Forums » Suggestions
Mass as it applies to weapon balance
All in all i like the new mass system, having your ship get heavier as you put more equipment on it is nice, and having the centaur take a kilometer and a half to change direction when fully loaded with ore is sweet.
However, the weapons need to be looked at.
The first few small port weapons are ok, the Neutron 1 and 2 are pretty good, and the S-port homers have a decent balance of mass and effectiveness.
The gauss cannons are far too heavy. 1200 for a gauss is just too high, Its only a little bit better damage wise than the neutron 2, but its twice the weight. I think the gauss cannons could be lowered to 750 mass.
The Iceflares and Starflares are far too heavy, as weapons systems go they werent very useful before the mass was added. Iceflares particularly could be reduced to 200 to 300 mass, which would give them a use as a light, no energy weapon.
Most of the L-port weapons have a mass of 1200 or more. IMO Much too high for the amount of damage they do. I'd like to see that Plasma Dev and the Plasm Dev 2 at 600 and 700 mass respectively, the Gatling and the Gatling turret at 500 and 700.
The L-port rockets and homers seem ok, tho perhaps both the jackhammers and the screamers could loose about 100 mass each.
The locust swarms are good, and the chaos swarms could actually get bumped up another 500 mass to 2500, just to slow those silly dual swarm rags down a bit more.
Which brings me to the item i truly think is broken, the neutron 3. For the amount of damage it does, the speed of its shot, it is far too light. I know its supposed to be a special weapon, but a ship can mount 3 of them for the weight of a single N-2, which is the nearest comparable weapon. Double its mass to 400 at least, tho i think it would be better at 500 or 550.
Incidentally, why is the special weapon so itani-friendly. The only ship the serco can get that can mount 3 or more s-ports is the hornet, which is not even close to a match for the valk.
The prom is so heavy that the small mass of the N-3 does it no good, and the Serco Gaurdian Vulture, while a good challenge for the valk, is by no means on an even playing field with only 2 s-ports.
Perhaps we could have a second special weapon for the serco instead of the n3's. Something for for the large port. A better AGT or maybe a Plasma Dev with a faster shot speed. Something that could be mounted on the prometheous to help even out the difference.
Last item, with the CtC reward weapons. Somehow make it so they cant be stockpiled, otherwise it wont matter who won the last round, because on saturday morning whichever side is loosing will just buy up a whole bunch of them. Right now most of the Serco still have N3's in storage, which is probably not what the devs had in mind with the CtC reward idea.
However, the weapons need to be looked at.
The first few small port weapons are ok, the Neutron 1 and 2 are pretty good, and the S-port homers have a decent balance of mass and effectiveness.
The gauss cannons are far too heavy. 1200 for a gauss is just too high, Its only a little bit better damage wise than the neutron 2, but its twice the weight. I think the gauss cannons could be lowered to 750 mass.
The Iceflares and Starflares are far too heavy, as weapons systems go they werent very useful before the mass was added. Iceflares particularly could be reduced to 200 to 300 mass, which would give them a use as a light, no energy weapon.
Most of the L-port weapons have a mass of 1200 or more. IMO Much too high for the amount of damage they do. I'd like to see that Plasma Dev and the Plasm Dev 2 at 600 and 700 mass respectively, the Gatling and the Gatling turret at 500 and 700.
The L-port rockets and homers seem ok, tho perhaps both the jackhammers and the screamers could loose about 100 mass each.
The locust swarms are good, and the chaos swarms could actually get bumped up another 500 mass to 2500, just to slow those silly dual swarm rags down a bit more.
Which brings me to the item i truly think is broken, the neutron 3. For the amount of damage it does, the speed of its shot, it is far too light. I know its supposed to be a special weapon, but a ship can mount 3 of them for the weight of a single N-2, which is the nearest comparable weapon. Double its mass to 400 at least, tho i think it would be better at 500 or 550.
Incidentally, why is the special weapon so itani-friendly. The only ship the serco can get that can mount 3 or more s-ports is the hornet, which is not even close to a match for the valk.
The prom is so heavy that the small mass of the N-3 does it no good, and the Serco Gaurdian Vulture, while a good challenge for the valk, is by no means on an even playing field with only 2 s-ports.
Perhaps we could have a second special weapon for the serco instead of the n3's. Something for for the large port. A better AGT or maybe a Plasma Dev with a faster shot speed. Something that could be mounted on the prometheous to help even out the difference.
Last item, with the CtC reward weapons. Somehow make it so they cant be stockpiled, otherwise it wont matter who won the last round, because on saturday morning whichever side is loosing will just buy up a whole bunch of them. Right now most of the Serco still have N3's in storage, which is probably not what the devs had in mind with the CtC reward idea.
[Edit] This is off topic nit-picking, feel free to ignore it. I'm just killing time at work. [/edit]
"The only ship the serco can get that can mount 3 or more s-ports is the hornet"
Can't Serco get the Valk or Maud, if they get high enough Itani or UIT standing? That was my understanding anyway. If your point is that you can't PvP and maintain a high enough standing to get the other factions special ships, then I can see your point, although I'd say to choose your enemies wisely.
"The only ship the serco can get that can mount 3 or more s-ports is the hornet"
Can't Serco get the Valk or Maud, if they get high enough Itani or UIT standing? That was my understanding anyway. If your point is that you can't PvP and maintain a high enough standing to get the other factions special ships, then I can see your point, although I'd say to choose your enemies wisely.
Valk is an Itani ship, and although its very possible for us to get hold of one (albeit not from UIT) it is very difficult when it comes to CTC. It would take me days botting/trading in itani space to buy a valk, and as i have already taken part in lots of ctc, my itani standing was at one point -1000. (You get a faction hit for killing the convoy)
So although your point is valid, it again is uneven - itani need 8/9combat, thats it, Serco either have to trade up for valent/itani, without loosing any standing, and get level 8/9. A good suggestion would be to make the valk not an itani only ship, ie a faction like corvus could have a varient, or axia, or somebody not involved with CTC.
[Back on Topic]
I agree the tach 3 is a little unbalanced when it comes to mass, but i dont think it needs increasing, i think mass in general just needs re-balancing. If the other weapons were brought more inline and the tach 3 still seems unbalanced? add 50k or so =)
So although your point is valid, it again is uneven - itani need 8/9combat, thats it, Serco either have to trade up for valent/itani, without loosing any standing, and get level 8/9. A good suggestion would be to make the valk not an itani only ship, ie a faction like corvus could have a varient, or axia, or somebody not involved with CTC.
[Back on Topic]
I agree the tach 3 is a little unbalanced when it comes to mass, but i dont think it needs increasing, i think mass in general just needs re-balancing. If the other weapons were brought more inline and the tach 3 still seems unbalanced? add 50k or so =)
Beolach:
Sure, why don't we move the valk to be only accessible after you've gotten +800 with a random faction as well? Hmm, doesn't it appeal to you?
since if you participate in CtC and attack either bots of transport, you lose the standing with itani, which once more brings you down to levels without the valkyre.
-
Weapons:
I'd actually want to see the sunflares taken down to about 500, the iceflares and starflares 100 repsective 200 less, and their ammo upped to the level of the sunflare, so the only tradeoff would be a bit speed and damage radius for the weight, giving them a more balanced handicap.
Jackhammers:
Should probably move themselves down the slider of weapons, 800-900 or so.
Gemini: Need another 150 weight, as to be just slightly heavier than the "dumb" sunflare. (removes some of the use for a cheapo-swarm hornet)
An interesting experiment would be to bring the Gatling Cannon down to about 200 weight.. Why? simply to encourage its use some more. Its a worthless gun at the moment, and perhaps it would make people run around in hogs spraying orange junk around itself ;)
Sure, why don't we move the valk to be only accessible after you've gotten +800 with a random faction as well? Hmm, doesn't it appeal to you?
since if you participate in CtC and attack either bots of transport, you lose the standing with itani, which once more brings you down to levels without the valkyre.
-
Weapons:
I'd actually want to see the sunflares taken down to about 500, the iceflares and starflares 100 repsective 200 less, and their ammo upped to the level of the sunflare, so the only tradeoff would be a bit speed and damage radius for the weight, giving them a more balanced handicap.
Jackhammers:
Should probably move themselves down the slider of weapons, 800-900 or so.
Gemini: Need another 150 weight, as to be just slightly heavier than the "dumb" sunflare. (removes some of the use for a cheapo-swarm hornet)
An interesting experiment would be to bring the Gatling Cannon down to about 200 weight.. Why? simply to encourage its use some more. Its a worthless gun at the moment, and perhaps it would make people run around in hogs spraying orange junk around itself ;)
Ok, I really didn't mean to disagree with anyone about the Valk being unbalanced. I was just nitpicking at that one line, that Serco can't get any 3+ s-port ships other than the Hornet. Serco *can* get other 3+ s-port ships. It is possible for Serco to get the Valk, and even discarding it, there's also the Maud that is a 3 s-port ship that it is possible for Serco to get. Heck, even the Rag has 3 s-ports, and you can't tell me it's not available to Serco. And really I was just wasting time here at work... should have known that would get me in trouble.
Now to try to get back on topic... I usually stay out of this type of discussion (should have this time too), because I really don't have that strong of an opinion on most balance issues. But since I'm here, one thing that I'd like to see (yes, it has been mentioned before) that would help with both weapon balance and realism would be if ammo had mass, which your ship lost as it fired the ammo.
Now to try to get back on topic... I usually stay out of this type of discussion (should have this time too), because I really don't have that strong of an opinion on most balance issues. But since I'm here, one thing that I'd like to see (yes, it has been mentioned before) that would help with both weapon balance and realism would be if ammo had mass, which your ship lost as it fired the ammo.
Agree with everything you said Spider...
Very good ideas fellas and good points about the ships and weapons Spellcast.
(minor flameyness deleted of my own accord, i need to wake up before posting from now on)
Spider, I specifically didnt change the mass of the sunflare because i'd like to see the other mass changes take effect first, se what the balance is, adjust those and then fit the sunflares in afterwards. They were uber once, I'd rathar not see them become so again so i'd like to see the balance tested on the lesser rockets, then scaled for the flare. (tho upping the ice and star ammo to 16 wouldnt hurt either)
Hmm I can also see the Gatling cannon reduced to 200 mass, and then make it a level 1 heavy weapon just to give the L-ports a heavy weapon to bot with at low level. (it'll teach the noobs how to aim a bit too)
Spider, I specifically didnt change the mass of the sunflare because i'd like to see the other mass changes take effect first, se what the balance is, adjust those and then fit the sunflares in afterwards. They were uber once, I'd rathar not see them become so again so i'd like to see the balance tested on the lesser rockets, then scaled for the flare. (tho upping the ice and star ammo to 16 wouldnt hurt either)
Hmm I can also see the Gatling cannon reduced to 200 mass, and then make it a level 1 heavy weapon just to give the L-ports a heavy weapon to bot with at low level. (it'll teach the noobs how to aim a bit too)
I agree wholeheartedly with everything Spider and Spellcast have said here.
Sunflares were only uber in tri-config. Singular they were/are useless. A dual config *was* balanced IMHO. However, with the current mass system all of the rocket configs are hopeless... Jackhammers are currently the most effective I have found, yet they are an L-Port weapon, only 12 ammo, heavy, and dish out less damage in practice than a couple of shots from a Neut3... You have to remember that the damage quoted in the stats for rockets is the absolute maximum, and they hardly ever cause that amount in practice...
It's no secret that I think that the balance has been busted from 3.2 onwards.