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"Double of nothing is nothing, Cunjo. If he's not valued by Valent, 0's faction drop for killing him is zero."
I'm aware of that, and... personally I'm fine with it. If someone wants to be protected, they should go throgh the effort of gaining rep and earning the protection. If they don't want to, they can stick to their own nation's space, because unless they're a turncoat, they're always protected there.
I do think there should be a (minor) faction hit for killing anyone not already hated... at -500, you may lose 20 pts. At -200, 50; at 0, 100, and so on... hitting someone in an NFZ would double the penalty, which means a little more protection for the neutrals and an instant KOS for the admired. On the bright side, it would be easier for someone wanting to tank their standing, to do that.
I'm aware of that, and... personally I'm fine with it. If someone wants to be protected, they should go throgh the effort of gaining rep and earning the protection. If they don't want to, they can stick to their own nation's space, because unless they're a turncoat, they're always protected there.
I do think there should be a (minor) faction hit for killing anyone not already hated... at -500, you may lose 20 pts. At -200, 50; at 0, 100, and so on... hitting someone in an NFZ would double the penalty, which means a little more protection for the neutrals and an instant KOS for the admired. On the bright side, it would be easier for someone wanting to tank their standing, to do that.
The current system is stupid. It enables the griefers while giving no recourse to the greifee. It should be reversed. If you kill someone and their standing is not hated, YOUR standing should drop. Alternately, if you're KOS or Temp KOS for firing on someone, anyone who kills you at station after that should not be penalized.
As it stands, if you defend yourself and win, you still lose. It's absurd, and should be changed.
As it stands, if you defend yourself and win, you still lose. It's absurd, and should be changed.
The Devs have been giving us updates indicating that they ARE working on changing the faction system:
From incarnate in the News section
Saturday, January 20, 2007 Vendetta Online 1.7.15
"...
Other work also continues on faction standings, friendly fire, physical reworking of sectors and systems, improving AI responses and navigability (better capship behaviour, etc etc), totally new NPC inventory management (much better for Kourier/Deliverator work, missions, etc). Some of this stuff doesn't sound terribly exciting, but it's basically like "make capships smarter and less server intensive, so we can actually do more with them" and other similar cases. "Doing more with them" being everything from player ownership to major battles and station conquest and so on. The usual 984932 dependencies between us and The Next Really Cool Gameplay. "
From incarnate in the News section
Saturday, January 20, 2007 Vendetta Online 1.7.15
"...
Other work also continues on faction standings, friendly fire, physical reworking of sectors and systems, improving AI responses and navigability (better capship behaviour, etc etc), totally new NPC inventory management (much better for Kourier/Deliverator work, missions, etc). Some of this stuff doesn't sound terribly exciting, but it's basically like "make capships smarter and less server intensive, so we can actually do more with them" and other similar cases. "Doing more with them" being everything from player ownership to major battles and station conquest and so on. The usual 984932 dependencies between us and The Next Really Cool Gameplay. "
Impavid, I'm going to do something unusual before I go through my usual practice of pointing out the glaring weaknesses of your claim. I'm going to agree with you.
I strongly feel that NFZ restrictions should not apply to any attack on a pilot who is -600 or lower with that faction. But the reason for that being the case isn't one you should embrace, since it tends (implicitly) to undercut your major claim, that pilots should be penalized for killing anyone not hated. While there's the claim that NFZ means NOBODY fire in this zone, I think it is silly to penalize those who shoot at a pilot for which there's already a SF in the air (so to speak).
But like I said, the reason that they shouldn't mind your shooting a hated or KOS player hurts your claim that the faction should worry about what happens to non-admired/respected/POS pilots in that faction's space. The standing system and the SF that goes along with it is not part of a special anti-station camping program; that it can prevent that is just a perk. The point is for the system to mirror a harsh yet realistic government system: they look after their own and if you want their protection you have to work for it. If you're not on their good side, they have no reason to launch a SF to protect you. If you're trapped at their station, tough luck.
Now, you argue for a SF to launch any time someone station kills you. That's not an argument sounding in the realistic government standing system that VO tries to provide (despite your claim that a station would do it because of image concerns vis a vis people getting shot up in their space). Your reason is that because someone is victimizing a weaker player, the game should protect them. Again, that's not the way VO works. You do have a built in protection when you start: your nation likes you and you start at their stations. Thus the SF looks after you and standing hits are assessed against anyone who kills you.
But, once you venture into the rest of space, nobody cares about you. This is in keeping with the realism and constant threat intended to be present when you fly outside nation space. You're going out to make a name for yourself with Xang Xi, and 0 finds you at the Sedina L-2 station. He's got +999 Xang Xi faction, he doesn't like you, and Xang Xi doesn't know you from shit. 0 kills you, in the NFZ. Now, for violating station policy, he has a temp KOS penalty. Why should XX get their panties in a knot more than this? It wouldn't be because of anything to do with the faction system, since they don't know or like you. You basically say they should because of n00b protection concerns.
But if you want protection, you start with it in nation space. You want to remain protected without any risk? Don't fucking leave.
Cunjo: on one hand, you basically agree with me. On the other, you say there should be faction hits of up to -100 for killing someone the relevant faction doesn't like much. Why should they (the faction) care about the fate of the pilot such that there's even a minor standing hit? I could see an argument that as you gain standing you become a little more liked and thus a little more protected... except that, like access to ships and items, there should be cut-offs for protected/not protected. It would encourage pilots to really put in a significant amount of work, rather than just raising standing enough to do some damage.
Whistler: thank you SOOOO much for that totally useless interjection. They're "working on changing it", huh? That's so informative! Especially since you have no idea what changes are being implemented. Do you have anything to add other than that "big changes are coming soon"? Like whether those changes might address the OP's concerns?
I strongly feel that NFZ restrictions should not apply to any attack on a pilot who is -600 or lower with that faction. But the reason for that being the case isn't one you should embrace, since it tends (implicitly) to undercut your major claim, that pilots should be penalized for killing anyone not hated. While there's the claim that NFZ means NOBODY fire in this zone, I think it is silly to penalize those who shoot at a pilot for which there's already a SF in the air (so to speak).
But like I said, the reason that they shouldn't mind your shooting a hated or KOS player hurts your claim that the faction should worry about what happens to non-admired/respected/POS pilots in that faction's space. The standing system and the SF that goes along with it is not part of a special anti-station camping program; that it can prevent that is just a perk. The point is for the system to mirror a harsh yet realistic government system: they look after their own and if you want their protection you have to work for it. If you're not on their good side, they have no reason to launch a SF to protect you. If you're trapped at their station, tough luck.
Now, you argue for a SF to launch any time someone station kills you. That's not an argument sounding in the realistic government standing system that VO tries to provide (despite your claim that a station would do it because of image concerns vis a vis people getting shot up in their space). Your reason is that because someone is victimizing a weaker player, the game should protect them. Again, that's not the way VO works. You do have a built in protection when you start: your nation likes you and you start at their stations. Thus the SF looks after you and standing hits are assessed against anyone who kills you.
But, once you venture into the rest of space, nobody cares about you. This is in keeping with the realism and constant threat intended to be present when you fly outside nation space. You're going out to make a name for yourself with Xang Xi, and 0 finds you at the Sedina L-2 station. He's got +999 Xang Xi faction, he doesn't like you, and Xang Xi doesn't know you from shit. 0 kills you, in the NFZ. Now, for violating station policy, he has a temp KOS penalty. Why should XX get their panties in a knot more than this? It wouldn't be because of anything to do with the faction system, since they don't know or like you. You basically say they should because of n00b protection concerns.
But if you want protection, you start with it in nation space. You want to remain protected without any risk? Don't fucking leave.
Cunjo: on one hand, you basically agree with me. On the other, you say there should be faction hits of up to -100 for killing someone the relevant faction doesn't like much. Why should they (the faction) care about the fate of the pilot such that there's even a minor standing hit? I could see an argument that as you gain standing you become a little more liked and thus a little more protected... except that, like access to ships and items, there should be cut-offs for protected/not protected. It would encourage pilots to really put in a significant amount of work, rather than just raising standing enough to do some damage.
Whistler: thank you SOOOO much for that totally useless interjection. They're "working on changing it", huh? That's so informative! Especially since you have no idea what changes are being implemented. Do you have anything to add other than that "big changes are coming soon"? Like whether those changes might address the OP's concerns?
The idea that people who target newbies are costing us a lot of players is one of the most insidious lies in the game. Most new players will leave because the game lacks something they want, be it content or gameplay or, ironically, lack of user base; only a very few leave because of piracy around the stations.
The "griefee" has three recourses: fight, stay where he is, or ask for help. I assure you all three work if you keep your wits about you.
The "griefee" has three recourses: fight, stay where he is, or ask for help. I assure you all three work if you keep your wits about you.
I think dr lecter has read into my suggestion much farther than it went. I agrue only that, logically and realisticly, a station should rule against the sinner and not the victim. We don't put the raped on trial, we put the rapist on trial. If you kill someone outside of a station, and that person was doing nothing to provoke you, then yes, you should be punished.
How do you know that person was doing NOTHING to provoke the kill? How do you know it wasn't an accidental trigger-press of swarms when you were targeted? Maybe it was a fight that started OUTSIDE the NFZ and the final kill came when both parties had accidentally drifted into the NFZ Sphere that surrounds the station? You can't always assume that everything is so clear-cut.
But, usually, yes, I would agree, killing someone inside a station NFZ should lower your standing with that station at least (if not the faction) by 750 points.
But, usually, yes, I would agree, killing someone inside a station NFZ should lower your standing with that station at least (if not the faction) by 750 points.
You really are dense.
In the faction/station's eyes, someone isn't a "sinner" just because they kill you, and you're not a "victim" just because you get killed. In YOUR eyes that may be the case, and your point of view is that of an IRL player who feels that station killing isn't cricket.
But VO's game dynamic, of which the station and the faction system and the strike-force are all part, is not based around your care bear view. It's based off the harsh "we look after our own and that's all" world-view that I explained above.
So, get it through your head that, unlike someone shooting you outside a police station IRL, killing someone in VO doesn't have the same inherent consequences. You want someone to treat you as a victim, you have to earn it.
In the faction/station's eyes, someone isn't a "sinner" just because they kill you, and you're not a "victim" just because you get killed. In YOUR eyes that may be the case, and your point of view is that of an IRL player who feels that station killing isn't cricket.
But VO's game dynamic, of which the station and the faction system and the strike-force are all part, is not based around your care bear view. It's based off the harsh "we look after our own and that's all" world-view that I explained above.
So, get it through your head that, unlike someone shooting you outside a police station IRL, killing someone in VO doesn't have the same inherent consequences. You want someone to treat you as a victim, you have to earn it.
And Leber, what the Hell did you just smoke? Why should Tunguska, which used to love me a whole lot, care one little bit if I flare the fuck out of some guy at the dock if he doesn't have Tunguska standing? I've made my bones with them, and it's assumed that I had my reasons.
God lecter, you're such a wannabe.
Not even trolling this one, Genka. His suggestion ignores the realities of the faction system's basic premise: work hard to make us like you, so that we'll protect you and offer you new toys.
Actually, I question the validity of the current faction system design, a point you obviously miss, or understand but ignore because it's harder to dismiss. I believe the current system is flawed, does not work as intended or for that matter in a useful way, and is exploitable by grief players.
Well, at least you finally made the "why" behind it explicit instead of just saying "this should be penalized." I don't miss that what you suggest necessarily undermines the current system's most fundamental core. But since you hadn't recognized and embraced that fact in a post yet, I saw no reason to assist your poor articulation.
At any rate, no matter the changes in the faction system that are forthcoming, what you suggest is a pretty fundamental departure from the ideals behind the system. Essentially, after this the only reason to gain faction is to get access to X, Y and Z. But what is really strange is that protection from hostilities would be accorded as of right, a default of protection by any station at which you happen to be.
Why would VO--with its emphasis on realism, danger and carving out a place in the universe from scratch--be better for having this change that is based off a care bear desire to treat killing as inherently frowned upon? Like I said, everyone starts with the sort of default you're asking for--it's only once you leave your nation's space (or stations, in the case of UIT) that the harsh reality kicks in. Why isn't that a sufficient balance, especially when standing is fairly easy to gain?
At any rate, no matter the changes in the faction system that are forthcoming, what you suggest is a pretty fundamental departure from the ideals behind the system. Essentially, after this the only reason to gain faction is to get access to X, Y and Z. But what is really strange is that protection from hostilities would be accorded as of right, a default of protection by any station at which you happen to be.
Why would VO--with its emphasis on realism, danger and carving out a place in the universe from scratch--be better for having this change that is based off a care bear desire to treat killing as inherently frowned upon? Like I said, everyone starts with the sort of default you're asking for--it's only once you leave your nation's space (or stations, in the case of UIT) that the harsh reality kicks in. Why isn't that a sufficient balance, especially when standing is fairly easy to gain?
I think this change would serve the "emphasis on realism" you mention, for reasons I've written before, namely that realisticly, a murderer is punished for murdering regardless of who they kill. For example, if I walk into a mall and shoot an illegal immigrant, I still go to jail for murder, even though that person is not a citizen (VO terms, in high standing) with our government. The danger remains, meaning, I can still kill someone outside a station and get away with it, even with an SF hovering, but I lose landing rights, because what government is going to let me into the mall after I shoot someone? In the current system, killing is frowned upon, as evidenced by the immediate SF launch when you shoot at someone. The problem is they somehow forget you killed someone just a second ago when you jump back in, which doesn't serve realism at all.
Im not looking to neuter combat in VO, it's become my favorite part of the game. But there should be more risk in the game than just the risk of dying. There should be a consequence for killing in front of authority. Heck, maybe even a reward for it from a pirate faction or something, for the greater risk in killing at a hated station. At the moment, there is no risk of punishment for station killing someone outside a station, and no protection for someone who is defending themself, and there should be.
Im not looking to neuter combat in VO, it's become my favorite part of the game. But there should be more risk in the game than just the risk of dying. There should be a consequence for killing in front of authority. Heck, maybe even a reward for it from a pirate faction or something, for the greater risk in killing at a hated station. At the moment, there is no risk of punishment for station killing someone outside a station, and no protection for someone who is defending themself, and there should be.
and there should be.
That's mostly the real dispute here. I agree, however, that you should be able to fire at anyone with -600 or lower faction within the NFZ, so that wraps up the ability to defend part of your claim. As for the whole penalty for the mere act of station killing...
(1) I would say that VO's ideal is a little less civilized than RL. I can't go haul coal around for an hour or so IRL and quickly erase all consequences of a triple murder. You're confusing realism that remains faithful to the rough and less civilized world created in VO with 2007 here on Earth. Nice try, but no.
(2) The SF only launches if I shoot another player within the NFZ. Killing you (assuming you lack standing) 1001m from the station causes no issues at all. Thus, it's not the act but where you do it that causes the penalty: conversely, killing doesn't trouble the faction. And since violating the NFZ is a pretty petty offense, as even an accident causes it (one shot is all it takes), it makes sense that they leave you alone after a jump out and back. They're not stupid, it's just that they're not punishing the pilot for killing his target. They're traffic cops.
(3) There's already a consequence for killing, which is tied into the faction system. My fundamental disagreement with what you propose, however, is neatly covered by the baggage you assume by saying this: "in front of authority. You're confusing the system of corporations and militarized, near-alien nations with the modern liberal democracy. I think that the Itani might be acceptable candidates for your idea... but they're the only ones who have some built in moral aversion to violence per se. Basically, you're only offending the authority [faction/station] if you do something that upsets them. In 4470 or whatever the year is (ask the uraHIM if you want the precise date), killing alone isn't realistically (in the world of VO) going be that something.
(4) In the end, you want to do an in-game change for out-of-game reasons: greater protection from death. It's not that you're asking for the ability to protect yourself, since gaining faction already does that. What you want is to change the nature of the world in which the game is set for the sake of making it more n00b/care bear/'insert pejorative term for pussy-ass bitch here' friendly. I'd guess that most people get enough of the whole 'morality constantly enforced by threat of state violence' thing in everyday life... it has no place in this game. Your rhetorical question of "what government would let me..." has a very sound answer: the Serco, the gray-space corporations, even the non-UIT corporations and perhaps the UIT. I'll agree that the Itani are the sort of people who might get their panties in a twist over killing... and perhaps the change creating greater penalties for lawless behavior in Itani space would help race balance. I'd sure think twice before joining an oppressive, annoyingly moral race if I was making a character to play a game.
Long story short: Suck it up and build faction, 'cuz this isn't a civilized universe (except for those fucking smurfs up North).
That's mostly the real dispute here. I agree, however, that you should be able to fire at anyone with -600 or lower faction within the NFZ, so that wraps up the ability to defend part of your claim. As for the whole penalty for the mere act of station killing...
(1) I would say that VO's ideal is a little less civilized than RL. I can't go haul coal around for an hour or so IRL and quickly erase all consequences of a triple murder. You're confusing realism that remains faithful to the rough and less civilized world created in VO with 2007 here on Earth. Nice try, but no.
(2) The SF only launches if I shoot another player within the NFZ. Killing you (assuming you lack standing) 1001m from the station causes no issues at all. Thus, it's not the act but where you do it that causes the penalty: conversely, killing doesn't trouble the faction. And since violating the NFZ is a pretty petty offense, as even an accident causes it (one shot is all it takes), it makes sense that they leave you alone after a jump out and back. They're not stupid, it's just that they're not punishing the pilot for killing his target. They're traffic cops.
(3) There's already a consequence for killing, which is tied into the faction system. My fundamental disagreement with what you propose, however, is neatly covered by the baggage you assume by saying this: "in front of authority. You're confusing the system of corporations and militarized, near-alien nations with the modern liberal democracy. I think that the Itani might be acceptable candidates for your idea... but they're the only ones who have some built in moral aversion to violence per se. Basically, you're only offending the authority [faction/station] if you do something that upsets them. In 4470 or whatever the year is (ask the uraHIM if you want the precise date), killing alone isn't realistically (in the world of VO) going be that something.
(4) In the end, you want to do an in-game change for out-of-game reasons: greater protection from death. It's not that you're asking for the ability to protect yourself, since gaining faction already does that. What you want is to change the nature of the world in which the game is set for the sake of making it more n00b/care bear/'insert pejorative term for pussy-ass bitch here' friendly. I'd guess that most people get enough of the whole 'morality constantly enforced by threat of state violence' thing in everyday life... it has no place in this game. Your rhetorical question of "what government would let me..." has a very sound answer: the Serco, the gray-space corporations, even the non-UIT corporations and perhaps the UIT. I'll agree that the Itani are the sort of people who might get their panties in a twist over killing... and perhaps the change creating greater penalties for lawless behavior in Itani space would help race balance. I'd sure think twice before joining an oppressive, annoyingly moral race if I was making a character to play a game.
Long story short: Suck it up and build faction, 'cuz this isn't a civilized universe (except for those fucking smurfs up North).
kids read these forums.