Forums » Suggestions

Purchase Order missions; taken at Trade 3 / posted at Trade 6

Dec 01, 2012 Phaserlight link
Partially in response to this thread:

http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/26818

An idea struck me that I wanted to get down in writing.

It seems as though purchase order missions are a common sense idea; the problem is how to implement them such that they don't become cumbersome, tedious, or ineffective. There are plenty of items to craft in VO, and judging by the linked to thread there are probably many new players that are willing to help provide me with items needed for the crafting. Last night I was hauling Apicene ore to Sedina D14 to build something, and realized that five players could probably be working on the crafting mission in order to get it done. If only I could post what I needed and how much I would be willing to pay to the mission board.*

My proposal is this:

I would need Trade License 3 in order to see purchase order missions (similar to Skirmishes being available at Combat License 3), and I would need Trade License 6 in order to post purchase order missions.

Purchase order missions would last for 1 week, and would be available at the station at which they were posted. They would include a list of items needed, and a reward. Each purchase order mission could only be completed once, at the conclusion of which the items needed would be transferred to the poster's inventory at the station where the mission was offered, and the reward would be transferred to the supplier. As soon as a purchase order mission was taken, it would drop off the mission board. If the mission failed or was aborted, it would return to the mission board for the remainder of the week period and any partial deliveries would be returned to the supplier (although this is not how current missions work; if a player fails the client they lose any items partially delivered. Perhaps it would be the same way for purchase order missions).

The station would take 10% of everything the poster offered as a reward as a holding fee. For example, if I posted a mission asking for six Guardian Processor Cores and offered 50,000 credits and 29 Premium Xithricite Ore, the station would take 5,000 credits and 3 XiRite Ore, leaving the reward at 45,000 credits and 26 XiRite. If the mission was not completed, the reward would be returned to my inventory but the station would keep the 10% fee. The full amount of 50,000 credits and 29 XiRite would be taken from my inventory at the time I posted the mission.

Here is where it gets tricky:

You don't want there to be too many purchase order missions globally. Otherwise, the mission board gets flooded. As such, I would recommend that the stations make a credit surcharge on posting purchase order missions when there are a certain number of purchase order missions active. Say the baseline is 20 purchase order missions globally. If I want to post the 21st purchase order mission, I would need to pay 1,000 credits on top of the 10% holding fee. Every five purchase order missions above baseline, the surcharge would double. At 25 PO missions the surcharge would be 2,000. At 30 PO missions the surcharge would be 4,000. At 35 PO missions the surcharge would be 8,000, and so on and so forth. Obviously, the numbers can be tweaked; this is only my suggestion. In order to prevent one pilot from posting multiple "paper doll" PO missions to jack up the surcharge, I recommend each pilot be able to have only one PO mission active at a time (alternately this could be two PO missions per pilot, or even five PO missions per pilot, but there ought to be a hard cap as, for some players, money is no object. Money should be a factor, but not the only limiting factor).

When posting the mission, I need to have a list of items needed to select from. I can't make a purchase order for five robot unicorns if those don't exist in game (common sense). Furthermore, I shouldn't even be able to see a list of all items that exist in game. I suggest the list of qualified items be those of which at least 1 unit exist in the inventory of any pilots who have docked at the station at which I am posting the mission in last week. Consequently, the list of items I can request would vary from station to station. I can request more than one type of item in a single purchase order mission; the scope is up to me. The items I can offer as a reward would be those in my inventory at the current station, in addition to any credits.

There would be one-time missions that explain the system available when the player reaches Trade 3, and again when the player reaches Trade 6.

I think that covers everything, but if I have left anything out or if there are any loopholes feel free to point them out.

*TRI and TGFT have already attempted to work around this by using private message boards, price lists, etc.
Dec 01, 2012 Death Fluffy link
I think something similar to this has been asked for in different ways, but most specifically from the vantage of player to player trading.

1) I agree there should be some sort of station fee for the service. As long as that cost is hidden from the player who takes the mission I am fine with your concept. Otherwise, people are going to think they've been short changed if they only get 45,000cr out of 50,000cr and 26 out of 29 ore.

2) I disagree with limiting the number of 'purchase orders' that can be posted at any given time. Since the concern is that the mission board will be flooded with orders from all of the systems, then I would suggest a better organization system be in place to help sort through them.

3) I disagree that there are plenty of crafting missions. It is my opinion that apart from the new trident missions that most of the craftable items result in a net loss to the player crafting, with the exception of those who are in it for a different sort of reward such as the Superlight for racing.

Otherwise +1

Dec 01, 2012 TheRedSpy link
PO missions should not be global or they should be handled in a special category/database that can be filtered so you can find missions that want the exact delivery of what you want to mine/bot etc.. etc..

It requires a whole new system to be entered in the game it's not really viable under the current mission system without being severely limited or user unfriendly. If you consider the numbers you've put forward, it would be very easy for someone to abuse the system and corner the market.
Dec 01, 2012 Phaserlight link
If you consider the numbers you've put forward, it would be very easy for someone to abuse the system and corner the market.

How so? Examples?
Dec 01, 2012 TheRedSpy link
The kind of purchases that go on between players at the moment are only ones capship related, it's mostly stuff like SSS. If I wanted to buy all of the SSS on the marketplace and flood the system it wouldn't be hard to put a few bil in and vioala, there we have it.
Dec 01, 2012 Pizzasgood link
With Phaserlight's numbers, you would need 65 orders just to push the surcharge up to about 4M. If each character were limited to two orders, that would require thirty-three alts (all with trade 6), which requires seven accounts.

I think that's tedious enough to not really be called "very easy", even if it doesn't really require much actual effort.

I would however still prefer the "unlimited but more organized" approach. A total per-character limit would be acceptable, which could increase with trade level and possibly also get boosted by some of the trade badges. But global limits would be unnecessary complexity I think, especially with the current playerbase.
Dec 01, 2012 TheRedSpy link
I'm otherwise occupied so I can't crunch the numbers, but designing a system like this around the limitations of the mission system seems quite silly to me.
Dec 01, 2012 tarenty link
+1, add a category to the mission list for "Posted Missions." The mission board needs a sorting mechanic, so add that too: distance, type, etc.

EDIT: ^ As a system for Fluffy's 2) I disagree with limiting the number of 'purchase orders' that can be posted at any given time. Since the concern is that the mission board will be flooded with orders from all of the systems, then I would suggest a better organization system be in place to help sort through them.
Dec 01, 2012 Kabuloso link
+1

I really liked the idea. Just didn't like the part that creates hard limitation for newbies to even see the PO missions. I'd reduce this to 1.

As for limit to posting an offer, this could be limited to the player Trade license. Up to level 2 = 1 PO/station. Up to level 4 = 2/station. And so on...

Maybe an increase, or decrease of max number PO based in the player standing with that station. Or just increase/decrease the taxes.

And for sure, a good sorting method.

Edit: To make it easier to implement, I'd sugest to limit the PO to only 1 item type (any amount), for cash. No PO asking and offering items at the same time. Or you offer to sell for cash, or offer to buy for cash.
Dec 01, 2012 Armonia link
@Kabuloso



I really liked the idea. Just didn't like the part that creates hard limitation for newbies to even see the PO missions. I'd reduce this to 1.

-1

2) I disagree with limiting the number of 'purchase orders' that can be posted at any given time. Since the concern is that the mission board will be flooded with orders from all of the systems, then I would suggest a better organization system be in place to help sort through them.

+1
Dec 01, 2012 tarenty link
Newbs with trade 1 can get only a revenant, which hardly hauls anything and will make the PO missions seem like grinds. However, if these missions also awarded trade xp (not sure how that might be calculated) it might be better to offer them sooner than trade 3...
Dec 01, 2012 Kabuloso link
@Armonia
Somebody has to be the "Noobin Hood", kkkkkkk

I was thinking in someone wanting to buy those low level drone parts for a good cash. Newbies would be pleased to make some cash by collecting it.
They already have to kill lots of drones for the combat/small licenses. Knowing that they can profit in the player-player market in the process, would be a good improvement.

@Tarenty

+1 for Trade XP for these missions.
Dec 03, 2012 Alloh link
+1 to P2P trade

Just one change, make taxes collection happen outside de scope of trade. Like, if I place a 5000c purchase order for item, station first asks for 500c as tax, and after that collects the 5000c.

But I'd like also to extend this to cover other type of missions fostering multiplayer, as

1. Sell & Purchase items, P2P (Similar to OP, but includ selling)
(player-set price, station taxes, limited to non-regular or manufactured items as Samo, Lenb, widowmaker, etc)

2. Duel invites
3. Collective PvE invites (Queen/Levi hunt, etc)
4. Personal Escort / Hauler requests/offers
5. Training offers
6. add many new items, not sold in station. Scarcity raises the price...
etc...
Dec 03, 2012 Pizzasgood link
"But I'd like also to extend this to..."
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/new
Dec 03, 2012 meridian link
+1

I disagree with the global limits and increasing holding fees based on number of postings globally. In all honesty, a revamp of the way missions are displayed would likely be required to implement this suggestion. Perhaps it would be better to implement directly into the station interface somehow and not even use missions.

I would be in favor of limiting it to only one active posting per player as a means limiting the total postings. Plus, that would also help reduce the number of ridiculous offers posted. Want to offer 1c for ten queen cores? Ok, but you can't post a serious offer then. Also, for the case where a player has multiple trade offers they want to make in the near future, limiting it to one offer at a time will give them incentive to post a sweeter deal so that it gets fulfilled sooner.

Of course, if a player can only post one offer at a time, then they should also be able to cancel an existing offer provided no one has accepted the mission. Though, allowing a player to see exactly when their offer posing has been accepted is not a good idea either. I suggest making the cancellation process take an hour. The posting is canceled if at the end of that hour the mission is not active. Otherwise the player is told at the end of that hour that the posting couldn't be canceled.

I like the 10% withholding fee idea, but it does have some corner cases which it doesn't handle very well. Take the ten queen cores for 1c example again: what is 10% of 1c? Having a minimum withholding fee is a simple solution, but then there is also the corner case of low qty goods-for-goods trades to consider. For example, offering an External Hull for two 80MW Engines. So the withholding fee would be a second External Hull? That's a 50% withholding fee! Perhaps it would be better to make the withholding fee proportional to the volume of goods traded? I'm not sure exactly, but it requires some more thought at least...

Giving trade XP is a good idea too. I suggest making XP proportional to volume of goods delivered. Something like 100 XP or so per Revenant trip, which would be around 1000 XP per XC trip. However, I am concerned about how easy it might be for two players to trade the same XC load of scrap metal back and forth over and over again to rack up XP quickly. One solution might be to only award XP the first time you complete a purchase order for a given player each day. Although I suppose that would require including the name of the person making the offer, which might not be a good idea either...

As far as limiting the list of items available to a player to request, any item a player already has in their inventory at any station anywhere should be fair game since the player clearly already knows it exists. Items used in manufacturing missions as well as the item manufactured should also be available at stations with the manufacturing mission since all those items are listed in the mission description.

I'm also questioning whether it is a good idea to make all offers everywhere viewable from anywhere. The real issue being the ability to see the exact moment that a posting disappears from the list, thereby being a fairly good indication of where someone will be with what goods in the near future. My suggestion is to make the complete listing of offers viewable from anywhere, but in order to see which ones are not currently available (i.e. someone else has accepted), you actually have to visit the station posting it.
Dec 04, 2012 Alloh link
one more limit, after reading meridian's long post:

* P2P trade offers limited only to home station, whatever it is now. If you re-home, you lose previous offer, and credits already paid. With a warning, of course.

* And make it CREDIT-based (sell/buy), so no barter (itemX for itemY). So fee can allways be collected. With a minimum fee of 100c, so anything cheaper than 1,000c still costs 100c to sell/buy.
Dec 04, 2012 Phaserlight link
meridian brings up some good points.

As far as the 10% applying to small quantities, there are two ways I thought this might be handled. The first is simply to round up: if you are offering up to 10 qty goods as a reward, the station takes the first one no matter what. In this case you would have to always offer at least quantity 2 of whatever it was you are giving. I agree this makes cases where you want to offer a 80MW Displacement Engine not so practical, but perhaps this would drive high-value bartered items outside the station like it theoretically happens now (others might be privy to this; the highest value items I've ever traded are some of the rare weapons). This kind of falls in line with how the manufacturable cap ship parts are described: as black market items.

The second way to handle it would be to round to the nearest decimal. If the holding fee was 10%, I could offer up to 4 items or 4 credits without incurring any penalty. From qty 5 to qty 14 the holding fee would be 1, etc. This would make it easier to trade things like a 80MW engine using this system. However, it also may be less straightforward. In either case, the station should probably give you a prompt box saying "attention: we are going to take <x> credits and <y> items as a fee for using our service, do you want to proceed?".

I'm not a fan of giving trade XP for player-generated missions because I think it might be too easy for players to find a loophole in this system as per meridian's passing the scrap back and forth example. I'll leave this for other people to judge the best implementation.

Allowing players to request items that are already in their own inventory is a good idea; of course, this would fall within the station allowing the player to request any item in the inventory of any player that has docked at the current station within the last week. Allowing players to request items that are needed by manufacturing missions is also a good idea.

Allowing a player to cancel a mission s/he has posted is a good idea.

In your last paragraph it looks like you are suggesting a PO mission be viewable remotely, but not locally. I'm not sure how this would work; it might be too confusing to be able to see a mission from afar, but not when arriving at the actual station. There might be a clever way to implement this that I'm not considering.

Alloh:
And make it CREDIT-based (sell/buy), so no barter (itemX for itemY).

I disagree with this. I think it's important to allow players to offer comparative goods in this system. In my first example, where player A offers credits and XiRite for Guardian Cores, perhaps s/he hasn't been able to tackle Guardians effectively but is an adept miner. The system should facilitate player-to-player trade in as many ways as possible without causing imbalance or loopholes.
Jan 18, 2014 ryan reign link
+1
Jan 18, 2014 greenwall link
+1 for realz yo
Jan 19, 2014 csgno1 link
+1 to the concept, but not all the details.

This is similar: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28218

I'd think a limit of 2 or 3 missions per player at a time globally would work.

Also a way to post requested quantities should be by setting a maximum. For example if I want to buy SSS I should be able to post that I'll pay x per unit, so players can bring in as many units as they want up to that limit and get paid for it. The mission creator would set a maximum buy which would count down as people sold various quantities to the mission. When the max quantity is reached the mission disappears.