Forums » Bugs
Cellsafemode, while I actually agree with you when it comes to the /explode command specifically, I do not agree for externally inflicted explosions. Newbies absolutely should not be penalized for me getting up in their face and killing them while I have low health so that their explosion kills me. That is why I'm concerned about whether the Stand Your Ground rule impacts the 24hKOS system.
Oh, by the way, you shouldn't just assume everybody knows what you're talking about when you say things like, "He just wants this for his crap bot." I had no idea what you meant until several posts later. Since the devs are typically more out of touch with what's going on in-game than I am, they'd have had no idea what you meant either.
Oh, by the way, you shouldn't just assume everybody knows what you're talking about when you say things like, "He just wants this for his crap bot." I had no idea what you meant until several posts later. Since the devs are typically more out of touch with what's going on in-game than I am, they'd have had no idea what you meant either.
Nobody is pissed that they have a bot.
You sure about that one, fella?
Which is Too Bad (tm) because ship explosions cause damage and always have and doing it in the NFZ or in a protected system where you kill someone with standing or just in the NFZ causes the same consequences as if you shot them. There is nothing ambiguous or misleading or buggy about it. Just because you died when it happened doesn't mean you're not responsible for the damage your dying inflicted.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either ship explosions cause damage and all the consequences thereof are included if you /explode yourself that the game currently inflicts or you have to make ship explosions not cause any damage to other ships....no matter where they occur and who is exploding ...including npc's.
There is currently no situation where exploding and shooting isn't the same thing.
Ok so I just did in game testing. I have verified that you DO NOT incur ANY penalty for causing damage by /exploding in the NFZ. Therefore your statement is incorrect: Ship Explosion damage is NOT the same as if you shot them. You can't argue against the OP in favor of consistency (cake/eating) when there is no fucking consistency to uphold. I was arguing in FAVOR of the OP because of a clear inconsistency, but for some reason you glossed over that important point. My guess is that reason is a combo of you don't care what I say because you hate me (/ all Itani) and also because you have shiity reading comprehension skills.
Kierky is not asking for his explosion to not cause damage, he is asking for any kills that result of this damage (most likely originating from enterprising individuals trying to exploit their way into re-homing him in nationspace) to not incur the 24-KoS penalty that accompanies killing people with weaponry.
If the devs fixed this it would amount to them making a a confusing faction penalty system clearer and more straightforward. The truth is that you, Cellsafemode, are advocating that the devs keep this clear inconsitency in place in order to penalize Kierky for no reason other than you don't like him. My advice would be simply to say this rather than yammer on about shit you have no clue about.
You sure about that one, fella?
Which is Too Bad (tm) because ship explosions cause damage and always have and doing it in the NFZ or in a protected system where you kill someone with standing or just in the NFZ causes the same consequences as if you shot them. There is nothing ambiguous or misleading or buggy about it. Just because you died when it happened doesn't mean you're not responsible for the damage your dying inflicted.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either ship explosions cause damage and all the consequences thereof are included if you /explode yourself that the game currently inflicts or you have to make ship explosions not cause any damage to other ships....no matter where they occur and who is exploding ...including npc's.
There is currently no situation where exploding and shooting isn't the same thing.
Ok so I just did in game testing. I have verified that you DO NOT incur ANY penalty for causing damage by /exploding in the NFZ. Therefore your statement is incorrect: Ship Explosion damage is NOT the same as if you shot them. You can't argue against the OP in favor of consistency (cake/eating) when there is no fucking consistency to uphold. I was arguing in FAVOR of the OP because of a clear inconsistency, but for some reason you glossed over that important point. My guess is that reason is a combo of you don't care what I say because you hate me (/ all Itani) and also because you have shiity reading comprehension skills.
Kierky is not asking for his explosion to not cause damage, he is asking for any kills that result of this damage (most likely originating from enterprising individuals trying to exploit their way into re-homing him in nationspace) to not incur the 24-KoS penalty that accompanies killing people with weaponry.
If the devs fixed this it would amount to them making a a confusing faction penalty system clearer and more straightforward. The truth is that you, Cellsafemode, are advocating that the devs keep this clear inconsitency in place in order to penalize Kierky for no reason other than you don't like him. My advice would be simply to say this rather than yammer on about shit you have no clue about.
Okay, I just tested. Defending yourself does not count toward the 3 kill per week 24hKOS system.
I'm advocating that it is/should be treated exactly like firing your weapon in the NFZ since you can damage ships with your explosion and cause their death or damage them. To the other player, your ship's explosion has the same net effect that getting shot at would have. So to fix the inconsistencies with the penalty system, make it exactly the same as shooting / defending after being shot. Rather than go the other direction which makes more special cases with what triggers penalties vs not. Every offensive damage/kill done in the NFZ or to players of standing within guarded/monitored etc type situations should be treated the same. With corvus being the only exception.
There is currently no situation where exploding and shooting isn't the same thing.
That sounds like a statement of fact and not an advocation.
That sounds like a statement of fact and not an advocation.
Seems exploitable to me. Take the following example:
Two griefers working together find a newbie in a station sector. Griefer A shoots the newbie, which flags Griefer A as hostile and the newbie is allowed to defend against Griefer A (so there's no penalty if the newbie's explosion kills Griefer A). However, Griefer B, who hasn't fired a shot and intentionally has 1% health, deliberately stays within close proximity of the newbie to ensure that when the newbie explodes it will take out Griefer B (who is not flagged hostile and thus the newbie will incur a penalty).
If the newbie does nothing, then a penalty is incurred. If the newbie tries to flee, as long as Griefer B is able to stay within range of the newbie, which shouldn't be too difficult considering the newbie status, then a penalty is incurred as long as Griefer A is able to destroy the newbie before he/she is able to jump out of the sector. Destroying Griefer A (so that it is Griefer A's explosion that destroys Griefer B) would be another way to avoid penalty, but not a likely course for a newbie.
The one saving grace is that this course of action also incurs a penalty to Griefer A for destroying the newbie, so in theory at least makes it difficult to use the exploit repeatedly.
Two griefers working together find a newbie in a station sector. Griefer A shoots the newbie, which flags Griefer A as hostile and the newbie is allowed to defend against Griefer A (so there's no penalty if the newbie's explosion kills Griefer A). However, Griefer B, who hasn't fired a shot and intentionally has 1% health, deliberately stays within close proximity of the newbie to ensure that when the newbie explodes it will take out Griefer B (who is not flagged hostile and thus the newbie will incur a penalty).
If the newbie does nothing, then a penalty is incurred. If the newbie tries to flee, as long as Griefer B is able to stay within range of the newbie, which shouldn't be too difficult considering the newbie status, then a penalty is incurred as long as Griefer A is able to destroy the newbie before he/she is able to jump out of the sector. Destroying Griefer A (so that it is Griefer A's explosion that destroys Griefer B) would be another way to avoid penalty, but not a likely course for a newbie.
The one saving grace is that this course of action also incurs a penalty to Griefer A for destroying the newbie, so in theory at least makes it difficult to use the exploit repeatedly.
It's still potentially exploitable. Which means it should be fixed.
Exploitable and being exploited. Hence this bug post...
This sounds like a whole lot of work to fix what sounds like a very remote edge case...and whether I agree or disagree with the original assertion it doesn't seem like a very wise allocation of resources to "fix"
this is too funny. I love the pretend situation that has never occurred ever in the game being used as an example of some kind of exploit.
No, this is entirely in retaliation for one situation that wasn't exploiting anything.
This wasn't a case of someone got shot and their explosion killed an unrelated character who purposely was nearly dead so they could incur a penalty.
This was reported to keep a bot from being KOS'd because it was programmed to /explode within the NFZ and not care if it was near anyone with standing at the time etc.
The truth is nobody was trying to exploit a 24hKOS. I completely assumed the developers used some amount of common sense and made the killing by explosion within NFZ or even protected space the same as if your explosion killed someone anywhere else in the game. Meaning, you get credit for a Player Kill when your explosion kills someone so you would also get the penalty for killing someone with standing and the associated penalties of NFZ kills. That's why I devised a plan to kill the bot's standing by being killed by the bot's explosion. Not some stupid idea of exploiting a situation that shouldn't even exist as a special case.
/explode and exploding should be dealt with as two different things. Your ship's explosion should always damage and kill someone but when it comes to penalties your ship exploding by being shot at should most certainly be treated differently as initiating an /explode command. The command to self destruct is voluntary and should incur any and all penalties for doing so and causing damage within any kind of protected system or zone but being shot and killed should not incur additional penalties.
dont worry though, it only took me a couple minutes to formulate that plan to attack the Itan bot. I have many others and none rely on any exploits or bugs. Just like this one, they rely only on the fact that it's a bot that can only do certian things so unless you want to babysit it 24x7, it will be treated like any member of the guild it belongs to. Simply a target.
No, this is entirely in retaliation for one situation that wasn't exploiting anything.
This wasn't a case of someone got shot and their explosion killed an unrelated character who purposely was nearly dead so they could incur a penalty.
This was reported to keep a bot from being KOS'd because it was programmed to /explode within the NFZ and not care if it was near anyone with standing at the time etc.
The truth is nobody was trying to exploit a 24hKOS. I completely assumed the developers used some amount of common sense and made the killing by explosion within NFZ or even protected space the same as if your explosion killed someone anywhere else in the game. Meaning, you get credit for a Player Kill when your explosion kills someone so you would also get the penalty for killing someone with standing and the associated penalties of NFZ kills. That's why I devised a plan to kill the bot's standing by being killed by the bot's explosion. Not some stupid idea of exploiting a situation that shouldn't even exist as a special case.
/explode and exploding should be dealt with as two different things. Your ship's explosion should always damage and kill someone but when it comes to penalties your ship exploding by being shot at should most certainly be treated differently as initiating an /explode command. The command to self destruct is voluntary and should incur any and all penalties for doing so and causing damage within any kind of protected system or zone but being shot and killed should not incur additional penalties.
dont worry though, it only took me a couple minutes to formulate that plan to attack the Itan bot. I have many others and none rely on any exploits or bugs. Just like this one, they rely only on the fact that it's a bot that can only do certian things so unless you want to babysit it 24x7, it will be treated like any member of the guild it belongs to. Simply a target.
"this is too funny. I love the pretend situation that has never occurred ever in the game being used as an example of some kind of exploit. "
Heh, this coming from the guy who wants unverified plugins confined to the test server? Potsafemode, meet Kiettleky.
Heh, this coming from the guy who wants unverified plugins confined to the test server? Potsafemode, meet Kiettleky.
I fail to see how scripted code equates to player action. Nothing i did here was scripted or relied on scripts. It didn't even rely on exploiting a bug or some pcc command. I do, however still think the game would benefit from making all scripts relegated to the test server and only truly universally accessible scripts allowed on the public server. And none of those scripts take advantage of remote resources like webservers
+1 to devising plans to kill bots ( i know...not a suggestion post)
but really, the origination for this bug post shouldnt matter... it shed light on something that should be fixed. Should it be a huge priority? no
but really, the origination for this bug post shouldnt matter... it shed light on something that should be fixed. Should it be a huge priority? no
The common thread I was referring to is paranoia.
When you drop your own armor to below 3% then deliberately sit next to the bot to deliberately try and cause it to be XX banned, that's exploitation of a bug. Don't pretend like it's not.
No it isn't. Unless you are suggesting /explode is not completely voluntary.
Nobody shot your bot. It made the choice to blow up next to a damaged player in the nfz. The only thing i exploited was your poor scripting which you say you already fixed so that particular strategy is over.
As far as inconsistancies with how /explode is penalized, i don't see why the suggested bug isn't that not only should it effect kos, it should have also triggered standing loss. Then, non voluntary ship explosions should be exempt and also never count as a player kill. That would fix your issue with this "bug" while not treating a voluntary and damage causing action like /explode like it is some accident.
Nobody shot your bot. It made the choice to blow up next to a damaged player in the nfz. The only thing i exploited was your poor scripting which you say you already fixed so that particular strategy is over.
As far as inconsistancies with how /explode is penalized, i don't see why the suggested bug isn't that not only should it effect kos, it should have also triggered standing loss. Then, non voluntary ship explosions should be exempt and also never count as a player kill. That would fix your issue with this "bug" while not treating a voluntary and damage causing action like /explode like it is some accident.
What he's pointing out is that this behavior of the game is inconsistent with other behaviors of the game concerning ship explosions and that the inconsistency can be exploited to cause the player who is killed to be penalized even if they never fired a shot.
Ship explosions don't trigger the NFZ or cause standing loss, so why should they count towards the (recently added) 3-strikes 24hr KOS?
Ship explosions don't trigger the NFZ or cause standing loss, so why should they count towards the (recently added) 3-strikes 24hr KOS?
/explode should count for all those things. Getting exploded shouldn't. I would argue that the "bug" (and 3 strike 24 KOS is 11 months old, so stretching recent here) is that they didn't fully differentiate between turning your ship into a bomb willingly and getting shot to death by another player/npc.
it would make more sense and be far more in line with intended behavior to treat them differently and to penalize one and not the other than to not penalize either while at the same time continue to treat explosions as an acceptable (and rewarded) means of killing ships.
the NFZ and it's associated penalties along with faction standing penalties are meant to punish offensive actions and turning your ship into a bomb, while ineffectual is still an offensive action that is entirely up to pilot's discretion to instigate.
it would make more sense and be far more in line with intended behavior to treat them differently and to penalize one and not the other than to not penalize either while at the same time continue to treat explosions as an acceptable (and rewarded) means of killing ships.
the NFZ and it's associated penalties along with faction standing penalties are meant to punish offensive actions and turning your ship into a bomb, while ineffectual is still an offensive action that is entirely up to pilot's discretion to instigate.
the NFZ and it's associated penalties along with faction standing penalties are meant to punish offensive actions and turning your ship into a bomb, while ineffectual is still an offensive action that is entirely up to pilot's discretion to instigate.
Incorrect.
NFZ and other faction related penalties are in place to prevent griefing (of newbs, in particular). They are merely regulations put in place to help guide, however loosely, the type of gameplay that occurs. Same thing with no friendly fire in capitol stations, with defensive turrets, etc etc.
Nobody griefs with /explode. Presumably the devs saw the utility of self-destructing and preferred to not penalize people for using it, since it doesn't really have the potential of hurting others in any major way.
Incorrect.
NFZ and other faction related penalties are in place to prevent griefing (of newbs, in particular). They are merely regulations put in place to help guide, however loosely, the type of gameplay that occurs. Same thing with no friendly fire in capitol stations, with defensive turrets, etc etc.
Nobody griefs with /explode. Presumably the devs saw the utility of self-destructing and preferred to not penalize people for using it, since it doesn't really have the potential of hurting others in any major way.
it's hardly for griefing only new players. It's for negating station camping in general. The faction standing penalty system is likewise, not just to keep people from griefing newbies but for providing value to gaining standing with factions as it helps any player gain some amount of safety when they're protected by such penalties.
Cap system no-same-nation-damage is the only thing that doesn't fit the punishment of offensive actions "laws" prevalent in all factions but Corvus.
If the devs resolve this issue by making /explode cause all the same penalties as shooting someone then there is total conformity with action and consequence. As is, there isn't and if /explode is made to cause no punishment but still cause damage and death then there's even less conformity.
Whatever they decide to do though, will effect exactly no real people. It's been the way it is now for almost a year and the only person to be effected by any aspect of /explode within a protected system is a bot that didn't know any better.
Cap system no-same-nation-damage is the only thing that doesn't fit the punishment of offensive actions "laws" prevalent in all factions but Corvus.
If the devs resolve this issue by making /explode cause all the same penalties as shooting someone then there is total conformity with action and consequence. As is, there isn't and if /explode is made to cause no punishment but still cause damage and death then there's even less conformity.
Whatever they decide to do though, will effect exactly no real people. It's been the way it is now for almost a year and the only person to be effected by any aspect of /explode within a protected system is a bot that didn't know any better.