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My views on the secondary effects Lord Q gives:
1. Yes, this is a negative effect of slowing moths down; however I think it's small enough that the positive effects outweigh it.
2. I don't agree that it would make trade missions any duller, rather the opposite. IMO trade missions are dull because they are too easy. I prefer a challenge. Making the Moth more vulnerable, either by reducing its speed or its armor, would increase the difficulty of trade missions, which would make them more interesting to me. And if the missions are more interesting, I'm not going to mind them taking somewhat longer.
3. If I were designing it, and I had to choose between one or the other, I would go with the more armor, less speed option rather than the high speed, less armor option, because the more armor it has, the more effective any escorts it has will be. I'll go into more detail on why I think that later. As for realism, when a Bank needs to physically move a large amount of money, what do they use? Armored trucks. Yes, that is rather the exception to the rule, as most stores don't use armored trucks to distribute their goods, and it is not very analogous, land trasportation is very different from the space-ships in VO. But it does show that the more valuable the cargo, the more armor people are going to want to pile on it, even if that means it won't be as fast. Anyway, I would say game balance does trump realism.
4. Heh, yeah, reducing speed does hinder the Moth's ability to escape, that's the whole point. But reducing the armor would hinder the Moth's ability to escape, as well. And I would see this as an improvement: right now, it's way, way too easy for the Moth to escape, again, I like a challenge. I should find the Moth much more fun to fly if it's escape was hindered somewhat.
For ammo weapons, yes the ammo is a concern. But unless the Moth is slowed down, I see time as a much bigger concern.
Answers to Lord Q's questions:
1. Because the less armor the Moth has, the less time the escort has to destroy the pirate before the pirate destroys the Moth. And the escort has to destroy the pirate before the pirate destroys the Moth, "keeping the pirate busy" is not something the escort can really do. The pirate's goal is to destroy the Moth, not to fight the escort. Yes, it's likely that if the pirate just ignores the escort completely, the escort will probably be able to kill the pirate, but reducing the armor makes it more likely that the pirate will be able to finish off the Moth before the escort kills the pirate. And once the Moth is destroyed, the trader and the escort have lost, even if the escort afterwards destroys the pirate.
2. Ah, you're going to make me actually do the math? I was too lazy to actually do the math, it was just my guesstimate that 108m/s was lower than was necessary. Well, let's look at the assumptions you made: you assumed that in order to destroy a Moth the pirate would need the Moth to take 40% more time to get away than it does now, because right now a good pirate can damage a moth down to about %40 armor. But, that assumes that the pirate was doing damage continiously throughout the time that Moth was in the sector, which is not the case. Some of the time that the Moth is in the sector the pirate spends traveling towards the Moth, in order to get into firing range. It is only after the pirate is within firing range that he can start dealing damage. If we reduce the speed of the Moth, we are not only increasing the time that Moth will be in the sector, we are also decreasing the time that the pirate needs to spend traveling towards the Moth, not doing damage. So, in order for the pirate to be able to do the last 40% damage, it will need less than 40% more time. How much less depends on how close the pirate & the Moth start out, and the distance the Moth has to travel to escape.
You also assumed that the distance the Moth would need to travel in order to escape would be a constant 3000m. However, depending on the circumstances, it may be significantly more than that. Most pirates wait at wormholes for traders. There are two ways the Moth can come, either from the other side of the wormhole, or else from further out in the sector, heading towards the wormhole. If the Moth comes through the WH, then in order to escape it will have to travel 3000m from any large object. Usually because of the Moth's exit point and orientation, the Moth would have to travel slightly more than 3000m in order to escape. But if the Moth is coming from the other direction, heading towards the WH, then the pirate will have much more time to destroy the Moth, because the pirate will be able to intercept the Moth and deal some damage before the Moth warps through the WH, and then the pirate can follow the Moth through, and deal the rest of the damage on the other side. So in that case, the Moth has to travel the distance to the WH, warp through, and then travel to a point 3000m from any large object in order to escape. That can often work out to being more than 6000m that the Moth will have to travel to escape.
> i find that i usualy hit top speed less than 3 secondes before i jump when leaving a
> wormehole. That would make the average speed roughly half that of top speed
It would only make the average speed 1/2 the top speed if there was a constant acceleration. That is not the case, as a ship approaches its maximum speed, its acceleration approaches 0. This means you spend more time above 1/2 the top speed than below 1/2 the top speed, which means the average will be higher than 1/2. In order to actually calculate the average, we'd have to make some assumptions on how the devs implemented the physics engine, and do a fair amount of calculus, which I'm too lazy to do right now. But I would guess that the average speed would be around 3/4 the maximum speed, if not higher.
3. A "red herring" is an attempt to use an irrelevant topic to distract from the relevant issues. My quip about debate class was meant to be humorous, not to distract from the relevant issues. But I probably should have left it (and the whole topic of logic) out. It seems that while I didn't intend it to be a red herring, it actually is becoming something of one.
1. Yes, this is a negative effect of slowing moths down; however I think it's small enough that the positive effects outweigh it.
2. I don't agree that it would make trade missions any duller, rather the opposite. IMO trade missions are dull because they are too easy. I prefer a challenge. Making the Moth more vulnerable, either by reducing its speed or its armor, would increase the difficulty of trade missions, which would make them more interesting to me. And if the missions are more interesting, I'm not going to mind them taking somewhat longer.
3. If I were designing it, and I had to choose between one or the other, I would go with the more armor, less speed option rather than the high speed, less armor option, because the more armor it has, the more effective any escorts it has will be. I'll go into more detail on why I think that later. As for realism, when a Bank needs to physically move a large amount of money, what do they use? Armored trucks. Yes, that is rather the exception to the rule, as most stores don't use armored trucks to distribute their goods, and it is not very analogous, land trasportation is very different from the space-ships in VO. But it does show that the more valuable the cargo, the more armor people are going to want to pile on it, even if that means it won't be as fast. Anyway, I would say game balance does trump realism.
4. Heh, yeah, reducing speed does hinder the Moth's ability to escape, that's the whole point. But reducing the armor would hinder the Moth's ability to escape, as well. And I would see this as an improvement: right now, it's way, way too easy for the Moth to escape, again, I like a challenge. I should find the Moth much more fun to fly if it's escape was hindered somewhat.
For ammo weapons, yes the ammo is a concern. But unless the Moth is slowed down, I see time as a much bigger concern.
Answers to Lord Q's questions:
1. Because the less armor the Moth has, the less time the escort has to destroy the pirate before the pirate destroys the Moth. And the escort has to destroy the pirate before the pirate destroys the Moth, "keeping the pirate busy" is not something the escort can really do. The pirate's goal is to destroy the Moth, not to fight the escort. Yes, it's likely that if the pirate just ignores the escort completely, the escort will probably be able to kill the pirate, but reducing the armor makes it more likely that the pirate will be able to finish off the Moth before the escort kills the pirate. And once the Moth is destroyed, the trader and the escort have lost, even if the escort afterwards destroys the pirate.
2. Ah, you're going to make me actually do the math? I was too lazy to actually do the math, it was just my guesstimate that 108m/s was lower than was necessary. Well, let's look at the assumptions you made: you assumed that in order to destroy a Moth the pirate would need the Moth to take 40% more time to get away than it does now, because right now a good pirate can damage a moth down to about %40 armor. But, that assumes that the pirate was doing damage continiously throughout the time that Moth was in the sector, which is not the case. Some of the time that the Moth is in the sector the pirate spends traveling towards the Moth, in order to get into firing range. It is only after the pirate is within firing range that he can start dealing damage. If we reduce the speed of the Moth, we are not only increasing the time that Moth will be in the sector, we are also decreasing the time that the pirate needs to spend traveling towards the Moth, not doing damage. So, in order for the pirate to be able to do the last 40% damage, it will need less than 40% more time. How much less depends on how close the pirate & the Moth start out, and the distance the Moth has to travel to escape.
You also assumed that the distance the Moth would need to travel in order to escape would be a constant 3000m. However, depending on the circumstances, it may be significantly more than that. Most pirates wait at wormholes for traders. There are two ways the Moth can come, either from the other side of the wormhole, or else from further out in the sector, heading towards the wormhole. If the Moth comes through the WH, then in order to escape it will have to travel 3000m from any large object. Usually because of the Moth's exit point and orientation, the Moth would have to travel slightly more than 3000m in order to escape. But if the Moth is coming from the other direction, heading towards the WH, then the pirate will have much more time to destroy the Moth, because the pirate will be able to intercept the Moth and deal some damage before the Moth warps through the WH, and then the pirate can follow the Moth through, and deal the rest of the damage on the other side. So in that case, the Moth has to travel the distance to the WH, warp through, and then travel to a point 3000m from any large object in order to escape. That can often work out to being more than 6000m that the Moth will have to travel to escape.
> i find that i usualy hit top speed less than 3 secondes before i jump when leaving a
> wormehole. That would make the average speed roughly half that of top speed
It would only make the average speed 1/2 the top speed if there was a constant acceleration. That is not the case, as a ship approaches its maximum speed, its acceleration approaches 0. This means you spend more time above 1/2 the top speed than below 1/2 the top speed, which means the average will be higher than 1/2. In order to actually calculate the average, we'd have to make some assumptions on how the devs implemented the physics engine, and do a fair amount of calculus, which I'm too lazy to do right now. But I would guess that the average speed would be around 3/4 the maximum speed, if not higher.
3. A "red herring" is an attempt to use an irrelevant topic to distract from the relevant issues. My quip about debate class was meant to be humorous, not to distract from the relevant issues. But I probably should have left it (and the whole topic of logic) out. It seems that while I didn't intend it to be a red herring, it actually is becoming something of one.
Re: Siro
> To which I would say those "very good pilots" are not very good.
Heh. So, every single player who has attempted to kill a moth in a group and failed is not very good? Well, shoot, I guess I'm not very good then (but then, tell me something I didn't know). And every other I pilot I know is also not very good (well, there's something I didn't know!). Now, can you actually name any pilots who are good enough to kill a Moth when they're grouped up?
> and finally I will respond to this idiocy:
> "and, if a ship has *one* pilot, it should be possible to threaten it by *one* other pilot in
> this game. a moth with a top of 170 or 175 (which will also make it take longer to get to 170)
> would probably be a fine start, one good pirate can threaten a moth, but a good trader will
> probably be safe."
>
> one pirate cannot threaten anyone in an equally fast ship of any type -should they choose to run
> at the outset-. By what critical thinking do you presume to say that ONE type of ship of all the
> others should NOT have this ability?
Here's my thought process in this: When a trade ship successfully runs away, it constitutes a victory for the trade ship. But when a combat ship runs away, it constitues a defeat the combat ship. Different ships are meant for different purposes, and the different purposes have different victory conditions.
> To which I would say those "very good pilots" are not very good.
Heh. So, every single player who has attempted to kill a moth in a group and failed is not very good? Well, shoot, I guess I'm not very good then (but then, tell me something I didn't know). And every other I pilot I know is also not very good (well, there's something I didn't know!). Now, can you actually name any pilots who are good enough to kill a Moth when they're grouped up?
> and finally I will respond to this idiocy:
> "and, if a ship has *one* pilot, it should be possible to threaten it by *one* other pilot in
> this game. a moth with a top of 170 or 175 (which will also make it take longer to get to 170)
> would probably be a fine start, one good pirate can threaten a moth, but a good trader will
> probably be safe."
>
> one pirate cannot threaten anyone in an equally fast ship of any type -should they choose to run
> at the outset-. By what critical thinking do you presume to say that ONE type of ship of all the
> others should NOT have this ability?
Here's my thought process in this: When a trade ship successfully runs away, it constitutes a victory for the trade ship. But when a combat ship runs away, it constitues a defeat the combat ship. Different ships are meant for different purposes, and the different purposes have different victory conditions.
Siro, those five pilots were either five very good BLAKs (Shape, Martin, Holden, Gavan and someone else) or five above average players. if these people don't stop me on several tries, I'd like to see who do, consistantly. thing is, they did a great job in the first sector, but I wasn't there long enough for them to finish the job and after that, once we're in a running game, I was gone. I've taken up to 70% damage in the first two sectors when people have assaulted me well, but after that I'm either far gone, docked, or silently sitting in an empty sector waiting for people to go away.
and I was thinking just like Beolach, a victory for a trade ship is getting away. one on one a pirate should be able to threaten a trade vessel to the point where it might not get away.
oh, and if you've ever _run_ escort, you should know that keeping the aggressor busy is very very hard, you basically have to deal enough damage to almost kill the aggressor to make him / her give you attention. I've never met a pirate that botheres with the escort before the escort shows that doing so will get you killed. since it's extremly easy to run, especially when you're chasing a runner, as soon as the moth pops, the pirate heads for 3K, switches to a moth, and comes back.
lowering the armor of the moth will make it a lot harder for the escort to get the aggressor to this point.
and I was thinking just like Beolach, a victory for a trade ship is getting away. one on one a pirate should be able to threaten a trade vessel to the point where it might not get away.
oh, and if you've ever _run_ escort, you should know that keeping the aggressor busy is very very hard, you basically have to deal enough damage to almost kill the aggressor to make him / her give you attention. I've never met a pirate that botheres with the escort before the escort shows that doing so will get you killed. since it's extremly easy to run, especially when you're chasing a runner, as soon as the moth pops, the pirate heads for 3K, switches to a moth, and comes back.
lowering the armor of the moth will make it a lot harder for the escort to get the aggressor to this point.
If one pirate can get a moth to 51% then why cant 3 destroy it?
I have wondered that and it's clear that it doesn't scale linearly. My hunch is that usually only one person starts off close enough to the moth to do the damage, then once the moth jumps it becomes very hard to do any further damage to it. There are also problems with team mates getting in the way, accidental flaring and other such mayhem.
statistically, one pirate gets a moth to 51% maybe one in 10 attacks, at best (unless the moth pilot fscks up, moth have been killed by one attacker, but then the moth pilot has done something really stupid). adding more attackers doesn't make it easier to chase it down, so with help it's not much more likely that you'll do 50% damage, since damage doesn't affect the moths ability to run, nor does it affect your placement compared to the moth as it enters the sector. hence, it's still 1 in 10 for the other attacker to do 50% damage. how often do two 1 in 10 things happen at the same time?
really, when I was taken to 51% going from Latos to Jallik, only two people really hit me. noone else got near me in time to hit me. the biggest reason to be more than one attacker is so one of you might get lucky with the jump of the moth. it doesn't really help though, since the WH jump code is written so people are spaced as far away from eachother as possible upon entering a new system through a WH. more attackers means you're getting spread out even more, the odds of several of you getting a good lead on the moth is slim at best.
really, when I was taken to 51% going from Latos to Jallik, only two people really hit me. noone else got near me in time to hit me. the biggest reason to be more than one attacker is so one of you might get lucky with the jump of the moth. it doesn't really help though, since the WH jump code is written so people are spaced as far away from eachother as possible upon entering a new system through a WH. more attackers means you're getting spread out even more, the odds of several of you getting a good lead on the moth is slim at best.
Siro, please offer your comments AFTER you try, before lobbying claims of how easy it is.
As far as why 3-4 pilots can't do it. All the moth needs is mines.
Forlarren spoke in another thread about the question of why a pirate should win. The reason is simple.
We pirate in grey space, its supposed to be dangerous, and it isn't.
If we could pull off a kill maybe 40% of the time, it would make Grey sufficiently dangerous that other ships than the moth would get used.
And, simply, danger adds to the thrill
As far as why 3-4 pilots can't do it. All the moth needs is mines.
Forlarren spoke in another thread about the question of why a pirate should win. The reason is simple.
We pirate in grey space, its supposed to be dangerous, and it isn't.
If we could pull off a kill maybe 40% of the time, it would make Grey sufficiently dangerous that other ships than the moth would get used.
And, simply, danger adds to the thrill
I never claimed it was easy to kill a moth (especially alone). The point is you are trying to kill someone who has no intent on fighting you (and has enough amor to equal two or three fighters). I think largely your problem is that the moth runs, not that the moth is hard to kill. A moth that has no intention to run is probably a very easy kill for even a single pirate, should they have enough ammo.
I've personally witnessed incidents where one player pokes about 5 and does a fantastic job of -not- fighting them, in a fighter, once they start attacking. So where do you get off not calling for nerfs across the board? ANYONE can run from fights or piracy, which seems to be a whole other issue. Should running in general be prevented? I don't know. I'm not qualified to know. But go resolve that before nerfing individual ships. Don't base your nerf on some self imposed set of rules that the game does not acknowledge that you seem to think gives the trader a victory (or a fighter a defeat) when he runs.
Location doesn't automagically make you better at flying your ship or coordinating tactics. Especially, once again, on someone (any type of ship) who is running.
Danger doesn't add to the 'thrill', not when you're on an 8+ jump retrieval. It's still boring. Watch a movie or something...
I've personally witnessed incidents where one player pokes about 5 and does a fantastic job of -not- fighting them, in a fighter, once they start attacking. So where do you get off not calling for nerfs across the board? ANYONE can run from fights or piracy, which seems to be a whole other issue. Should running in general be prevented? I don't know. I'm not qualified to know. But go resolve that before nerfing individual ships. Don't base your nerf on some self imposed set of rules that the game does not acknowledge that you seem to think gives the trader a victory (or a fighter a defeat) when he runs.
Location doesn't automagically make you better at flying your ship or coordinating tactics. Especially, once again, on someone (any type of ship) who is running.
Danger doesn't add to the 'thrill', not when you're on an 8+ jump retrieval. It's still boring. Watch a movie or something...
The problem is not that the Moth runs - that's what it's supposed to do. Here's the victory conditions for the trader: don't get killed, get to your destination. Here's the victory conditions for the pirate: kill the Moth, steal its cargo.
I don't see how you can compare that situation (combat ship vs. trade ship) to combat ship vs. combat ship. When it's combat ship vs. combat ship, both sides have the same victory conditions: destroy your enemy. If a combat ship runs, it does not win. Yes, this is an oversimplification, there are many exceptions to this, but it is an accurate simple rule for the difference between these two combat situations. Yeah, sure anyone can take a combat ship and not fight people if they want to. But really that means they can take a combat ship and not win, if they want to (dunno why people would want that, but it is possible). For a trade ship, they should be able to achieve victory, noone is saying that should be impossible. But it should be difficult, not something you can do while asleep; and even more important, your opponent should also be able to achieve victory.
No, location doesn't make you better or worse at flying your ship or coordination tactics. But it CAN make that more difficult. In Nation space, traders are protected by the nation's government. In grey space, there is no such protection, the trader is completely on their own. Grey space ought to be more dangerous than Nation space.
> Danger doesn't add to the 'thrill', not when you're on an 8+ jump retrieval.
> It's still boring. Watch a movie or something...
OK, well, that's your opinion. My opinion happens to be exactly opposite yours, danger very much does add to the thrill. Shall we take an opinion poll to try to find the general concensus?
I don't see how you can compare that situation (combat ship vs. trade ship) to combat ship vs. combat ship. When it's combat ship vs. combat ship, both sides have the same victory conditions: destroy your enemy. If a combat ship runs, it does not win. Yes, this is an oversimplification, there are many exceptions to this, but it is an accurate simple rule for the difference between these two combat situations. Yeah, sure anyone can take a combat ship and not fight people if they want to. But really that means they can take a combat ship and not win, if they want to (dunno why people would want that, but it is possible). For a trade ship, they should be able to achieve victory, noone is saying that should be impossible. But it should be difficult, not something you can do while asleep; and even more important, your opponent should also be able to achieve victory.
No, location doesn't make you better or worse at flying your ship or coordination tactics. But it CAN make that more difficult. In Nation space, traders are protected by the nation's government. In grey space, there is no such protection, the trader is completely on their own. Grey space ought to be more dangerous than Nation space.
> Danger doesn't add to the 'thrill', not when you're on an 8+ jump retrieval.
> It's still boring. Watch a movie or something...
OK, well, that's your opinion. My opinion happens to be exactly opposite yours, danger very much does add to the thrill. Shall we take an opinion poll to try to find the general concensus?
actually, I don't get why traders trade if they find the current setup boring. maybe it's just me, but I like something to happen in my game time, just waiting and occasionally hitting enter doesn't quite qualify as something I'll pay $10 a month to play.
I agree that danger makes things more interesting, but not every trade run is dangerous and slowing the moth down makes all trade runs (done in a moth) take longer wether or not you hapen to run into a pirat.
As far as i know there aren't any true traders. Everyone who trades does it to make monet for the perpus of furthering some other goal. That is something i'd like to see change (there should be more exciting trade missions as well as some more profitable combat missions).
Also to use Beolach's analogy of the armored car:
An armored car is actualy signifigantly smaller than say: a supet tanker, or an 18 wheeler. So it would be more akin to the Centaur in my minde than the moth. It's not the biggest ship but it would be harder to sucessfuly pirat. Also an armored car is tougher than a normal mail truck, but it is also more fragile than an a military armored vehicle (say and APC or a tank). So by your analogy the moth being a bulk transport desiged to haul mass amounts of cargo and not being a military ship should have less armor than it does now (reasoning that it curently has the most armor of all playable ships).
And regarding my calculations, yes i did assume that the pirat deals damage at a constant rate over the coarse of the battle. I forgot to make that explicit. Here is a slightly better model taking into account a period of time spent gaining a shooting solution:
Given:
1. The distance the moth must trave in any given engagment is a constant for that engagment regardless of the stats of the moth.
2. The first 10% of the time spent in the engagement is devoted to the pirat getting a shooting solution on the moth.
3. The moth is unable to do anything except run. ie. the moth is unarmed, and has no escorts.
4. Once the pirat has a shooting solution he will do damage at a constant rate untill the moth is able to escape or is destroied.
5. A compotent pirat is able to reduce the moth's armor to 40% under the current (un nerfed) conditions.
6. The moth average speed is 3/4 it's top speed.
Thus:
based on assumtion 5 and assumption 4, The moth must remain in the sector for and additional amount of time equal to 40% of the time the pirat has a shooting solution.
Because the pirat will only have a shooting solution for the last 90% of the battle (assumtion 2). The moth will need to remain in the sector for an additional amount of time equal to 36% of the time taken for the current escape (40% of 90%).
Now based on D=RT and Assumption 1, If T increases by 36% then R must decrease perportanatly in order for D to remain constant. Therefor D= (R-.36R)(1.36T)
Now since all we are interested in is the change in R needed to balance the change in T, we can extract R-.36R as the formula to calculate the resulting change in the moth's average speed.
Based on assumption 6, R is 142.50 So R-.36R will be 91.20
Again based on Assumption 6 that will make the new top speed of the moth 121.6m/s
This new result is more resonable but still a far cry from the 150m/s minimum set by Beolach, and even further from my opinion of 160m/s beign the minimum.
I would aslo like to point out that this model padds in favor of an incresed speed in that more often than not a moth can escape with 50%+ whereas i assumed 40%. Also This model assumes that 10% of the battle is spent with the pirat lining up his shots. and that after that the moth takes damage at a constant rate. If the moth is armed, or is able to use evasive manuvers to avoid some of the damage that may not be the case. The pirat may take more time to resesablish his shooting solution.
And finaly, if the moth maintains it's 190 top speed then escorts will have an easier time distracting pirats as they can jump in ahead of the moth engage the pirat and then signal the moth to come in. That way the pirat can't ignore the escorts or he will be destried but if he can brake free of them long enough to get to the moth, kill it, and then gather the booty and escape he deserves his kill, as he won the fight. If however he can't brake free of the escorts to reach the moth long enough to kill it then he has lost. the oly real difference is the pressure is on the pirat to be fast enough to catch ujp to the moth while under duress as opposed to beign on him to stay locked on long enough to kill the otherwise helpless moth before the escorts kill him.
And one last Question Beolach: Where are you in regards to the Pirat or Trader divide? Personaly i'm more of a trader than a pirat but i've conciderd making a pirat alt (i haven't done it because pirating isn't that profitable)
As far as i know there aren't any true traders. Everyone who trades does it to make monet for the perpus of furthering some other goal. That is something i'd like to see change (there should be more exciting trade missions as well as some more profitable combat missions).
Also to use Beolach's analogy of the armored car:
An armored car is actualy signifigantly smaller than say: a supet tanker, or an 18 wheeler. So it would be more akin to the Centaur in my minde than the moth. It's not the biggest ship but it would be harder to sucessfuly pirat. Also an armored car is tougher than a normal mail truck, but it is also more fragile than an a military armored vehicle (say and APC or a tank). So by your analogy the moth being a bulk transport desiged to haul mass amounts of cargo and not being a military ship should have less armor than it does now (reasoning that it curently has the most armor of all playable ships).
And regarding my calculations, yes i did assume that the pirat deals damage at a constant rate over the coarse of the battle. I forgot to make that explicit. Here is a slightly better model taking into account a period of time spent gaining a shooting solution:
Given:
1. The distance the moth must trave in any given engagment is a constant for that engagment regardless of the stats of the moth.
2. The first 10% of the time spent in the engagement is devoted to the pirat getting a shooting solution on the moth.
3. The moth is unable to do anything except run. ie. the moth is unarmed, and has no escorts.
4. Once the pirat has a shooting solution he will do damage at a constant rate untill the moth is able to escape or is destroied.
5. A compotent pirat is able to reduce the moth's armor to 40% under the current (un nerfed) conditions.
6. The moth average speed is 3/4 it's top speed.
Thus:
based on assumtion 5 and assumption 4, The moth must remain in the sector for and additional amount of time equal to 40% of the time the pirat has a shooting solution.
Because the pirat will only have a shooting solution for the last 90% of the battle (assumtion 2). The moth will need to remain in the sector for an additional amount of time equal to 36% of the time taken for the current escape (40% of 90%).
Now based on D=RT and Assumption 1, If T increases by 36% then R must decrease perportanatly in order for D to remain constant. Therefor D= (R-.36R)(1.36T)
Now since all we are interested in is the change in R needed to balance the change in T, we can extract R-.36R as the formula to calculate the resulting change in the moth's average speed.
Based on assumption 6, R is 142.50 So R-.36R will be 91.20
Again based on Assumption 6 that will make the new top speed of the moth 121.6m/s
This new result is more resonable but still a far cry from the 150m/s minimum set by Beolach, and even further from my opinion of 160m/s beign the minimum.
I would aslo like to point out that this model padds in favor of an incresed speed in that more often than not a moth can escape with 50%+ whereas i assumed 40%. Also This model assumes that 10% of the battle is spent with the pirat lining up his shots. and that after that the moth takes damage at a constant rate. If the moth is armed, or is able to use evasive manuvers to avoid some of the damage that may not be the case. The pirat may take more time to resesablish his shooting solution.
And finaly, if the moth maintains it's 190 top speed then escorts will have an easier time distracting pirats as they can jump in ahead of the moth engage the pirat and then signal the moth to come in. That way the pirat can't ignore the escorts or he will be destried but if he can brake free of them long enough to get to the moth, kill it, and then gather the booty and escape he deserves his kill, as he won the fight. If however he can't brake free of the escorts to reach the moth long enough to kill it then he has lost. the oly real difference is the pressure is on the pirat to be fast enough to catch ujp to the moth while under duress as opposed to beign on him to stay locked on long enough to kill the otherwise helpless moth before the escorts kill him.
And one last Question Beolach: Where are you in regards to the Pirat or Trader divide? Personaly i'm more of a trader than a pirat but i've conciderd making a pirat alt (i haven't done it because pirating isn't that profitable)
Yeah, an armored truck is not analogous to a Behemoth, for many reasons. I just meant that to illustrate the point that adding more armor at the cost of speed is not completely unrealistic.
Well, I'm not dead set against lowering the armor, and it is possible that reducing the speed down to no lower than 150m/s may not be enough, without also reducing the armor. But I would rather see the speed reduced before the armor, and it should be done in small increments until a reasonable balance is reached. I'd say, drop its speed 10m/s each week or two, until it's either balanced, or 150m/s. If it's 150m/s, and still unbalanced, then I'd say start shaving a few hundred armor points every week or two until it's balanced.
> And finaly, if the moth maintains it's 190 top speed then escorts will have an easier time
> distracting pirats as they can jump in ahead of the moth engage the pirat and then signal the moth
> to come in.
I don't think that would work well enough. Yes, the pirate will engage the escort if the escort jumps before the Moth, but as soon as the pirate sees the Moth, he'll disengage from the escort, and from then until either the pirate or the Moth is destroyed, I don't think there's anything the escort can do to effectively distract the pirate. If the escort jumps ahead of the Moth, and attempts to destroy the pirate before signaling the Moth to jump in, then that leaves the Moth undefended (although if the trader is intelligent, it will be in an empty sector with multiple jumps to other empty sectors plotted, and therefore not at much of a risk), and it also allows the pirate to focus specifically on destroying the escort. And if the pirate destroys the escort, then that leaves the Moth undefended, until the escort can return, which might be a while.
> And one last Question Beolach: Where are you in regards to the Pirat or Trader divide?
My primary character, Beolach, is mostly neither a trader or a pie-rat. Beolach does do a bit of mining and trading, but mostly does Border Patrol, or escorting Itani CtC, or in other ways defending Itani interests from Serco attacks. If traders actually needed escorts, Beolach would probably escort any Itani traders, as well. Among the alternate characters that I've had, have, and plan on having, there are both traders and pirates. No I will no tell who they are, too many people know already.
Well, I'm not dead set against lowering the armor, and it is possible that reducing the speed down to no lower than 150m/s may not be enough, without also reducing the armor. But I would rather see the speed reduced before the armor, and it should be done in small increments until a reasonable balance is reached. I'd say, drop its speed 10m/s each week or two, until it's either balanced, or 150m/s. If it's 150m/s, and still unbalanced, then I'd say start shaving a few hundred armor points every week or two until it's balanced.
> And finaly, if the moth maintains it's 190 top speed then escorts will have an easier time
> distracting pirats as they can jump in ahead of the moth engage the pirat and then signal the moth
> to come in.
I don't think that would work well enough. Yes, the pirate will engage the escort if the escort jumps before the Moth, but as soon as the pirate sees the Moth, he'll disengage from the escort, and from then until either the pirate or the Moth is destroyed, I don't think there's anything the escort can do to effectively distract the pirate. If the escort jumps ahead of the Moth, and attempts to destroy the pirate before signaling the Moth to jump in, then that leaves the Moth undefended (although if the trader is intelligent, it will be in an empty sector with multiple jumps to other empty sectors plotted, and therefore not at much of a risk), and it also allows the pirate to focus specifically on destroying the escort. And if the pirate destroys the escort, then that leaves the Moth undefended, until the escort can return, which might be a while.
> And one last Question Beolach: Where are you in regards to the Pirat or Trader divide?
My primary character, Beolach, is mostly neither a trader or a pie-rat. Beolach does do a bit of mining and trading, but mostly does Border Patrol, or escorting Itani CtC, or in other ways defending Itani interests from Serco attacks. If traders actually needed escorts, Beolach would probably escort any Itani traders, as well. Among the alternate characters that I've had, have, and plan on having, there are both traders and pirates. No I will no tell who they are, too many people know already.
"I don't see how you can compare that situation (combat ship vs. trade ship) to combat ship vs. combat ship. When it's combat ship vs. combat ship, both sides have the same victory conditions: destroy your enemy. If a combat ship runs, it does not win. Yes, this is an oversimplification, there are many exceptions to this, but it is an accurate simple rule for the difference between these two combat situations."
The game does not have these rules. Nor does it differentiate a behemoth from a vulture as 'trade ship' and 'combat ship'. There are no such things in the mechanics of it. If you want such things, by all means, suggest those. As it stands the trader does not 'win' anything by succesfully running from a fight (other than what it would have gotten anyway, absent the fight), just like a figher does not win anything from fleeing (unless in a duel, where fleeing is losing). A fighter does 'win' insofar as a pk count +1 should they destroy another ship. If you want to give the moth a special mechanic to label it as soley a 'trade' ship, then give them +1 to something beneficially equivalent (eventually resulting in a badge) each time they successfully flee a battle, sure then you can talk about nerfing it's speed or armor.
As it stands, only imagined rules of 'trade ship' and 'combat ship' seem to support a nerf.
As to grey space being more difficult, maybe just throw in some npc pirates then? Although I'm not sure if they'd attack traders with excellent faction with Corvus (unlike players). It's not like there aren't enough npc traders running around in atlases... Or maybe a Pirate Patrol mission, similar to border patrol.
As to why some traders trade:
Get trading/commerce up.
Get money, some of us are relatively new and don't have multimillions lying around.
Get faction up at various places.
The game does not have these rules. Nor does it differentiate a behemoth from a vulture as 'trade ship' and 'combat ship'. There are no such things in the mechanics of it. If you want such things, by all means, suggest those. As it stands the trader does not 'win' anything by succesfully running from a fight (other than what it would have gotten anyway, absent the fight), just like a figher does not win anything from fleeing (unless in a duel, where fleeing is losing). A fighter does 'win' insofar as a pk count +1 should they destroy another ship. If you want to give the moth a special mechanic to label it as soley a 'trade' ship, then give them +1 to something beneficially equivalent (eventually resulting in a badge) each time they successfully flee a battle, sure then you can talk about nerfing it's speed or armor.
As it stands, only imagined rules of 'trade ship' and 'combat ship' seem to support a nerf.
As to grey space being more difficult, maybe just throw in some npc pirates then? Although I'm not sure if they'd attack traders with excellent faction with Corvus (unlike players). It's not like there aren't enough npc traders running around in atlases... Or maybe a Pirate Patrol mission, similar to border patrol.
As to why some traders trade:
Get trading/commerce up.
Get money, some of us are relatively new and don't have multimillions lying around.
Get faction up at various places.
> The game does not have these rules.
Yes it does. Yes, it is an oversimplification, as there are other victory conditions for other situations, but baring a combat mission, escorting a cargo ship, or some other seperate objective, when two combat ships are fighting, not destroying the other ship means you didn't win. If a combat ship runs, it didn't win. But if a trade ship runs, it did win.
> Nor does it differentiate a behemoth from a vulture as 'trade ship' and 'combat ship'.
Heh, so, a Behemoth is every bit as effective in combat as a Vulture, and a Vulture is every bit as effective in trade as a Behemoth? Alrighty then.
> There are no such things in the mechanics of it.
It's not the game mechanics that differentiate a Behemoth from a Vulture, it's their statistics. The Behemoth, compared to the Vulture, has very, very bad stats that are important to combat (non-turbo acceleration, spin torque, etc.). And the Vulture, compared with the Behemoth, has very bad stats that are important to trading (cargo capacity, high mass, high thrust, especially turbo thrust).
> As it stands the trader does not 'win' anything by succesfully running from a
> fight (other than what it would have gotten anyway, absent the fight)
The trader does win by successfully running from a fight, if it hadn't successfully run, it would have lost its cargo. Yes, it doesn't gain anything that it wouldn't have gained if the fight hadn't taken place, but that's beside the point, because whether the fight take place or not is out of the trader's control: it's the pirate, not the trader, who initiates the fight.
> just like a figher does not win anything from fleeing (unless in a duel, where
> fleeing is losing). A fighter does 'win' insofar as a pk count +1 should they
> destroy another ship.
That's my point, if a fighter flees from a fight, it didn't win (and may have lost, even if it's not a duel).
> If you want to give the moth a special mechanic to label it as soley a 'trade' ship,
> then give them +1 to something beneficially equivalent (eventually resulting in a
> badge) each time they successfully flee a battle, sure then you can talk about nerfing
> it's speed or armor.
So making massive profit isn't enough for a trader, they need other rewards as well? But actually, I wouldn't be opposed to some medals & other rewards for traders who prove they are good at escaping pirates. But right now, no trader is any better at escaping pirates than most other traders, because the Moth is doing it for them. The Moth gives twice or more the profit other ships will, I think that's plenty of reward to justify making the Moth have the same risk as the other trade ships, without adding more rewards.
> As it stands, only imagined rules of 'trade ship' and 'combat ship' seem to support a nerf.
So, I'm imagining that a Behemoth is a trade ship, and not a combat ship... OK. I guess I should stop imagining that, next time I go into combat in the Border Patrol, I'll take a Behemoth, and I'll do just as well as I do in my Valk or Rag.
> As to grey space being more difficult, maybe just throw in some npc pirates then?
> Although I'm not sure if they'd attack traders with excellent faction with
> Corvus (unlike players). It's not like there aren't enough npc traders running around
> in atlases... Or maybe a Pirate Patrol mission, similar to border patrol.
I would love to see both of those, and I'm going to be posting a suggestion about Corvus that incorporates those, along with some other things. But, even if there were lots of NPC Corvus pirates flying around grey space, it would not make grey space much more dangerous for Moths, unless the Moth is changed. Or there could be massive amounts of NPC pirates, so that several could attack a Moth together - but that would make grey space nearly impossible for anything other than a Moth.
> As to why some traders trade:
> Get trading/commerce up.
> Get money, some of us are relatively new and don't have multimillions lying around.
Right. But hopefully the player who is controlling the trader is having fun from this. If not, why is he playing a trader?
> Get faction up at various places.
This is the case currently, but it's actually something I'd like to see change. Yes, traders should increase their faction standing by trading, but non-traders should have other ways to increase their standing. Hopefully now that the mission editor is finished & we'll start seeing more missions, there will be more ways to build standing. When I finish writing my suggestion on Corvus, it will include some of the options I'd like to see Corvus offering to players to build standing.
Yes it does. Yes, it is an oversimplification, as there are other victory conditions for other situations, but baring a combat mission, escorting a cargo ship, or some other seperate objective, when two combat ships are fighting, not destroying the other ship means you didn't win. If a combat ship runs, it didn't win. But if a trade ship runs, it did win.
> Nor does it differentiate a behemoth from a vulture as 'trade ship' and 'combat ship'.
Heh, so, a Behemoth is every bit as effective in combat as a Vulture, and a Vulture is every bit as effective in trade as a Behemoth? Alrighty then.
> There are no such things in the mechanics of it.
It's not the game mechanics that differentiate a Behemoth from a Vulture, it's their statistics. The Behemoth, compared to the Vulture, has very, very bad stats that are important to combat (non-turbo acceleration, spin torque, etc.). And the Vulture, compared with the Behemoth, has very bad stats that are important to trading (cargo capacity, high mass, high thrust, especially turbo thrust).
> As it stands the trader does not 'win' anything by succesfully running from a
> fight (other than what it would have gotten anyway, absent the fight)
The trader does win by successfully running from a fight, if it hadn't successfully run, it would have lost its cargo. Yes, it doesn't gain anything that it wouldn't have gained if the fight hadn't taken place, but that's beside the point, because whether the fight take place or not is out of the trader's control: it's the pirate, not the trader, who initiates the fight.
> just like a figher does not win anything from fleeing (unless in a duel, where
> fleeing is losing). A fighter does 'win' insofar as a pk count +1 should they
> destroy another ship.
That's my point, if a fighter flees from a fight, it didn't win (and may have lost, even if it's not a duel).
> If you want to give the moth a special mechanic to label it as soley a 'trade' ship,
> then give them +1 to something beneficially equivalent (eventually resulting in a
> badge) each time they successfully flee a battle, sure then you can talk about nerfing
> it's speed or armor.
So making massive profit isn't enough for a trader, they need other rewards as well? But actually, I wouldn't be opposed to some medals & other rewards for traders who prove they are good at escaping pirates. But right now, no trader is any better at escaping pirates than most other traders, because the Moth is doing it for them. The Moth gives twice or more the profit other ships will, I think that's plenty of reward to justify making the Moth have the same risk as the other trade ships, without adding more rewards.
> As it stands, only imagined rules of 'trade ship' and 'combat ship' seem to support a nerf.
So, I'm imagining that a Behemoth is a trade ship, and not a combat ship... OK. I guess I should stop imagining that, next time I go into combat in the Border Patrol, I'll take a Behemoth, and I'll do just as well as I do in my Valk or Rag.
> As to grey space being more difficult, maybe just throw in some npc pirates then?
> Although I'm not sure if they'd attack traders with excellent faction with
> Corvus (unlike players). It's not like there aren't enough npc traders running around
> in atlases... Or maybe a Pirate Patrol mission, similar to border patrol.
I would love to see both of those, and I'm going to be posting a suggestion about Corvus that incorporates those, along with some other things. But, even if there were lots of NPC Corvus pirates flying around grey space, it would not make grey space much more dangerous for Moths, unless the Moth is changed. Or there could be massive amounts of NPC pirates, so that several could attack a Moth together - but that would make grey space nearly impossible for anything other than a Moth.
> As to why some traders trade:
> Get trading/commerce up.
> Get money, some of us are relatively new and don't have multimillions lying around.
Right. But hopefully the player who is controlling the trader is having fun from this. If not, why is he playing a trader?
> Get faction up at various places.
This is the case currently, but it's actually something I'd like to see change. Yes, traders should increase their faction standing by trading, but non-traders should have other ways to increase their standing. Hopefully now that the mission editor is finished & we'll start seeing more missions, there will be more ways to build standing. When I finish writing my suggestion on Corvus, it will include some of the options I'd like to see Corvus offering to players to build standing.
first, as to "why trade" replies:
1) Get trading/commerce up.
I'm POS serco, POS itani and 999 everywhere else. I tested an alt and got Admired everywhere in three days with relaxed trading.
2) Get money, some of us are relatively new and don't have multimillions lying around.
my alt made around 3M doing trade for those three days. since that alt really doesn't do a crapload of PVP, it has never really lost money either.
3) Get faction up at various places.
getting admired everywhere is a matter of a few nights of trading if you pick your missions. after that, why do you trade?
secondly, a trade ship is a ship which holds noticably more cargo than other ships. a vult holds 1/60th of the cargo of a moth. it's pretty obvious which one of those is a trader. a trader wins by running since he actually completes what he set out to do, the pirate fails since he didn't accomplish what he set out to do. as for requireing a badge like PK for running to be a victory, please, do already get money, faction and trade XP. and a trade badge for your first trade mission.
pirate NPCs, right. if they're like todays strike fleets, traders are going to scream bloody murder. a pirate patrol mission would be nice, but it's pointless as long as you can hardly succeed in it, given that it's purpose would be to stop traders.
Lord Q:
# 4. Once the pirat has a shooting solution he will do damage at
# a constant rate untill the moth is able to escape or is
# destroied.
this is very wrong. it might be seemingly close to this if the pirate has flares only, other than that you need a bare minimum of 3.5 FC battery charges with N2 fire to sink a moth. even in a ship with infiboost (hah, find those today, Hog MkII @ 220 catching a moth, right), that battery charge required means that you will run dry and have to turn to turbo tapping. this is all good and fair, but at 190m/s on the moth, it's hard to turbotap to keep up and at the same time do damage.
going at 190, with less armor, escorts will be pretty useless. *IF* I get a good lead on the moth and it has half the armor, I'll ignore the escorts. look at the rules for how things warp in through a WH, you come as far *APART* as possible, meaning that the escorts will be *FAR* from the moth, as I turn to attack the moth, it'll be as fast as today, meaning it'll still reach 3K quickly, probably before anyone but the pirate has time to actually close on it. the escorts on their hand need to close to me, closing on the moth, and pick that shot before I manage to lay it on the moth. as it runs, so will I.
trust me, escorts won't mean anything. they don't do so today in CtC when the transport starts to run, it won't change with a moth if it runs. we've tried escorts, and to protect your target you need two things, 1) the ability to follow it well (lower speeds) and 2) lots of armor on the target so it can take the beating it'll get.
once things turn into a running game, escorts turn into hunters. and hunting a moth at 190 today is damn hard, tracking a light fighter hunting that moth is even harder. it's more agile, a smaller target and it accelerates faster meaning it can turbo-tap and turbo turn better.
I quite honestly don't belive you've flown escorts at all. some of us have a few dozen times to put it like that, we're somewhat familiar with how it works.
(and clearing us beforehand, possibly doable, but even that'll be a lot easier with less speed and more armor, since if I get a lead on it, I will concentrate fire as given above, and unless your escorts are infiboost ships with no energy weapons, once they run dry, catching up again will require the same tactics I use to catch the moth, but the moth will jump with me on it's butt. killing a pirate that's just running around the sector waiting for the moth is pretty much impossible, you turbotap around your WH entrance until the moth comes, if it doesn't, you jump the other way and meet it.)
1) Get trading/commerce up.
I'm POS serco, POS itani and 999 everywhere else. I tested an alt and got Admired everywhere in three days with relaxed trading.
2) Get money, some of us are relatively new and don't have multimillions lying around.
my alt made around 3M doing trade for those three days. since that alt really doesn't do a crapload of PVP, it has never really lost money either.
3) Get faction up at various places.
getting admired everywhere is a matter of a few nights of trading if you pick your missions. after that, why do you trade?
secondly, a trade ship is a ship which holds noticably more cargo than other ships. a vult holds 1/60th of the cargo of a moth. it's pretty obvious which one of those is a trader. a trader wins by running since he actually completes what he set out to do, the pirate fails since he didn't accomplish what he set out to do. as for requireing a badge like PK for running to be a victory, please, do already get money, faction and trade XP. and a trade badge for your first trade mission.
pirate NPCs, right. if they're like todays strike fleets, traders are going to scream bloody murder. a pirate patrol mission would be nice, but it's pointless as long as you can hardly succeed in it, given that it's purpose would be to stop traders.
Lord Q:
# 4. Once the pirat has a shooting solution he will do damage at
# a constant rate untill the moth is able to escape or is
# destroied.
this is very wrong. it might be seemingly close to this if the pirate has flares only, other than that you need a bare minimum of 3.5 FC battery charges with N2 fire to sink a moth. even in a ship with infiboost (hah, find those today, Hog MkII @ 220 catching a moth, right), that battery charge required means that you will run dry and have to turn to turbo tapping. this is all good and fair, but at 190m/s on the moth, it's hard to turbotap to keep up and at the same time do damage.
going at 190, with less armor, escorts will be pretty useless. *IF* I get a good lead on the moth and it has half the armor, I'll ignore the escorts. look at the rules for how things warp in through a WH, you come as far *APART* as possible, meaning that the escorts will be *FAR* from the moth, as I turn to attack the moth, it'll be as fast as today, meaning it'll still reach 3K quickly, probably before anyone but the pirate has time to actually close on it. the escorts on their hand need to close to me, closing on the moth, and pick that shot before I manage to lay it on the moth. as it runs, so will I.
trust me, escorts won't mean anything. they don't do so today in CtC when the transport starts to run, it won't change with a moth if it runs. we've tried escorts, and to protect your target you need two things, 1) the ability to follow it well (lower speeds) and 2) lots of armor on the target so it can take the beating it'll get.
once things turn into a running game, escorts turn into hunters. and hunting a moth at 190 today is damn hard, tracking a light fighter hunting that moth is even harder. it's more agile, a smaller target and it accelerates faster meaning it can turbo-tap and turbo turn better.
I quite honestly don't belive you've flown escorts at all. some of us have a few dozen times to put it like that, we're somewhat familiar with how it works.
(and clearing us beforehand, possibly doable, but even that'll be a lot easier with less speed and more armor, since if I get a lead on it, I will concentrate fire as given above, and unless your escorts are infiboost ships with no energy weapons, once they run dry, catching up again will require the same tactics I use to catch the moth, but the moth will jump with me on it's butt. killing a pirate that's just running around the sector waiting for the moth is pretty much impossible, you turbotap around your WH entrance until the moth comes, if it doesn't, you jump the other way and meet it.)
"> The game does not have these rules.
Yes it does. Yes, it is an oversimplification, as there are other victory conditions for other situations, but baring a combat mission, escorting a cargo ship, or some other seperate objective, when two combat ships are fighting, not destroying the other ship means you didn't win. If a combat ship runs, it didn't win. But if a trade ship runs, it did win."
Please point out to me where, when a 'trade ship' runs, it is recorded as a win. I can almost see ctc as being an example, but if I understand it correctly 120 cu can account for an entire day's worth, not requiring a moth in the first place. Also point out to me where, beyond a duel, a 'combat ship' loses when fleeing. I'd really like to know. I don't know of the game recording any such wins or losses.
As to statistics, yes the ships are statistically different, but the way the game treats them concerning victory and defeat does not seem to be.
Yes it does. Yes, it is an oversimplification, as there are other victory conditions for other situations, but baring a combat mission, escorting a cargo ship, or some other seperate objective, when two combat ships are fighting, not destroying the other ship means you didn't win. If a combat ship runs, it didn't win. But if a trade ship runs, it did win."
Please point out to me where, when a 'trade ship' runs, it is recorded as a win. I can almost see ctc as being an example, but if I understand it correctly 120 cu can account for an entire day's worth, not requiring a moth in the first place. Also point out to me where, beyond a duel, a 'combat ship' loses when fleeing. I'd really like to know. I don't know of the game recording any such wins or losses.
As to statistics, yes the ships are statistically different, but the way the game treats them concerning victory and defeat does not seem to be.
> Please point out to me where, when a 'trade ship' runs, it is recorded as a win.
When a trade ship is attacked by a pirate, there are two possible outcomes: either the trade ship succeeds at running away, or it fails at running away. If it succeeds at running away, it allows the trader to make a profit - I would consider this to be "recorded as a win" - while if it fails at running away, it causes the trader to lose money - I would consider this to be "recorded as a loss".
> Also point out to me where, beyond a duel, a 'combat ship' loses when fleeing.
If I am defending the Itani CtC convoy, and a Serco pilot tries to destroy it, and I damage the Serco ship and it decides to run away, then I would very much consider that to be a victory - unless of course the Serco ship both destroyed the CtC convoy, and picked up its cargo. If the Serco ship destroys the CtC convoy but runs from me without picking up the cargo (which does happen, usually when they pick up the scrap metal rather than the Purified Xith), then I would still call that a victory, and I would say it is recorded when the convoy or I deliver the cargo.
Also now that the mission editor is completed, I expect we'll start seeing several missions which running from the fight will cause the mission to be recorded as a loss, or more likely to be recorded as a loss.
But aside from that, it does not matter to me whether the game records my wins or losses, I still see them as wins or losses. If I engage another player in a 1v1 fight, not an official duel, and my opponent runs from me, I consider that to be every bit as much of a win as it would have been if it had been an official duel, even though the game does not record it as a win.
[edit]
Well, I shouldn't say it does not matter to me whether the game records wins & losses or not, as I do prefer it when they are recorded (and rewarded). But, whether or not they are recorded does not change the fact that they are wins or losses.
[/edit]
When a trade ship is attacked by a pirate, there are two possible outcomes: either the trade ship succeeds at running away, or it fails at running away. If it succeeds at running away, it allows the trader to make a profit - I would consider this to be "recorded as a win" - while if it fails at running away, it causes the trader to lose money - I would consider this to be "recorded as a loss".
> Also point out to me where, beyond a duel, a 'combat ship' loses when fleeing.
If I am defending the Itani CtC convoy, and a Serco pilot tries to destroy it, and I damage the Serco ship and it decides to run away, then I would very much consider that to be a victory - unless of course the Serco ship both destroyed the CtC convoy, and picked up its cargo. If the Serco ship destroys the CtC convoy but runs from me without picking up the cargo (which does happen, usually when they pick up the scrap metal rather than the Purified Xith), then I would still call that a victory, and I would say it is recorded when the convoy or I deliver the cargo.
Also now that the mission editor is completed, I expect we'll start seeing several missions which running from the fight will cause the mission to be recorded as a loss, or more likely to be recorded as a loss.
But aside from that, it does not matter to me whether the game records my wins or losses, I still see them as wins or losses. If I engage another player in a 1v1 fight, not an official duel, and my opponent runs from me, I consider that to be every bit as much of a win as it would have been if it had been an official duel, even though the game does not record it as a win.
[edit]
Well, I shouldn't say it does not matter to me whether the game records wins & losses or not, as I do prefer it when they are recorded (and rewarded). But, whether or not they are recorded does not change the fact that they are wins or losses.
[/edit]
terjekv,
you didn't read my followup paragraph did you?
In it i said that my assumption that a pirat can do damage at a constant rate was not entierly true, but as accounting for that would alter the results in a way favorable to my argument i chose to take the weeker estimat (by that i mean the one that is less likely to prove my point) so that my argument as a whole would be stronger.
Anyway, I feal Beolach and i are now on the smae page. He has realized that reducing the speed alone will not solve the problem, and as a result of his arguments i have conceeded that reducing the armor alone will not solve the problem. We still disagree on which should be reduced first (i say armor, he says speed) but that is a more miner point.
As for escorting: i have tried to escort NPC atlases through ion storms on ocasion, but i don't realy have any experience in dealing with PC traders and pirats.
I still think that an escort could jump in ahead of the moth, and engage the pirat thereby reducing the pirat's ability to see the moth come in. After all when you're dogfighting how closely are you going to be watching the wormehole? But I personaly think the moth shouldn't nesesarily need escorts anyway. It should have a fair chance at getting away without them, so the miner destraction granted by the escort should help tip the otherwised balanced scale in favor of the moth.
Now drawing from expierience in other games, yes it sucks to defend something that is slow, week and helpless. However, the reduction i've perposed in the moth's armor will make it week, while still remaining somwhat fast. I'd have to try it to know for sure but my impression is that the moth could loose as much as 45% of it's armor before being in the slow, week and helpless catagory (that's an estemat i didn't have any math to back that up) .
you didn't read my followup paragraph did you?
In it i said that my assumption that a pirat can do damage at a constant rate was not entierly true, but as accounting for that would alter the results in a way favorable to my argument i chose to take the weeker estimat (by that i mean the one that is less likely to prove my point) so that my argument as a whole would be stronger.
Anyway, I feal Beolach and i are now on the smae page. He has realized that reducing the speed alone will not solve the problem, and as a result of his arguments i have conceeded that reducing the armor alone will not solve the problem. We still disagree on which should be reduced first (i say armor, he says speed) but that is a more miner point.
As for escorting: i have tried to escort NPC atlases through ion storms on ocasion, but i don't realy have any experience in dealing with PC traders and pirats.
I still think that an escort could jump in ahead of the moth, and engage the pirat thereby reducing the pirat's ability to see the moth come in. After all when you're dogfighting how closely are you going to be watching the wormehole? But I personaly think the moth shouldn't nesesarily need escorts anyway. It should have a fair chance at getting away without them, so the miner destraction granted by the escort should help tip the otherwised balanced scale in favor of the moth.
Now drawing from expierience in other games, yes it sucks to defend something that is slow, week and helpless. However, the reduction i've perposed in the moth's armor will make it week, while still remaining somwhat fast. I'd have to try it to know for sure but my impression is that the moth could loose as much as 45% of it's armor before being in the slow, week and helpless catagory (that's an estemat i didn't have any math to back that up) .
> Anyway, I feal Beolach and i are now on the smae page. He has realized that reducing the
> speed alone will not solve the problem,
I hope I don't start an argument, or offend you, but I didn't say reducing the speed alone will not solve the problem, I just said it may not be enough alone. I'd actually still guess that reducing the speed to 160 or 150m/s is likely to do the trick - but until it is tested in-game, I won't say I'm positive. Reducing the armor may also be necessary.
> As for escorting: i have tried to escort NPC atlases through ion storms on ocasion, but i
> don't realy have any experience in dealing with PC traders and pirats.
Defending ships from hive bots is much easier than defending ships from players. It is very easy to distract the hive bots, just ping them once, and they will turn their attention away from the other ship. Players are not going to do that.
> I still think that an escort could jump in ahead of the moth, and engage the pirat
> thereby reducing the pirat's ability to see the moth come in. After all when you're
> dogfighting how closely are you going to be watching the wormehole?
It would be a viable tactic, but I don't like relying on my enemy (the pirate) making a mistake (not watching the WH) in order for my tactics to be successful. It puts my success or failure into my enemy's hands, I'd rather keep it in my hands (even if it turns out that my hands aren't enough to obtain success).
[edit]
> But I personaly think the moth shouldn't nesesarily need escorts anyway. It should
> have a fair chance at getting away without them, so the miner destraction granted
> by the escort should help tip the otherwised balanced scale in favor of the moth.
If there is only one pirate, then I would agree, the escort should not be necessary, and if an escort is present, then it should tip the balance in the favor of the trader. But, if there are two pirates, then I think they should have the advantage over an unescorted Moth, and should ideally have a 50-50 chance against a Moth with one escort. 1v1, 50-50; 2v2, 50-50; 1v2, the team with 2 should have a better chance. I don't think pirates should group up more than 2 or 3 together, unless they are attacking a convoy with more than one Moth and many escorts.
[/edit]
> Now drawing from expierience in other games, yes it sucks to defend something that is slow,
> week and helpless. However, the reduction i've perposed in the moth's armor will make it
> week, while still remaining somwhat fast. I'd have to try it to know for sure but my impression
> is that the moth could loose as much as 45% of it's armor before being in the slow, week and
> helpless catagory (that's an estemat i didn't have any math to back that up) .
I'd agree that trying to defend a slow and weak ship is frustrating. But, in Vendetta Online, defending a fast and weak ship is more frustrating. In CtC, the transports are fast and weak, which means that when I'm escorting them, every time we warp through a wormhole, it places us far apart, and if they start turboing to escape from an enemy, their high speed makes it difficult for me to catch up with the transport in time to be of any assistance. On the other hand, if the CtC transports were slower, but had much more armor, then I could catch up with them, and (hopefully) get rid of the attacker. In fact, that was a suggestion I was and am very much in favor of: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9571
> speed alone will not solve the problem,
I hope I don't start an argument, or offend you, but I didn't say reducing the speed alone will not solve the problem, I just said it may not be enough alone. I'd actually still guess that reducing the speed to 160 or 150m/s is likely to do the trick - but until it is tested in-game, I won't say I'm positive. Reducing the armor may also be necessary.
> As for escorting: i have tried to escort NPC atlases through ion storms on ocasion, but i
> don't realy have any experience in dealing with PC traders and pirats.
Defending ships from hive bots is much easier than defending ships from players. It is very easy to distract the hive bots, just ping them once, and they will turn their attention away from the other ship. Players are not going to do that.
> I still think that an escort could jump in ahead of the moth, and engage the pirat
> thereby reducing the pirat's ability to see the moth come in. After all when you're
> dogfighting how closely are you going to be watching the wormehole?
It would be a viable tactic, but I don't like relying on my enemy (the pirate) making a mistake (not watching the WH) in order for my tactics to be successful. It puts my success or failure into my enemy's hands, I'd rather keep it in my hands (even if it turns out that my hands aren't enough to obtain success).
[edit]
> But I personaly think the moth shouldn't nesesarily need escorts anyway. It should
> have a fair chance at getting away without them, so the miner destraction granted
> by the escort should help tip the otherwised balanced scale in favor of the moth.
If there is only one pirate, then I would agree, the escort should not be necessary, and if an escort is present, then it should tip the balance in the favor of the trader. But, if there are two pirates, then I think they should have the advantage over an unescorted Moth, and should ideally have a 50-50 chance against a Moth with one escort. 1v1, 50-50; 2v2, 50-50; 1v2, the team with 2 should have a better chance. I don't think pirates should group up more than 2 or 3 together, unless they are attacking a convoy with more than one Moth and many escorts.
[/edit]
> Now drawing from expierience in other games, yes it sucks to defend something that is slow,
> week and helpless. However, the reduction i've perposed in the moth's armor will make it
> week, while still remaining somwhat fast. I'd have to try it to know for sure but my impression
> is that the moth could loose as much as 45% of it's armor before being in the slow, week and
> helpless catagory (that's an estemat i didn't have any math to back that up) .
I'd agree that trying to defend a slow and weak ship is frustrating. But, in Vendetta Online, defending a fast and weak ship is more frustrating. In CtC, the transports are fast and weak, which means that when I'm escorting them, every time we warp through a wormhole, it places us far apart, and if they start turboing to escape from an enemy, their high speed makes it difficult for me to catch up with the transport in time to be of any assistance. On the other hand, if the CtC transports were slower, but had much more armor, then I could catch up with them, and (hopefully) get rid of the attacker. In fact, that was a suggestion I was and am very much in favor of: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9571
there is a difference between something being "not entirely true" and something being basically false. =)
your math basically doesn't deal with recharge times, drain, DPS and DPE with the weapons used, how much energy is required to down a moth, or how much ammo, what hit percentage that ammo weapon requires... at 130m/s the moth will be fodder, no matter the escorts, it'll also have serious issues in a storm. I was originally going for 160, but I've modereated myself to 170 or 175. it will need the armor though.
as for being engaged beforethe moth comes in... I won't be watching the dogfight at all, there won't even be a dogfight. you won't get near enough to me to make me dogfight you, I'll turbo around you until the moth comes, or go to meet it. hitting someone who isn't interested in fighting you is almost impossible.
and I don't want the moth to require escorts either, but I'd like to see it so a moth with an escort or two has a good chance of getting away. to do that the escort must be able to engage the attacker as the attacker does his thing, trying to hinder the attacker from reaching the moth is extremly hard. try it sometime.
I also don't want the moth to be slow, weak and helpless, I want the moth to be protectable, and giving it less armor will make that a lot harder. try doing CtC with running transports and enemies around you sometime, do it a few times a week for a few weeks. see how almost impossible it is to stop an attacker in a turbo chase game. once they get their attack vector they can stream shots that the target will have problems dodging, as you close, they'll tap, realign, repeat.
the thing is that his ship can dodge and can move at that speed, the transport (and the moth) have a lot harder of a job at it. fighers are also a lot harder to hit (shape wise) than a moth, which matters a *lot* when you're turboing and can't aim without tapping.
interesting read:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9571#110143
your math basically doesn't deal with recharge times, drain, DPS and DPE with the weapons used, how much energy is required to down a moth, or how much ammo, what hit percentage that ammo weapon requires... at 130m/s the moth will be fodder, no matter the escorts, it'll also have serious issues in a storm. I was originally going for 160, but I've modereated myself to 170 or 175. it will need the armor though.
as for being engaged beforethe moth comes in... I won't be watching the dogfight at all, there won't even be a dogfight. you won't get near enough to me to make me dogfight you, I'll turbo around you until the moth comes, or go to meet it. hitting someone who isn't interested in fighting you is almost impossible.
and I don't want the moth to require escorts either, but I'd like to see it so a moth with an escort or two has a good chance of getting away. to do that the escort must be able to engage the attacker as the attacker does his thing, trying to hinder the attacker from reaching the moth is extremly hard. try it sometime.
I also don't want the moth to be slow, weak and helpless, I want the moth to be protectable, and giving it less armor will make that a lot harder. try doing CtC with running transports and enemies around you sometime, do it a few times a week for a few weeks. see how almost impossible it is to stop an attacker in a turbo chase game. once they get their attack vector they can stream shots that the target will have problems dodging, as you close, they'll tap, realign, repeat.
the thing is that his ship can dodge and can move at that speed, the transport (and the moth) have a lot harder of a job at it. fighers are also a lot harder to hit (shape wise) than a moth, which matters a *lot* when you're turboing and can't aim without tapping.
interesting read:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9571#110143