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Request for Comments: Changing how throttle and turbo work.

«2345678»
Mar 12, 2007 SuperMegaMynt link
These are some aspects of sector hopping:

• Takes some amounts of seconds where the one engaging loses control over manuvers.
• Requires that one is atleast 3000m away from large objects at the time of engaging.

So, if the in sector "pop" had those two aspects, there's no way it could be abused anymore than cross sector hopping already can be, which isn't abuse at all... Except maybe it could be used in an ion storm to more quickly reach the storm exit point, but since those storms usually have asteroids hidden in the blue, I think the risk of flattening your ship would make it fair. =)

But, then there's wormholes. Someone trying to cross a protected wormhole would have a much easier time, because that person would only have to turbo out to 3000m, point at the wormhole, and then blast through any defense screens at 18345ms, or whatever. So, I propose an additional requirement:

• Takes some amounts of seconds upon disengaging to regain control over maneuvers.

This would prevent people from jumping through a wormhole at exorbitant speeds.
Mar 13, 2007 PsyRa link
I think the main problem with in sector hopping, would be the "PsyRa just warped to Odia A-1" message that you get if you are within 1,000.

That message wouldn't help a chaser very much, so either A) the message would have to include a destination location that could be plotted by the chaser or B) a system to "Auto Follow" if you were within 1,000 M of jumping target when they did the jump would have to be implemented

Another disadvantage of the jump vs "pop" model however would include the lack of relevance of physical features within a fuller sector. Imagine a sector that from the initial jump in point, has a space station 100K out, but between that station and the default jump in point, an asteroid field existed, that would be treacherous, if not suicidal, to try to pass through at the 4,000ms you would have to be traveling at in order to reach said station in one pop. That asteroid field could be the base for a pirate gang, that preys on those passing through, or you have to set up your travel path to bypass it altogether.

It would also make ship weight a non-factor in determining fleet composition for group travel. Something that would certainly be a huge deal if ships "pop" speed was appropriately affected by their mass. Heavy ships would not be able to show up all at once without a great deal of planning, but would rather come in waves with the lightest ships showing up first, and the heaviest ships coming in later.

Oh and if you tried to hit the wormhole at 18345ms, you would have to hit your key within the 2,000 m window. That would give you exactly 0.109 seconds (109ms) to hit the key, and send the signal to the server. Just based on odds, if you could insure the second you hit the key, you would only hit it 1/10 times.

Miss, and you are most likely going to end up several 100's of K outside of your target range.

Also, wormholes seem to automatically adjust your exit speed, so my guess is that you would come out doing sane speeds anyway.

Plus, I think you must have missed this from my first post on this issue.

"The ship cannot add additional trust until it has fallen back down to less than 5ms travel speed."
Mar 13, 2007 SuperMegaMynt link
If I noticed someone within 1000m suddenly jump off at a certain speed and angle, it'd be very possible to triangulate his arrival coordinates in comparison to mine, and have my neat lil' futuristic computer tell me just how much energy I need to put in at what angle to match up with him.

The asteroids/pirates would be sucky. Maybe one could disengage at will, but this would again take 10 seconds to manually do?
Mar 13, 2007 PsyRa link
Actually, if you were in a lighter ship, it would take less power, you would have to hit a higher top speed due to the more rapid deceleration under the current drag model, and would arrive at the final destination much sooner than your intended target.

If you want to see what I mean, load up a moth to a couple of million KG of weight (Chaos Swarm missiles do nicely for this) then turbo to top speed (will take a while). Let go of the turbo and see just how long it takes you to coast back down to normal top speed.

What it looks like happens currently is that once the turbo is turned off, the ship behaves as if there is a reverse turbo being applied along whatever trajectory lines are greater than the ships non-turbo max speed. Ships that take a long time to reach top speed, also take longer to decelerate.

Heavy ships trying to obtain the same distance would therefore reach lower tops speeds, but maintain them for much longer, thus producing a slower, longer trip.
Mar 13, 2007 Jim Kirk link
This is all true PsyRa.

Relating to the topic, however, how would you change throttle and turbo?

Personally, I would make it a lot more realistic, but still incorporate the old rubberband.

You can accelerate to any speed you would normally accelerate to by using "w,a,s,d,r,f" aswell as by using turbo.

Using "w,a,s,d,r,f" would just take a crap load longer though.

*******.........NEW IDEA......................... I think...................********

I suggest further that [TAB] should remain a 'universal forward accelerator', but that for ships with more than one engine, we can choose a custom set-up, and custom key-mapping for engine ignitions and turn offs and all the variable in-between.

Much like the weapons selection screen, we can have a thrust selection screen, via the PDA, in and out of dock.

My idea is that controlling how much % of thrust comes from each engine for our different maneuvers would create completely new type of flying abilities, and actually could provide for different turbo defensive and offensive flight patterns.

It would require more physics detail on each ship, but I promise, hard-core pilots will love you for this.

Being able to turbo the left engine 50% and the right 100%, in order to turn to the left, with a two engine ship, would be awesome. Even just messing around with your ship and doing 100% in one engine, and 0% in the other would look really silly.

Imagine seeing ships spinning on a dime and doing circles like a deflated balloon.

Ofcourse, I do recommend that there should be some kind of "G-blackout" that occurs when the ship spins too fast and the pilot cannot see for a certain amount of time after (depending on how fast he/she was spinning, and how long).
Apr 08, 2007 SuperMegaMynt link
I didn't explain my thoughts very well above, but basically if you see someone pop off within 1000m (or maybe 5000m would be more fair), their predicted destination point would be shown on your HUD, along with how much energy and time you need to charge up to intercept them at that point. That way, you could basically follow them like you can following anyone through sector hopping, except engine speeds play more of a role.

Anywho, I had this idea. As speed increases past a certain point (usually about 65 m/s), the effect of your Spin Torque slowly decreases until it hits zero at another, higher point (usually about 200/220 m/s). This is because by turbo tapping one can sort of control their direction, but obviously the more they do so, the less turboing comes out of it, so to make the system perfectly grey instead of black and white, players would need to be able to turn a little bit while boosting, but obviously less progressively less while at progressively higher speeds.

Now, this meshes nicely with the turbo "popping" idea, as you wouldn't have much control at all at speeds of 18345ms, but could still potentially put on the brakes to try and slow things down. In case of an emergency.
Jun 08, 2007 SilentWave link
I agree it would be useful and fun to have a turbo pop.

I envision it as such:

General
Energy is stored in your engine. It takes 6 seconds to prepare the engines for energy storage. Then, energy is accumulated for up to 12 seconds, after which you are fully charged. The charge rate would vary with different batteries.

Process
You press a 'charge engines' key to begin the charging process. The engines warmup, and then start loading energy. After you have charged the desired amount of energy, you press and hold your turbo key to discharge the energy. You can expend the energy at any point during the charge process (after the engines are warmed up). Just like the current turbo button, you slow down to your max normal speed (ie. 65m/s) when you release the turbo button.

Limitations
You would only be able to store the energy while you remain in a sector, because your battery is discharged when you warp to another sector or system.

You would not have control of your ship while in the hyperspeed 'pop zone'. You wouldn't even be able to turn. (If you want to see the pretty stars zoom by, use the third person camera.)

You come out of the pop zone slowing down to max normal speed (ie. 65m/s). Thereafter, the tubo engine must warm down for 10 seconds. It will be unavailable during this time.

In order to initiate the engine warmup and charge process, you must not already be using turbo mode.

Features
If you accidentally begin charging your engines, you can press the 'charge engines' key again to perform a safe discharge of the stored energy. You can safely discharge the energy at any point after they begin to store energy (but not while they are warming up). The engines will need a period of 4 seconds to warm down after the safety discharge. When the engines are discharged and warmed down, you can resume using normal turbo.

A little red bar to the outside left of the current engine level will rise to show the amount of energy you have stored in your engines. Above this bar, the estimated throttle at discharge is displayed.

Since the energy is released all at once (and further energy expenditure is therefore not a method of limitation), you can remain at hyperspeed as long as you like. To exit the pop zone, simply release the turbo key.

New idea
I like (mynt's ???) idea for having a first-person view while you jump between sectors. Have the view simply blurr around you while the new sector objects are loaded. That way, gameplay is seamless, like in Halo. The loading screens really detract from the realism of this MMORPG.
Jun 09, 2007 SuperMegaMynt link
Oh my god. The engine prepping idea is so cool!!! That's the perfect way to balance things. In order to jump sectors, pop sectors, or whatever, you'd need to engage your Gravitic Pulse Drives© for long range travel, whereby your turning and regular thrusters would be good for little else than fine adjustments. Maybe later the game could even have a little animation where the ship opens up, and like the distance thrusters become visible, 'n stuff. For those StarFox 64 enthusiasts, just think "Open the Wings" but with more splendour and transforming.

Or for those that have no idea what the hell I'm talking about, check out the first ten seconds of this video.
Jun 09, 2007 The Ori link
I love this "popping" stuff, but where would we use it? In systems today, all you'd do by "popping" would be getting very far away from any stationary object. Would this idea coincide with making each system one seamless three-dimensional sector? This makes little sense as to its usefulness. Or is this supposed to be a fun thing?
Jun 09, 2007 SuperMegaMynt link
The reason why stationary objects are always in one pile is because there's no decent method of long distance travelling.
Jun 09, 2007 SilentWave link
Ori, that sounds alot like Ares or Battle for the Universe. I really don't like the idea of having one huge seamless system, but instead having more effective transitions while jumping between sectors. A starwars-like transition was mentioned for sector jumping. And for the wormholes, even having a neat wormhole movie would be cooler than a predictable, stationary loading screen like there is now. Something like the StarGate series uses could be neat.
Jun 10, 2007 The Ori link
That would be amazingly cool... And could also make some people amazingly nauseous. Let's do it!
Jun 10, 2007 PsyRa link
I love the engine warm up idea. Then once engaged, acts like Turbo but with no or a very high speed cap, 1000ms for example, and at say 30N thrust instead of the current 3N for turbo. That would let you travel very far, very fast.

Of course that 5mill from center shuts down the sector bug would have to be solved. Can't remember who did that to H-2, but it caused chaos for about half an hour.
Jun 14, 2007 fzuazo link
I don't know if this has been mentioned but I have what I think is a good idea...

You can set a speed over your standard cruising speed. What ever you set that speed to a relative amount of charge is "capped" from your fuel cell..this amount remains "capped" for the duration that you have that extra speed active....example:

Your fuel cell is at 100%
You increase your cruise speed by 50m/s
Your cell is now capped at 75% until revert back to your normal crusing speed.

This would allow you to still use your weapons but in a much more limited capacity as well as still use your turbo.

Let me know what you all think.
Jun 14, 2007 SilentWave link
Explain this a bit more, fzuazo, I don't understand.
Jun 14, 2007 PsyRa link
Humm, not to speak for fzuazo, but I think I understand what he proposes, and I don't think the first form of the idea would work.

First an example of what I think he means.

Your Vultures top speed is 65, however you want to add a bit of juice. You set something that says I want my top speed to be 75.

You use a Fast charge battery with a top end capacity of 250. By setting +10 to your top speed, your batter looses 10% capacity. So now its top charge is 225.

If thats what he is proposing, well that won't work. First off, because of latency, speed, and accuracy, top speeds were cut back already. So increase of basic speed can not happen if I understand things correctly.

That said, there may be a way to use this, just not for basic cruising speed.

Originally this thread was started to see how to get people around larger areas of space in a reasonable time, so that sectors could be filled with interesting things that people could actually get to in a reasonable amount of time.

So....

Add in an over turbo, that can be kicked in 5-15 seconds after your top speed in turbo is reached. Once there, your turbo top speed goes up to +battery power limit. So if you are carrying a heavy battery, it goes up to +550 of your ships current maximum.

The consequence of this could be that your battery holds a 0 charge until you turn off this over turbo and your speed has slowed again to your standard turbo limits.

It would also restrict this type of drive to those ships that can turbo at top speed long enough to engage this special drive.

That way you could speed across empty space for longer distance travel, without changing the current combat play styles. Of course this appears to be just a twist on the engine warm up idea.
Jun 14, 2007 fzuazo link
That's exactly what I meant.

In regards to your suggestion...I think that it is a great idea. It would serve two functions:

1) It would allow the higher end ships (which usually equate to more experienced players) to move faster and easier through space to reach parts of the game world that they would normally not want to venture to due to the time it would have taken.

2) Since the beginer ships would not be capable of using this function it would help keep them in their starting area and not venturing off to where they would get man-handled by the better equiped and higher end ships.

Now my only question regarding this...is that since it takes several seconds to engage this function eould you be allowed to change your heading ?..or will you locked into the heading you were on wheny ou engaged the boost ?..also will this turbo function be available for an indefinite amount of time or will there be a duration on this turbo ?

Other than that this is a GREAT idea
Jun 15, 2007 SuperMegaMynt link
So, I think fzuazo's talking about throttle. You could set your forward thrusters at a rate above normal, at the price of draining energy. At minimum throttle you'd just be doing regular maneuvering; no change in speed. At maximum throttle you'd be boosting like we do in the game currently. The difference would be that you could set it for any level in between, which you can simulate right now with elaborate turbo tapping.

Of course, your turning would have to be modified as well, since at full throttle you obviously can't turn at all. This is where things get a little complicated, since turbo tapping 50% of the time lets you turn faster than 50% of your usually turning rate... but if setting your throttle at a percent did reduce your turning to that same percent, there's no way that this would allow people to do anything they can't currently. It would just make turboing at halfway, or achieving infiboost with ships of a drain of 60/sec alot easier on the hands.

Edit: On second thought it gets alot more complicated than I thought for calculating the right turn speeds to have to simulate what people can do with turbo tapping, i.e. making sure it couldn't be abused to do anything in the game we can't currently do now. It's possible to calculate, but it just doesn't act like the usual spin torque mechanics, and it certainly isn't based off linear equations.
Jun 15, 2007 SilentWave link
PsyRa, by adding an 'over-turbo,' from where are you getting energy? Is it an outside force that creates this overturbo?

If so, then let's have jump gates that boost you off in a certain direction at a multiple of your current speed. So for example, you are flying along at 150 m/s. You then pass through a jump gate that shoots you off at 5x this speed (725 m/s) toward another part of the sector. You would only be able to go into these gates facing one direction, and they could even have a runway of sorts (like the station signs) to make sure you're going the right path. Of course, this would limit you to a certain path and direction, but I think this would cut on lag and also confusion in identifying objects out of radar and visual range. To make this impossible for newbies, we could have access granted through a mission or even a badge ranking, or both, or even faction standing. (Sound like EV Nova?) We could call them jump gates, acceleration gates, star gates, whatever.

Otherwise, adding a turbo boost outside of the visual expenditure of your booster engines doesn't follow the idea of all your energy 'exploding' or 'popping' in order to accelerate you to obscene speeds.

The problem with my gate idea is that people could plant concussion mines and blast you off at ludicrous speed (insert spaceballs tag here) through the gate. To avoid this, just set a maximum speed like 1000 m/s.
Jun 15, 2007 PsyRa link
Where does the energy come from? A change in style of the gravitation field drive that requires no additional energy, just re-configures its flux parameters could explain it. Sort of like the 88mph necessary to activate a flux capacitor in a Delorean time machine.

http://www.ryebrye.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/delorean.jpg

For the sake of game play, we can just make shit up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03E68F6599Q

At it's core the velocities in this game do not even come close to making sense.

The speed of sound is 340.29m/s. The fastest atmospheric plane in the world travels at 1088.92m/s and weighs 127,000 lb (57605 kg).

http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/yf-12_blackbird.pl

The fastest semi-atmospheric space plane in the world travels at 2286.74m/s.

So..

Despite centuries of advancement, ubiquitous space travel across multiple star systems in ships that weigh less than a Volvo, (21500 KG http://www.volvo.com/NR/rdonlyres/FFEFA5EF-39BE-4E89-A0A1-31FA26FA8AFD/0/FES4x218tRAS.pdf ) they still don't travel faster than 65% of the speed of sound in an environment without resistance??!!! WTF!!!

And you want me to figure out how the energy "makes sense". Suspend reality for crying out loud, lets just pick something that will be fun and not ruin the balance of the game.