Forums » Suggestions

Trident changes and considerations

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Nov 13, 2013 NC-Crusader link
I guess I will get labeled as a "Carebear", but I don't care. I have a Trident and am extremely upset that the Devs would even consider any weapon or suggestion that would permit a Rat to solo kill my Dent. I routinely fly without any gunners, except self, which is more necessary now that any ship carried takes up so much cargo room. We had a Trident battle and were going to allow 2 players on as gunners with Taurs for Repping only (listed at 300 cu each). We quickly discovered that the most we could carry on an empty Dent was 2 Hogs (at 200 cu each).

When attacked, I WILL release a mass of Gems and Crackers to anyone that will follow. If the attacker does not want to face the Gems and Crackers, they can break off the attack. They do not have to be able to Destroy every ship that flies. I have course plotted and fire while on the run. It is the only way to avoid destruction. There is no listing anywhere that says a Trident must be a fighting ship. It is up to the builder as to what they use their ship for and if we choose cargo over fighting, it is our choice.

Since our cargo has been reduced due to any ship we carry, I for one am very upset. If we get the ability to leave the ship and dock at a station, it will help a lot, but not if our ships becomes a defenseless target. If the capt leaves Dent and is destroyed, he needs to be sent back to the Trident which is his home as long as he has the Trident out. If it is not set up that way, fix it to where we can "Home Station" in out Dents when flying. Another needed feature would be ability to Dock the Dents at stations other than Latos M-7. If Dent stays flying when Capt logs out, we would have to fly back to M-7 every time to avoid getting it destroyed. We did not build them for that purpose.

Also, while looking at what to do the Dent, Devs also need to consider the HAC and Connie as the same problems will arise with them.
Nov 13, 2013 csgno1 link
I'm not opposed to ammo limits but there needs to be enough to be able to go someplace. I suggest not revisiting ammo limits until all the capital stations are in place.
Nov 13, 2013 abortretryfail link
jesus you guys like to whine about how bad capships are. no other ship lets you constantly have 13-14 missiles missing a person the entire time they are shooting you

FTFY

Also, Behemoths and Atlases can do it too. They also have the benefit of being much faster, better armed, and capable of "dodging."
Nov 13, 2013 peytros link
They hit people just fine arf please try to leave your overly emotional arguments out of this. If they were so bad they wouldn't be the go to weapon for trident defense.
Nov 13, 2013 abortretryfail link
I'd use something else but, you know... Slim pickins: http://vo-wiki.com/wiki/Weapons:Turret

Anyway, the go-to weapon for Trident defense is the BioCom Miniature Teller-Ulam mine, but since you only get 2 shots, you try not to waste them.
Nov 13, 2013 Pizzasgood link
NC-Crusader: Dude. It's just a ship. It's not like you have to rebuild the damn thing. This is Vendetta, and ships die. Get over it. As for the persistence, if you don't like leaving the ship helpless in space for a long time, then don't. Park it in a station. Okay, right at this moment the only station it will conveniently fit into is in Latos, but that's just a temporary thing, and again, you knew what you were getting into when you built an unfinished prototype ship. Deal with it. Stick it in an empty sector, far from the jump in point. This isn't rocket science.
Nov 13, 2013 TheRedSpy link
They do not have to be able to Destroy every ship that flies.

You are wrong. Tridents must be destructible like every other ship.

thanks to TRS framing everything as a guild-politics / play-style issue

It may be your (sensible) practice to ignore all guild politics discussion but this is a guild politics/playstyle issue. Not only are the complaints about Tridents premature as it has been explained that this is a work in progress, but they are clearly on the basis that it should remain preferentially beneficial to a certain play-style that has developed where tridents are a free pass to avoid combat. You know this, and you are working hard to change it. On behalf of the rest of us, thank you!

The guild that shall not be named are over in their forums overtly trying as hard as they can to think up ways they can lobby and influence development in ways that are favorable to them including posting as many threads like this as possible. I am merely calling it for what it is.
Nov 13, 2013 csgno1 link
Sorry to break in to the conversation but I have a suggestion.

If a trident owner can give a key to someone so that that person can take the ship for a while, I think the owner will need to have some way to find out where the ship is located.
Nov 14, 2013 incarnate link
I have a Trident and am extremely upset that the Devs would even consider any weapon or suggestion that would permit a Rat to solo kill my Dent.

I did what now? Is this a reference to the previous Avalon thread or something? Let's not jump to conclusions about what I am, or am-not, going to do. I've also said we're going to try and get shields going and other things.

If the capt leaves Dent and is destroyed, he needs to be sent back to the Trident which is his home as long as he has the Trident out.

I talked to Ray about that earlier this week, and we are looking at how to go about that, allowing people to home on their Trident, and the like.

If a trident owner can give a key to someone so that that person can take the ship for a while, I think the owner will need to have some way to find out where the ship is located.

Yup, I agree, and have been thinking about that for awhile.
Nov 14, 2013 incarnate link
It may be your (sensible) practice to ignore all guild politics discussion but this is a guild politics/playstyle issue.

I'm well aware that there are many different motivations for many groups of players, I've only been dealing with that for a decade. But I will not accept that polarized political rhetoric has to pollute my forum's gameplay discussions.

If a given post is not contributing to the discussion of gameplay itself, and instead is attacking the poster or their motivations.. DO NOT MAKE IT. We're here to discuss gameplay, and that's it. I do not care who thinks who is a carebear, or who did what to whom.. I am only here for direct points and counter-points related to the implementation specifics of the topic at hand.
Nov 14, 2013 TheRedSpy link
Well i'm afraid I can't agree, the politics is, has and always will be a good part of the game-play, perhaps the best part and its inherent in everything here.

I have no more to say on tridents at the moment, I want to wait and see what you create before I criticize it with transparently political rhetoric.
Nov 14, 2013 Harbinger1 link
You're putting up a straw man argument. Drop that and address the implementation instead.
Nov 14, 2013 incarnate link
Well i'm afraid I can't agree, the politics is, has and always will be a good part of the game-play, perhaps the best part and its inherent in everything here.

People are welcome to silently disagree all they want, or post whatever political stuff they desire in Role Playing, Off-Topic and Community Projects (at least up to a point); but keep it out of the gameplay discussions in General, Suggestions and Bugs. Pointless name-calling does not help any thread, and it gives me a headache. These are my forums, my patience is somewhat diminished these days, and I require a reasonable signal-to-noise ratio in these threads.. especially during this time of increased change.

I will enforce this as necessary.
Nov 14, 2013 TheRedSpy link
You're putting up a straw man argument. Drop that and address the implementation instead.

What implementation? We haven't seen the full implementation yet and all criticism so far has just been meaningless complaining about "rats". This is my understanding of the intended development path of Tridents as sourced from various dev posts over the course of the last few weeks:

Immediately:

- Ships occupy cargo space
- Persistency: Tridents will not vanish in the absence of their pilots
- Undocking from tridents will be possible thanks to the above two changes (I assume a mechanism for selecting a ship in cargo to pilot will be possible)
- Selected stations will be given the capacity to dock tridents (subject to modelling artwork etc..)

In the future:

- Proper weaponry, capital swarms and capgauss
- Shields

So yes, they received an interim nerf and yes they will no longer ever be able to carry 1400cu but this is all necessary so they become widely useful to everyone.

That said - balance is important. I've built around 5 capships in teams and I know how much effort is involved. It's a real effort but nothing justifies immunity from piracy or combat. Smaller pilots of ships need to be provided with the tools to successfully take down a trident even as a solo pilot in some circumstances if they have put in the effort to prepare a proper ambush.

Why go to all this trouble of having a beautiful skill based combat system where quick actions in the heat of the moment can be the difference between success of failure just to sit back and go "well this ship shouldn't be able to beat this ship, and this one shouldnt be able to solo this ship". It just seems silly.

We have already talked to death about the gameplay of tridents. Let the man finish implementing features before complaining about the "rats" and their "advantage".
Nov 14, 2013 incarnate link
What implementation? We haven't seen the full implementation yet and all criticism so far has just been meaningless complaining about "rats".

No.. there've been some useful points in this thread, like the concept of how a pilot-less Trident might have some protection when in a NFZ. Or raising the question of how people will be re-spawned and if they'll be Homed in their Trident, or how they'll locate their trident after loaning it to someone else, and so on. There's merit to discussing this stuff. Yes, we're still working on it, but I'm not opposed to implementation-specific ideas and feedback.

But that's exactly the kind of signal-to-noise ratio I'm talking about. I'm trying to respond to what cogent content I can find in any respective player feedback, and you're seizing-on and elevating the more trivial aspects. Who cares if they're ranting about "rats", or "traders" for that matter, I certainly don't. I'm just interested in what actual gameplay points they might bring up.. even if they're scattered through a more emotional missive. If we focus on the content that is of value, and ignore the content that is obviously not of value, then things proceed in a useful direction and I don't get a headache.
Nov 14, 2013 TheRedSpy link
Do you intend on enabling homing in tridents? Aren't you worried about adding the ability to 'teleport' into any sector from halfway across the universe. Current protocol for moving ships is as follows:

- Home in source station, buy ship
- Move to destination station, explode ec89
- Repeat.

If I have two tridents and I loan one to Mr. Chaos and the other one to Sanan and I tell Mr. Chaos to patrol Edras I-2 and Sanan to take his to Latos H-2, are you intending on letting me decide which trident I can respawn in and magically teleport to? Or are you going to just let us pick one as home station in which case I can sit in Latos H-2 and if something shows up in Edras I-2 I can just /explode and appear there in two seconds.

Even if it is the latter, I could put two tridents, one on each separate alt. I could lend them out to each of my buddies then wherever the action occurs I can pick an alt and then appear in seconds at one of the two locations.

Don't you think this ruins the immersion a little too much? Mobile spawn points?
Nov 14, 2013 abortretryfail link
Mobile spawn points with extremely limited ship and weapon options? Who cares?

There's already a station in each system you could just as easily home at and do the "EC warp" to like people have been doing for ages...
Nov 14, 2013 TheRedSpy link
That's true, it isnt much different from what we have now except you're choosing which specific location in space you get to re-spawn from. I don't really care either way it just seems like that is the most prominent use case for the feature.
Nov 14, 2013 greenwall link
/me looks forward to seeing some enforcement.
Nov 14, 2013 csgno1 link
If we will (may) be respawning in a trident, is this only for owners so that we could at least drive the trident to m7 or will we be able to buy an ec89 in the trident?

If anyone could choose to respawn in a trident that they have a ride-along key for, they will need to be able to leave it. (or not, this could be a good reason not to :)

If I borrow a trident and am driving around in it, but can leave, I might want to respawn in it.

I see lots of potential issues.

Whatever you decide I look forward to playing with new stuff :)