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Raynes Thoughts - Trade

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Aug 17, 2004 Spellcast link
<<I'll put it to you another way. In the game it's very clear where enemies are. The level and type is shown on the map. Now I'm going to change it. From now on, when looking at the nav map, all areas that have enemies in them will simply say the word enemies.No type, no level.>>

Go to a grey star or to a nation that you are not friendly with and look at your nav map. it doesen't even tell you where there are enemies.

<<When a fighter goes into the area and start hunting they will have no clue what they are going up against.>>

This is how it actually works right now in sectors outside of the known universe.

<<To find out they have to actually kill things.>>
press "U" when you enter a sector

<< It gets worse. Lets say they kill a level 1 pirate drone. Does that mean it's a level 1 area? No. Each drones level is dynamic. So the next one could be a level 40 drone. >>
You are working under the assumption that the current economy is set until release. I assume that the devs will disperse the cargos more intuitively at some point before then.
EG mining stations will need mining tools, and sell ores.
Manufacturing stations will want ores and sell products.
research stations will want products but sell weapons components and high tech goods.
military and barracks stations will want weapons components, and high tech goods, not sell much but have better military gear for sale.
Orbitals will sell food and want products and high tech goods.
commerce stations will have a hodgepodge of just about everything,
everyone will want food except orbitals, and all stations that dont make them will want luxury goods in amounts that vary based on size.
Thus the economy wont be random, merely dynamic. you seem to have
your terms mixed up. dynamic means changing under a set of rules. currently the economy is dynamic but the cargoes are scattered more or less randomly.

<<Also under this new system we are going to say the only xp a fighter gets is if the enemy is at their level or higher.>>
I'd say if the enemy is >= the fighters level, full XP; from 50% to 99% of the fighters level half XP, and less than 50% of the fighters level no XP. I'd prefer to see it this way. with access to level 10 weapons a drone 1 is not a challenge at all.

<<So now all fighters have to go into a field killing everything in the hope they get some xp. Sound fair? How would it stand if fighters had no idea where to hunt or what they were hunting until it was killed? How would it stand if a 25, 50, or 75% of what they killed got them no xp?>>

I've more or less answered this above, besides, no matter what you are going for, fighting or trade, missions are still going to be the best way to level up. if you dont believe me ask elderad about getting to level 12 by botting when the advanced combat missions were broken.

EDIT i'm pressed for time (read late for work) so i'll clean this up and organize my ideas better when i get home in, uhh 12 hours.
Aug 17, 2004 raynes link
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Go to a grey star or to a nation that you are not friendly with and look at your nav map. it doesen't even tell you where there are enemies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ok, but as you are hunting more you start to learn where enemies are. What types and levels, do you not? Trade will not work this way (as far as I understand it).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
When a fighter goes into the area and start hunting they will have no clue what they are going up against.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There is a general idea though.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
To find out they have to actually kill things.
press "U" when you enter a sector
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So you can hit a key and have it tell you what is being bought and sold at a station, and the prices associated with that? No? Well since we were making the process of getting combat xp on par with that of the process of getting trade xp, that key would have to be removed.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are working under the assumption that the current economy is set until release. I assume that the devs will disperse the cargos more intuitively at some point before then.
EG mining stations will need mining tools, and sell ores.
Manufacturing stations will want ores and sell products.
research stations will want products but sell weapons components and high tech goods.
military and barracks stations will want weapons components, and high tech goods, not sell much but have better military gear for sale.
Orbitals will sell food and want products and high tech goods.
commerce stations will have a hodgepodge of just about everything,
everyone will want food except orbitals, and all stations that dont make them will want luxury goods in amounts that vary based on size.
Thus the economy wont be random, merely dynamic. you seem to have
your terms mixed up. dynamic means changing under a set of rules. currently the economy is dynamic but the cargoes are scattered more or less randomly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't have my terms mixed up. If station x needs a large amount of beans it sets the price it will pay high giving a good profit. Lots of pilots suddenly swamp the station with bean shipments. Station no longer offers to pay decently because they have enough beans. That is how the economy was explained to work once fully in place. Because of this system there is no way to tell in advance what a station will buy something for. The amount of profit to be made changes with the needs of the station.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'd say if the enemy is >= the fighters level, full XP; from 50% to 99% of the fighters level half XP, and less than 50% of the fighters level no XP. I'd prefer to see it this way. with access to level 10 weapons a drone 1 is not a challenge at all.
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The point was that they wouldn't know what xp they were getting until after they killed the enemy. Just like in trade you don't know what price you will get until you actually travel to the station to find out.

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I've more or less answered this above, besides, no matter what you are going for, fighting or trade, missions are still going to be the best way to level up. if you dont believe me ask elderad about getting to level 12 by botting when the advanced combat missions were broken.
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If missions are the better way to level up or not isn't really the issue, I have no doubt that is the case. The issue is that if you decide to take the route of a fighter you can go out and randomally kill things (outside of a mission) and get xp. You can do this with some general idea of where you need to go to kill things that will earn you decent xp. Trade is not this way. You HAVE to take a mission and there is no way for you to know what bases offer better profit than others because it changes.
Aug 17, 2004 FutureRuler link
How about exp proportional to the net amount of money made on the sale? I think this would make sense gameplay-wise, though it might be hard to implement.
Aug 17, 2004 Spellcast link
raynes, looks like we are just going to continue to disagree about this.

Here's a very basic concept that i wish to see in the final game. If it isn't there, I would be very dissapointed.

To gain XP, you MUST do something SUCCESSFULLY.
If you make a trade run and you do not make a profit, you HAVE NOT SUCCEDED, therefore you do not deserve a reward.

Lets look at this from the other side of the coin for a moment. You are saying that attempting to trade should give you XP because you have invested time and effort into it. Why dont we adjust the combat model to fit that game mechanic for a moment instead of the way you are suggesting the combat relates to the current model.

I buy my ship, fly to a sector where i know there are bots and open fire. I miss by a mile and a half, and 10 bots swoop into attack me. for the next 15 minutes i dodge and twist through streams of fire, desperately trying to kill 1 of the attackers, eventually dying without scoring a single kill. By your logic I TRIED to kill the bots, therefore i should get XP for it. I didnt know i was going to die when i left the station, i thought i'd succeed at blowing them up.

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Ok now that we've both made really silly arguments about how the combat model relates to our case, lets look at a few facts.

1) trade is not as much of a guessing game as you think. If you take a few days you can map the universe and find out which stations sell what. It's tedius and boring, but it can be done. (and yes i did do this, i made it through almost all the sectors except the itani ones before my eyes rolled up into the back of my head and i passed into a comotose state)
2) if you get to a station and the cargo isn't going to sell well, YOU DONT HAVE TO SELL IT. take it somewhere else. You are not gaurenteed a profit on every trade run you make, sometimes you have to scout around to find the best sale.
3) if you have found a good trade route, and someone bombs it out from under you (BTW this takes approximately 100 wigits to drop a trade route from double your money to base cost, thats a lot of trading) Then they will have recieved the XP since they succeded at what they are doing.
On that note, since it is only likely that another player will be able to kill a trade route, you are relating the combat analogy to the wrong set of circumstances. IF two players are fighting, only 1 of them gets the XP, the one who wins. If someone else gets the trade route knocked down before you do, they won.
Aug 18, 2004 raynes link
If you take a good from one station to the next, you have successfully transported that item from one place to another. You buy it at one place and you sell it at another. There is completion of an action. In your example of trying to kill the bots, you don't complete an action. You can't give xp for something where no action is done.

Also with the present universe you can indeed do as you say, map out what stations sell what. However you are not going to be able to do that with 7000+ of them.

The problem with tieing it to a set amount of profit (200%) just that it is not possible. It's not possible because there is no way for a player to plan out how they are going to get xp to get a new license level. They won't be able to map out a trade route because the trade routes will change. The only thing you are going to do is get a lot of angry and frustrated players.

Now you could tie it to making a profit period. Base the amount of xp on the amount of profit you get. So if you sell something at a 10% profit you get 5xp per item, 50% 20xp per item, 200% 40xp per item. A system like that would work, setting it a min profit to get xp will not.
Aug 18, 2004 Celkan link
Spellcast, raynes:

Either stop bickering or take it to email.

We're sick of it.
Aug 18, 2004 harvestmouse link
after reading this (looong) thread...

For the nations you serve, you can get a faction increase and xp raise by randomly killing their bots, without taking a combat mission. The xp raise isn't fast, and is only limited to the weapon type you used to kill the bot. The nation standing rises in increments noticeably smaller, compared to standing increase from trade.

For the factions and corporations out there tho, you can't raise your standing without taking missions. Faction standing translates into better profit from trade -and- special equipment. Not to mention protection in monitored space! (if you had fairly good standing with TPG and kill a gold newb pirate, you're KOS , hunted, and can't dock there again. so protection is something to be reckoned with.) Trading is required for getting good engines and ships too; you can't be a good fighter if you don't trade.
vice versa, you can't trade without fighting once in a while; guess to play vendetta you have to do a little bit of everything. =D
Aug 19, 2004 incarnate link
Hi, it's 4am and I'm not going to make a lengthy reply. Yes, you should get XP from trading *without* a mission. No, you don't right now. Connecting XP with profit, in some way (perhaps simply as a bonus) strikes me as a good thing, as those who are better at finding trade routes (which, while dynamic, are not exactly Random) would get some benefit from that. Much as how in combat someone like me, or any of the other vets, can destroy a lot of bots without having to go repair anywhere, and gain XP more quickly as a result.

Anyway, my brain is too sleep-deprived to fully cogitate and comment on the subject, or make a very articulate reply, and I haven't thought all this through at all. I just wanted to let you know that I read this and we'll Make It Better. And Stuff.
Aug 19, 2004 raynes link
Thanks for the reply! Very good to know the xp bit will change. :)
Aug 19, 2004 paedric link
The Great and Powerful OZ... *cough* erm... The Great and Powerful Incarnate has spoken.