I realize that this is a PvP game but I think that some of the griefing is getting out of control. Especially people who kill their own faction members (you know who you are).

It's one thing to engage in PvP combat but it's another to stalk someone and continue to kill them over and over again preventing them from leaving the safety of a zone with a station. Or to kill newbies because you already have a bad rank with your own faction.

At least 6 people in the last month in the guild I'm in have quit Vendetta because of griefing and others have stated that it is an issue. I think that there should be greater repercussions for killing your own faction members or getting a very low rank with any faction. I think you should also get penalized more for killing newbies.

Ok, lets talk about this.

Killing one's own faction members is NOT griefing.

I'm guessing your guild is EnB, so I would discount the whole "we're leaving thing" cuz you guys have always been a little directionless.

Secondly, if you don't want to PvP STAY OUT OF GREY. No matter how many times I tell people this, there's always someone who gets offended that they got killed.

Newbies getting killed has not been a problem since beta

Pirates are a beautiful part of the game. So learn to fight us, learn to escape us, or learn to avoid us. THose are your options.

Good job with the ad hominem arguement. Not all of the incidents have been in grey space, so don't just say stay out of grey space.

Not everyone has 5 hours a day to play. People do not want to log on and then continously get killed by pirates with nothing better to do.

Point one:
Griefing is dead. Running away is pretty damn easy, and if you don't make it, you're now half a galaxy away from your assailant, free to go 'bout your business. Add to that the fact that the defbots keep the bad guy on the run if he decides to try station-camping, and what do you get? No more griefing! Woohoo!

Point two:
While piracy and pirates are no doubt a valid part of the game, they have absolutely no relation to the black lance, or whatever it is you people call yourselves today. You're a gang of arrogant narcissistic thugs, nothing more. The equivalent of modern day suburban teens running around in riced-out cars your parents bought for you calling yourselves kings of town and sharing stories about how you tricked the local convenience store clerk into selling you a pack of cigarettes.
Do I mind?
Not particularly. I do mind you bilge rats calling yourselves pirates and giving the real pirates a bad name. So, please. Stop.

What's the issue with killing members of your own nation? If we couldn't then how would the VPR's stop UIT pirates?

Also how are your guildies getting griefed? As Genka put it in the sensible part of his post, it's pretty much impossible.

The issue of killing people of your own nation is people like 0.

In particular, one member of BL comes to mind for an example. I offered free ore over general chat, first come first serve as I was grinding minding. The ore wasn't even the valuable stuff, just stuff like aqueous. This particular member felt the need to abuse my generosity and came and tried to pirate me. For more than my entire ship was worth. So they ended up blowing me up. In UIT space I might add. Not grey space.

0 is not a good example as if it was impossible to pirate people of your own nation he'd just be Serco or Itani instead.

As for the second, message me in game to tell me who it was. Not that we'll do anything about it. More just curiousity.

@genka: Hehe, I have to ask, who ARE the REAL pirates? Methinks your uberbus has gone to your head.

@damicatz: Would you feel more comfortable if the pirates were bots and not players that posed a risk?

Without risk, there's no fun to these games. And people are pirated so rarely that this is a non-issue.

randomly killing people isn't griefing.

secondly, if you announce your position on something like #100, well, you're making a calculated risk. if you desire to stay safe, make sure only people you trust know where you are.

apart from that, you were asked for more than your ship was worth. well duh. ships are dirt cheap. anyone who does trade or mining these days has no problems with money. and if someone asks you for money or they'll fire, sometimes, they're not empty threats.

my first two encounters with pirates were tramshed and Yoda, in that order. they both killed me. tram asked for money, I tried to run, was pretty clueless at the time, ate gauss. Yoda killed me as I was sitting still because I typed too slowly, and he was worried I'd done a /logoff. yes, at the time I was somewhat miffed at both events. but I got over it. death is cheap in vendetta. pirates ask for very little. I mean, most people ask for under 50K (some people are however asked for more). that's a decent trading mission these days. how about guilds pool money into a "pirate fund" where members can get refunded losses due to pirating? some insurance maybe?

that being said, during the last few attempts at pirating me[1], I haven't bothered paying, since it's almost impossible to get caught.

if you only play now and then, be aware that you're not _EVER_ protected against PvP in this game. be careful. protect yourself and your guildmates. inform them of this situation. let them know the risks they run and make them keep themselves safe.

(and if you're griding mining like that, you're doing it wrong.)

[1] yes, I'm BLAK. no that doesn't stop people from trying to pirate me.

Real griefing these days is dead. Back in beta, before there were station guards, people (and I'm not going to name names, arolte, so don't worry) would drop lightning mines outside the small ring stations and you wouldn't be able to leave no matter what you tried. Now imagine a player, let's call him arolte, doing this for three or four hours a day.

Or maybe we have a weapon that does a fairly large amounts of damage with a ridiculously huge blast radius. We'll call this weapon an "avalon torpedo." Now what if a group of players get together and launch volleys of these "avalon torpedoes" at the docking ports of a station so that anyone entering or exiting gets plastered. Now imagine half the players in the game doing this for several hours everyday.

THAT is griefing.

In a rare agreement with genka, I'm going to say that griefing as we knew it is dead. There really isn't griefing anymore. If a player starts to hunt for you, you can waypoint through a bunch of random sectors and end up at a wormhole. In any system, you'll have at least a 50% chance of getting to a wormhole that said player is trying to blockade, and if you're smart about it, you can elude him pretty easily by either jumping to the other wormhole, or jumping out and jumping back a little while later.

Simply sitting outside a station doesn't work so well anymore if the station has more than one docking port, because you never know which port the player will come out of, and said player can simply turbo away before you can catch him. And mining the exits doesn't work because the station guards will simply destroy the mines.

Now pirates, on the other hand, are running fairly rampant, but they're not out to grief you. They're not attacking and/or killing you out of malice (well usually not), but more for profit. If it's a major problem, you can always ask the Vipers to protect you and your cargo. Or you could pose as a cargo ship and attempt to waste any pirates who you may encounter >_> <_<.

I feel the need to say something here. Pirates are a large part of the fun of this game in my opinion. They add an unpredictable element to the game. As a matter of fact, if it wasn't for pirates, I might not be playing this game right now. The very first event that got me hooked on this game was when Icarus destroyed my harmless trading atlas back in Beta, outside a station. Was I upset? Yes. Did I complain? No. Instead, I geared up, botted, got my levels up, and went Icarus hunting for the next several months. He was quite elusive. After numerous skirmishes that resulted in my getting killed or my not being able to kill Icarus, it was quite a while after the release of the game that I finally caught him in a large battle and destroyed him, collecting his 2 million credit bounty. The name of the game ladies and gentlemen, Vendetta. It was the pirate, Icarus, killing me time and time again and my hunting him in return that resulted in my great enjoyment of this game. It adds unpredictability and excitement. Embrace the pirate! If you get killed by one, don't complain, gear up and go after him. Get your revenge! You may die many times before you finally kill him but the vengeance tastes so sweet. And you will have gotten that much better for it. I can not imagine how boring this game might be without pirates.

Here's to the pirates!

/me raises his glass

A note on Black Lance: They may be pirates, (yes I believe they are REAL pirates and quite honorable from my experiences with them... when they're not angry) but many are also mercenaries for hire. It can be quite fun to buy a wingman for the day and hunt that special someone down. Try it out!

and as said before, you can allways call for the vipers to eradicate all your rat problems. We are here for you :)

@genka: riced out cars?!?!? i drive a 1973 chevy nova thank you very much! no rice involved! all throttle and no bottle baby! :D

@the topic: griefing.... i don't ever remember that being an issue since the vast majority of my deaths are from fights that i have started. you try Shape hunting for most of your space piloting career and see how far you get! as friend ghost said, if you die, take up arms and go hunting! you may die a lot, but you will eventually be able to defend yourself, as well as be able to take out your aggressors. do onto others as others do onto you!

happy hunting everyone

I think this has something to do with me, and after killing the said EnB member ONCE in GREY SPACE, nowhere near the cureent CAP SHIP BATTLES (like they seemed to claim), and after making my intentions pretty damn clear in a hail, and a few swapped sector chat messages, they tried to turbo away, obvoisly not giving me my 20k donation (its all i ask, and i always remeber a payer, im sure other members of EnB can vouch for this) - and didnt make it.

If being killed once in grey space is your idea of griefing, then I think its about time for you to find a nice PvE game.

Yoda.

@damicatz "In particular, one member of BL comes to mind for an example. I offered free ore over general chat, first come first serve as I was grinding minding. The ore wasn't even the valuable stuff, just stuff like aqueous. This particular member felt the need to abuse my generosity and came and tried to pirate me. For more than my entire ship was worth. So they ended up blowing me up. In UIT space I might add. Not grey space." <-- That was me too right? Thats called Yoda's 101 in *Dont give out your location on channel 100* lots learn this lesson a lot harsher, and i wasnt in BL then. Oh and if it wasnt me, then it would have been if iI was online, broadcasting your location onto general chat is a very stupid idea, if you dont want to die, and FYI UIT space is almost as unsafe as grey, you want saftey? goto Itan, oh wait! I have attacked people there too.

I actualy agree on the harsher penalty for killing n00bs, the current combat loss is not enough. it should be quadrupled, but i still doubt that would stop it, especially in grey space.

Re: yodaofborg

> If being killed once in grey space is your idea of griefing, then I think its about
> time for you to find a nice PvE game.

Which game, though? And what if you have a Mac?

[off-topic]
I don't enjoy PvP myself, and really prefer PvE. IMHO, the competitive nature of PvP tends to attract immature players who go about making uncivilized claims about how other players are "only worth xy credits to the Z nation." For example, I recently witnessed a player who blew up another's ship in CtC, and later made a statement of this nature. IMHO, ridiculing another player for losing a battle in this manner isn't civilized behavior.

In contrast, PvE tends to attract mature team players who enjoy fighting together against a common enemy.

The problem is that there is a severe lack of high-quality PvE RPG's for the Mac. I've been searching for the past six months or so, but been unable to find anything, and been hoping for more PvE content in this game (NPC traders who might give secret trading missions, secret areas to explore, etc.). Some PvE content is actually starting to appear, which is a good start, but there's still more focus on PvP than on PvE.

Also, the exponential increase in required experience for gaining higher levels tends to work against the level-increasing fun aspect that could make VO more of an RPG. I recently had much more fun in starting a new alternate character and increasing its Combat Piloting License levels than in tediously killing hundreds of bots just to gain a single new such level with my original character. All other RPG's that I know of offer linear increases in required experience for additional levels, and rewards for achieving every few higher levels, not exponential required increases with last rewards at only Combat Piloting 9 and Trading and Commerce 13. It would help immensely with the PvE aspect if the required experience for new levels increased linearly, not exponentially, with additional rewards of some nature for every few levels.

I'd really like something similar to either Final Fantasy XI Online or EverQuest II for the Mac, but nothing similar seems to exist. These two RPG's aren't available for the Mac. Neither is EVE Online. World of Warcraft is too PvP-focused. Neverwinter Nights does not have realistic animated skies or very high-quality graphics. Geneforge 3 is not an online game, and although it has an excellent story and excellent (IMHO) turn-based gameplay, its graphics are even more primitive than those of NWN.
[/off-topic]

So, again, which game, yodaofborg? And don't even think about recommending a PC, since I used to use one and got tired of putting up with buggy, virus-infested Windows, and bought my PowerBook® just as much for its elegant appearance as for its reliability.

-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier

deku,

me wonders about guildwars (no advertising :D).

Anyway, as prolly known by a lot of people, I agree with everything that deku said although I engage in pvp. (unless I get pissed by getting blown up near stations by some swarmspammers or stuff like that).

However my point is that there will always be immature players (who will use swarmspamming, boast about how they rule(pirating is a sort of a boast), runners). It used to be that people left you alone if you didn't want to be harrassed (with the exception of 2-3 people), the rest was all consensual pvp in stead of this bs like ooh im in the mood for a fight lets go and pirate some noobs. I miss the hey x, you wanna have a fight. Y says, sure lets fight in sector Z. And even while you where fighting there nobody would interfere. Or just saying not hostile would mean nobody attacked you (with the exception of those same 2-3 people). Naturally as always your word is your honour. No honour and forget about this treatment.

Wars got announced and where held in a sector, but only people joining in the war were targetted, not the bypassers. Naturally it hasn't all been so nice etc.

But since the implementation of the pk medal, I have seen this behaviour go up. Since again, medals promote boasting behaviour (and yes I still want my ctc medal :D).

However, nothing can be done against this unless the people playing the game actually consider letting everybody have their fun is primordially more important then an individual having their fun by breaching on someone elses fun. but hey, lets not beleive in fairytales will we. Since there will never be a multiplayergame that eradicates all immature behaviour.

We can just hope that some people get a clue and let have to each their own.

cheers

Well, I would not consider my actions in vendetta immature, althoug as for never engaging in PVP, how about the time you swarm spammed me in Ukari A10 Deku? OK it was a while ago, but I was *passing by* actually botting in Serco space to increase my own faction standing.

As for pirating being immature, sure it is. So is running away crying *he killed me while i was repairing the friggy* when infact, you were not even in the same sector as the friggy.

Deku, point conceded, there is lots of room for PvE in this game, but what i suppose my point is, is that here this will always be side by side with PvP, and if you cannot accept this fact, your playing the wrong game.

This is just not griefing. If you're going to leave because of this, dami, don't let the door hit you on the way out. But hopefully you can see by now how ridiculous this all is.

Griefing is when you single out a player and deliberately ruin the game for them. Pirates simply make grey space more "interesting" to fly through, so you essentially have two options- either take the hits and learn from experience, or avoid grey space... One of those has a future, but how can you make a judgement if you cannot... play?

@yoda

harsher penalties for killing n00bs, yes, please. but, keep in mind that you can get the Rev C and neuts at combat 3. if you fly that combo, you can easily be a threat forever while never going over 3/3/2 or so, the only thing is that you might not manage to keep your trade low to get the rev c. :-p

at least make the penalty NULL in grey. I'm sick and tired of people with low levels attacking me in grey. I lost 3600 combat XP in the cap ship battles as two newbies came up to around 40m and let loose with energy and missiles. I've stopped letting them go due to the combat loss though. you open fire at me at that distance, you're asking for return fire. so, fine, you get it.

@Rene

I have surprisingly few problems with random attacks these days. usually declaring your intent to observe is enough. not declaring any intent and sitting in B8, you might get attacked. it doesn't happen that often and it's usually the same characters who'll do it. yes, it's annoying, yes, it's lame, but it's better than producing game mechanics to hinder PvP. you don't solve social problems with technology.

@deku

WoW is PvP focused? whow. I find WoW to be so PvE-related that I'd never bother playing it. and I don't see the same problems with communities as you do with Vendetta. PvP in this game has a very nice tone and a very nice side to it.

and Deku, what you play is your choice. if you don't want to play WoW or Neverwinter Nights, and you don't want to get a Windows box, and you're here. you're here. as are we. PvE is coming along, one thing that is good is the XP system, the increases aren't horrid, and there should be a big difference between 14 and 15, a lot more than between 10 and 11. yes, more rewards, more stuff for PvE, but, don't touch the PvP side. the freedom of Vendetta is a two-way street.

anyone who thinks anything else should listen to Vets or try to play a game where PvP _is_ mean.

Ok, you know, some of the gloves seem to be coming off here.

Accusing pvp'ers of being immature for pvping in the area designed for pvp is... well... immature.

(And please don't respond with "but some of the killing goes on in UIT space", its true some killing does happen, but its VERY rare, on par with getting killed by particularly aggressive roids.)

The argument that PvP'ers are immature for taking fun away from PvE'ers just does not hold water. By and large you can avoid us.

However, there will always be players that want the riches of grey. And THAT'S why people occasionally get killed. And that ALSO is the point. The nice rewards of grey go along with the risks associated.

I won't say I'm not proud of my kill count, I am. But I didn't get it by griefing thousands of n00bs. I got it mostly through fair fights, with some occasional piracy on the side. And the piracy was, in general, pretty hard too.

I like it because its risky. And because it's a kind of craft in a way that PvE currently isn't. There are only so many bots you can fight before you realize that its not skill, just a routine.

Perhaps PvE will become more interesting, but even if it does, you're always going to be fighting against AI, and short of some VERY intelligent programming, if you find a pattern that works, you've found a pattern that will always work.

(Why is it that the supposedly "mature" players that like PvE, tend to visit PvP battles with swarms? (EnB, I'm looking at you) why can't you guys just leave US alone. Cuz constantly coming back and harassing us, while getting angry at us for taking up roles as the risks of dangerous space seems like griefing to me.)

But honestly, I don't think I need to debate this any longer, the devs have REPEATEDLY stated the aim of grey space, as well as the dangers of UIT space. And it is clear that that danger has created roles for numerous players, such as the VPR's, or Trading guilds like TGFT which group up for protection.