moat that will be dug around it....and the best part, is we can fill the moat with Gar!
Having acknowledged the righteousness of the suggestion, we have moved on to sailboat discussions as that was a very key point in my list, and lists are important.
I've considered, when I have kids, digging a big hole in the back yard, and setting in a salvage sailboat up to the waterline, and making it into a fort for my kids. They could camp in it, pretend to go sailing, swing from a rope off the deck into the moat that will be dug around it....and the best part, is we can fill the moat with Gar!
Improving the radar interface so that multiple plug ins dont have to avoid stepping on each other would be a big help - targetless and cargolist as an example. A better way to access the data without each plugin having to scan the sector would solve much of the problem.
I wish you were my daddy savet!
Frankly, I don't think that any data gathering abilities like in TargetLess or TradeAssistant should be added to the client. Leave those as plugins. Though some sort of visual target list would be nice. I'm thinking I need to revisit my own targetlist plugin and allow it to be arbitrarily placed so it doesn't rely on the MDI plugin.
Why shouldn't it have a default one and then an option not to use it so us plugin buffs can replace it with our own; isn't that a preferable scenario? It's really about what newbies see first up more than anything else
There's really not any good reason to have a big list of crap all over the screen by default, especially with smaller screen devices like phones or tablets. The game's built-in target list (/toplist) would be fine if it had more features.
I completely disagree with Pizzasgood's position on this subject. While there are lots of people that could learn to program, many of them choose not to, and will not change that choice just to play a video game. If I wanted to play a game that required programming, I would play a game where I program an AI to do the fighting for me. VO is not billed as a programmer's game.
I do think that some plugings, or equivalent functionality, should be integrated into the game, such as knowing when a player enters or leaves the sector.
With that being said, I do not see VO as a programmer's game. I am not aware of any significant disadvantages to playing VO without programming anything, and no one here has demonstrated anything of significance to give me reason to think otherwise. What does a player have to program to be competitive, or what significant advantage does a programmer have over a non programmer in VO? Give me a concrete example. Making a plugin that will automatically fire for you when your weapon is in range and inside the autoaim limit is an unfair advantage, but as far as I know, the devs have disabled this functionality. What advantage, specifically, does a programmer, or even a plugin user have over a non programmer or a non plugin user?
Too much of this thread is based on hypothetical theoretical philosophical vaporware. Give me a concrete example.
I do think that some plugings, or equivalent functionality, should be integrated into the game, such as knowing when a player enters or leaves the sector.
With that being said, I do not see VO as a programmer's game. I am not aware of any significant disadvantages to playing VO without programming anything, and no one here has demonstrated anything of significance to give me reason to think otherwise. What does a player have to program to be competitive, or what significant advantage does a programmer have over a non programmer in VO? Give me a concrete example. Making a plugin that will automatically fire for you when your weapon is in range and inside the autoaim limit is an unfair advantage, but as far as I know, the devs have disabled this functionality. What advantage, specifically, does a programmer, or even a plugin user have over a non programmer or a non plugin user?
Too much of this thread is based on hypothetical theoretical philosophical vaporware. Give me a concrete example.
Making a plugin that will automatically fire for you when your weapon is in range and inside the autoaim limit is an unfair advantage, but as far as I know, the devs have disabled this functionality
Actually, the game client implements this already for mobile users. It's not very useful except when fighting low level bots.
Actually, the game client implements this already for mobile users. It's not very useful except when fighting low level bots.
TRS: Draug was talking about the ore database functionality, not the target listing. It sounded like he is a fan of having optional target listing.
Arf: /+toplist just pops up the sector list in the PDA, which then swallows your keypresses, making combat nigh impossible. An in-hud list is much more useful, and can always be disabled by people who don't want the clutter. It could be disabled by default on mobile clients.
The PC client should never be held back by mobile clients.
"I completely disagree with Pizzasgood's position on this subject. While there are lots of people that could learn to program, many of them choose not to, and will not change that choice just to play a video game. If I wanted to play a game that required programming"
Except that this is not a game that requires programming. If it were, you'd have a point. There are a lot of skills somebody can work on to get an edge in VO, including programming, strategy, tactics, logistics, 3d spatial awareness, physics, and charisma. Choose to learn them or don't. Bitching about your own laziness is invalid.
Arf: /+toplist just pops up the sector list in the PDA, which then swallows your keypresses, making combat nigh impossible. An in-hud list is much more useful, and can always be disabled by people who don't want the clutter. It could be disabled by default on mobile clients.
The PC client should never be held back by mobile clients.
"I completely disagree with Pizzasgood's position on this subject. While there are lots of people that could learn to program, many of them choose not to, and will not change that choice just to play a video game. If I wanted to play a game that required programming"
Except that this is not a game that requires programming. If it were, you'd have a point. There are a lot of skills somebody can work on to get an edge in VO, including programming, strategy, tactics, logistics, 3d spatial awareness, physics, and charisma. Choose to learn them or don't. Bitching about your own laziness is invalid.
Roda, many plugins will not be disclosed due to the advantage posed by not disclosing them -- however, I think it's fairly well known there are larger "suites" of plugins that include some of the following:
Ore Databases
Trade Databases
List of Players Detected In the Universe
Player Alert Systems (including collective data regarding where and when a player was on)
Chain Fire setup
Customizable Radar (i.e. makefriends)
Auto-Follow (for chasing people)
Sortable On-Screen Lists of in sector items
Customizable Auto-jettisoning
That's the short list of things that are not available to the newbs, and if the newbs had them their life would be SO much easier and VO would be SO much interesting. But I'm not asking for all that stuff to be integrated into the client. I'm asking for the features in Targetless (sortable and selectable onscreen sector lists), elements of TCS (chain fire, enter/leave sector alerts) and Trade Assistant to help with basic use of VO.
Also, for those of you who for some reason think I'm saying the code of those plugins should be integrated -- I'm not. That's ridiculous. It's the features present in those plugins that should be added. Surely the devs would know better and more efficient ways of integrating those features.
Ore Databases
Trade Databases
List of Players Detected In the Universe
Player Alert Systems (including collective data regarding where and when a player was on)
Chain Fire setup
Customizable Radar (i.e. makefriends)
Auto-Follow (for chasing people)
Sortable On-Screen Lists of in sector items
Customizable Auto-jettisoning
That's the short list of things that are not available to the newbs, and if the newbs had them their life would be SO much easier and VO would be SO much interesting. But I'm not asking for all that stuff to be integrated into the client. I'm asking for the features in Targetless (sortable and selectable onscreen sector lists), elements of TCS (chain fire, enter/leave sector alerts) and Trade Assistant to help with basic use of VO.
Also, for those of you who for some reason think I'm saying the code of those plugins should be integrated -- I'm not. That's ridiculous. It's the features present in those plugins that should be added. Surely the devs would know better and more efficient ways of integrating those features.
@Pizzasgood:
"Vendetta Online is a 3D space combat MMORPG..."
Now ask yourself, at what point does programming fit into that description. I am not saying it doesn't, but I am saying that it shouldn't, in regard to tactic combat. Program to your hearts content when it comes to trading, mining, and... um.. trading and mining. As long as a non programmer can go fight competitively without programming, I do not really care. We can file programming under the rp part. You can rp the miner/trader/programmer, and I will rp that I am going to shoot you for you being such a geek.
@greenwall:
"many plugins will not be disclosed due to the advantage posed by not disclosing them"...
prove it (semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit)
As to the other plugins you list, I consider them optional. You do not need any of those to be good at VO. Especially not for a newb. A newb needs to learn how to shoot, and how to run away, not where to find the best ore. by the time they need to find the best ore, they are not a newb anymore, and they can learn how to load a plugin.
I am not against adding stuff to VO. I am for it. I am not against plugins. I think plugins are a great way to prove that something should be added to the game. So go make a plugin and prove it. I just don't see anything that is a game breaker.
"Vendetta Online is a 3D space combat MMORPG..."
Now ask yourself, at what point does programming fit into that description. I am not saying it doesn't, but I am saying that it shouldn't, in regard to tactic combat. Program to your hearts content when it comes to trading, mining, and... um.. trading and mining. As long as a non programmer can go fight competitively without programming, I do not really care. We can file programming under the rp part. You can rp the miner/trader/programmer, and I will rp that I am going to shoot you for you being such a geek.
@greenwall:
"many plugins will not be disclosed due to the advantage posed by not disclosing them"...
prove it (semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit)
As to the other plugins you list, I consider them optional. You do not need any of those to be good at VO. Especially not for a newb. A newb needs to learn how to shoot, and how to run away, not where to find the best ore. by the time they need to find the best ore, they are not a newb anymore, and they can learn how to load a plugin.
I am not against adding stuff to VO. I am for it. I am not against plugins. I think plugins are a great way to prove that something should be added to the game. So go make a plugin and prove it. I just don't see anything that is a game breaker.
Greenwall, every single one of those features except the list of detected players is publicly available to everybody, regardless of whether they know how to program.
"As long as a non programmer can go fight competitively without programming, I do not really care."
Then why are you bitching? This is already the case.
"As long as a non programmer can go fight competitively without programming, I do not really care."
Then why are you bitching? This is already the case.
Roda, you are in the minority if you think plugins are not advantageous. And you are also trolling if you think I'm going to publicly list all the plugins that I know by name and all their wonderful little details. You are also missing my point, so I'm done addressing your idiotic comments.
Pizzasgood, it's not *specifically* programming that is the repulsive factor here. It's the need to tinker and configure in ways that are not user-friendly to those who are unfamiliar with command line interfacing and folder structure.
I mean -- right off the bat, in order to use any plugins, you are instructed to manually modify the file contents of the VO game. That made me nervous when I first did it, and kind of skeptical of the entire concept.
For someone like you, Pizzasgood, or Draugath, or any other people who feel completely comfortable with such things, obviously it's not a concern -- and can easily be seen as something someone can learn and adapt to. However, that viewpoint is unfortunately elitist and exclusionary, and serves to the detriment of player retention -- which is really the point of this whole thread: If you want more people to play your game, you HAVE to make it more accessible. Part of doing that is what the devs have tried very hard to do -- i.e. making it available across a plethora of platforms and operating systems... but another huge part is removing or neutralizing things IN GAME that make it appear to be less accessible. The greater number of people will always take the path of least resistance.
So given all that, I still maintain the existence of, addition of (and even the requesting of) features that are not clear and easy to access by joe schmoe gamer are an ongoing detriment to the VO player population.
Wake up!
Pizzasgood, it's not *specifically* programming that is the repulsive factor here. It's the need to tinker and configure in ways that are not user-friendly to those who are unfamiliar with command line interfacing and folder structure.
I mean -- right off the bat, in order to use any plugins, you are instructed to manually modify the file contents of the VO game. That made me nervous when I first did it, and kind of skeptical of the entire concept.
For someone like you, Pizzasgood, or Draugath, or any other people who feel completely comfortable with such things, obviously it's not a concern -- and can easily be seen as something someone can learn and adapt to. However, that viewpoint is unfortunately elitist and exclusionary, and serves to the detriment of player retention -- which is really the point of this whole thread: If you want more people to play your game, you HAVE to make it more accessible. Part of doing that is what the devs have tried very hard to do -- i.e. making it available across a plethora of platforms and operating systems... but another huge part is removing or neutralizing things IN GAME that make it appear to be less accessible. The greater number of people will always take the path of least resistance.
So given all that, I still maintain the existence of, addition of (and even the requesting of) features that are not clear and easy to access by joe schmoe gamer are an ongoing detriment to the VO player population.
Wake up!
Greenwall, you're the one that needs to wake up. All of the problems you're describing are not unique to VO. Every other game with an extension/plugin system has the same roadblocks. The only difference is that some of them have a large and diversified enough player base that they also have 3rd-party installers/managers to make things simpler. I get where you're coming from, it would be nice to see many enhancements propagated upstream into the client, but remember that GS has limited resources with which to pursue such things.
No, I'm fully awake. I never said they were unique to VO. That does not mean, however (and as you are asserting) that they are commonplace. Most mainstream mmorpg's that i've played have a lot more basic level stuff IN PLACE in the default client.
And don't tell me to remember that GS has limited resources, ffs. That just shows your lack of not having read my entire OP, and thus your self-obsessed crusade for an ever-suppressed VO population via an infinite amount of lua-only accessible functions. You opinion is even less credible because you never play the game or, specifically, interact with other players in gameplay, and thus shows you could care less what the VO population was. You just manage IRC_, offer occasional technical help on chat, and fiddle with your useless HUD arrangement plugins that nobody cares about.
This issue WARRANTS devotion of limited dev resources because it directly and significantly affects the bottom line.
And don't tell me to remember that GS has limited resources, ffs. That just shows your lack of not having read my entire OP, and thus your self-obsessed crusade for an ever-suppressed VO population via an infinite amount of lua-only accessible functions. You opinion is even less credible because you never play the game or, specifically, interact with other players in gameplay, and thus shows you could care less what the VO population was. You just manage IRC_, offer occasional technical help on chat, and fiddle with your useless HUD arrangement plugins that nobody cares about.
This issue WARRANTS devotion of limited dev resources because it directly and significantly affects the bottom line.
Well I hate to break up this little smurf banter because it's just so hilarious. However, the fact is that other games have tweak departments that listen to players on issues of user interface and make changes accordingly.
We get complaints about the default user interface all the time usually before the new player has discovered plugins exist and there are lots of them to solve really simple problems. The ones that are okay with this idea are the ones that stay and become players, the ones that aren't just write off the game (which includes the ones that don't ask questions to the community about why x or y common sense UI feature hasn't been integrated yet).
This is a thing, I've seen it happen a whole bunch of times. The default UI lacks far too many common sense features to the extent that only a obscurely tiny minority of regular players use no plugins at all.
The basic mechanics about the 15k detection range for sensors and alerting when people come into that range is an example of the kind of stuff that needs to be better in the default client but isn't. The first plugin I installed was spuck's enterleave plugin (which I use to this day) and after that I breathed a sigh of relief that the game wasn't going to be an absolute chore to deal with UI-wise.
The fact is greenwall is right, the default UI sucks but none of us care about it because we all stop using it after a week and we expect others to do the same. It is an unreasonable expectation and the best should be done to improve that situation sooner rather than later.
We get complaints about the default user interface all the time usually before the new player has discovered plugins exist and there are lots of them to solve really simple problems. The ones that are okay with this idea are the ones that stay and become players, the ones that aren't just write off the game (which includes the ones that don't ask questions to the community about why x or y common sense UI feature hasn't been integrated yet).
This is a thing, I've seen it happen a whole bunch of times. The default UI lacks far too many common sense features to the extent that only a obscurely tiny minority of regular players use no plugins at all.
The basic mechanics about the 15k detection range for sensors and alerting when people come into that range is an example of the kind of stuff that needs to be better in the default client but isn't. The first plugin I installed was spuck's enterleave plugin (which I use to this day) and after that I breathed a sigh of relief that the game wasn't going to be an absolute chore to deal with UI-wise.
The fact is greenwall is right, the default UI sucks but none of us care about it because we all stop using it after a week and we expect others to do the same. It is an unreasonable expectation and the best should be done to improve that situation sooner rather than later.
This is a thing, I've seen it happen a whole bunch of times. The default UI lacks far too many common sense features to the extent that only a obscurely tiny minority of regular players use no plugins at all.
As much of an insufferable douche TRS is, he's right on the money with this complaint.
Even features that the game does have for situational awareness, are often set to useless defaults in fresh installation. Example: The proximity warning beep.
As much of an insufferable douche TRS is, he's right on the money with this complaint.
Even features that the game does have for situational awareness, are often set to useless defaults in fresh installation. Example: The proximity warning beep.
"As much of an insufferable douche TRS is, he's right on the money with this complaint."
I'M the insufferable douche!?!
You're the one who can't even comment on a thread without first clarifying your personal stance on the posters. It's completely juvenile.
The only difference between you and I is that i'm here to intentionally drive people crazy for entertainment value and everybody knows it. You're the worst kind of morally superior troll.
Let the smurf banter resume!
I'M the insufferable douche!?!
You're the one who can't even comment on a thread without first clarifying your personal stance on the posters. It's completely juvenile.
The only difference between you and I is that i'm here to intentionally drive people crazy for entertainment value and everybody knows it. You're the worst kind of morally superior troll.
Let the smurf banter resume!
Even I use enterleave plugin, even if I use nothing else. This is something that should be added to the standard client install.
I am not opposed to improving the client. I am opposed to trying to wedge every plugin into the default client. Things that you consider as very important, are not at all important to me. Each player should have some say on what is and is not important to them.
What the client really needs is a better plugin installer. A player should be able to copy/paste a url into an input box in the game, and the plugin be installed for them. They should also have a method to uninstall/deactivate the plugin.
The devs did a good job of making a plugin system, and now that it has proven useful, they should go ahead and add the polish and shine to it.
The better the plugin system, the better the resulting plugins available. The more plugins available, the less likely the devs will be able to keep up with implementing every thing available via plugins.
The long term solution is to make plugins more accessible/manageable.
Only a very few things should actually be migrated into the default install.
edit: as part of the shine and polish of the plugin systems, the devs could monitor what publicly available plugins are in most common usage, so they could decide what most merits being integrated into the default client. If you publicly post a url to your plugin, you should expect that its usage will be monitored.
I am not opposed to improving the client. I am opposed to trying to wedge every plugin into the default client. Things that you consider as very important, are not at all important to me. Each player should have some say on what is and is not important to them.
What the client really needs is a better plugin installer. A player should be able to copy/paste a url into an input box in the game, and the plugin be installed for them. They should also have a method to uninstall/deactivate the plugin.
The devs did a good job of making a plugin system, and now that it has proven useful, they should go ahead and add the polish and shine to it.
The better the plugin system, the better the resulting plugins available. The more plugins available, the less likely the devs will be able to keep up with implementing every thing available via plugins.
The long term solution is to make plugins more accessible/manageable.
Only a very few things should actually be migrated into the default install.
edit: as part of the shine and polish of the plugin systems, the devs could monitor what publicly available plugins are in most common usage, so they could decide what most merits being integrated into the default client. If you publicly post a url to your plugin, you should expect that its usage will be monitored.
Well I hate to break up this little smurf banter because it's just so hilarious.
You're the one who can't even comment on a thread without first clarifying your personal stance on the posters.
Yep, insufferable douche.
You're the one who can't even comment on a thread without first clarifying your personal stance on the posters.
Yep, insufferable douche.