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/me looks at himself and wonders why he wasnt selected
oohh well
goes back to his slumber
oohh well
goes back to his slumber
to Firemage:
thanks, all questions answered. you are in the same state as i am, then (unsure of the future of the intended organization).
thanks, all questions answered. you are in the same state as i am, then (unsure of the future of the intended organization).
/me wonders why Renegade is not on there but he is
Candidates are voting for themselves? - I'd sooner vote for someone that placed their vote on an opposing candidate.
So what allows someone to become a candidate?
The idea that skill and time invested allows you to be a candidate is an issue. The factors do no reflect leadership. There is but a short list of knowledge that vets hold over the heads of players who have only spent half the time playing. Trade routes, enemy behavior, central locations (s9 atm), profit of goods, etc... will all change once the reset takes place. As it stands, the list of candidates was made based on oppions of vets, who believe an individual "deserves" to run in the election. This contradicts the whole idea of a collective decision and/or voting. There are too many factors that come into play, despite the position(s) in question, that should hold more weight then the given requirements. You're asking both wetbacks and vets to vote for a name. Although I support everyone's ambition and the general outcome of having some type of organization, I see no point in casting a vote when the method of candidate selection is far from clear.
So what allows someone to become a candidate?
The idea that skill and time invested allows you to be a candidate is an issue. The factors do no reflect leadership. There is but a short list of knowledge that vets hold over the heads of players who have only spent half the time playing. Trade routes, enemy behavior, central locations (s9 atm), profit of goods, etc... will all change once the reset takes place. As it stands, the list of candidates was made based on oppions of vets, who believe an individual "deserves" to run in the election. This contradicts the whole idea of a collective decision and/or voting. There are too many factors that come into play, despite the position(s) in question, that should hold more weight then the given requirements. You're asking both wetbacks and vets to vote for a name. Although I support everyone's ambition and the general outcome of having some type of organization, I see no point in casting a vote when the method of candidate selection is far from clear.
there are lots of candidates not voting for themselves.
Also somebody had to pick candidates or everybody would have ran and it would be a huge mess. Experience has to count for something and everybody on the list was thought to be capable of leading not just having skills. Heck some have not skills at all in fighting etc. There was a large group of Itani's that made the call. Somebody had to or it would never have gotten done
Also somebody had to pick candidates or everybody would have ran and it would be a huge mess. Experience has to count for something and everybody on the list was thought to be capable of leading not just having skills. Heck some have not skills at all in fighting etc. There was a large group of Itani's that made the call. Somebody had to or it would never have gotten done
The minutes will be up and freely visible on my forum in about an hour. Go read the whole IVC meeting there.
Two things - I agree with Ziffus. First off, I'll deal with my differences with his opinion:
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Candidates are voting for themselves? - I'd sooner vote for someone that placed their vote on an opposing candidate.
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#1 Rule in Politics - Only you know yourself the best. If you don't trust yourself to do the job, why should anyone else? Voting for another candidate may seem "honorable," but it's a vote of no confidence in yourself, and sends a message to your supporters that a better candidate is out there.
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For now, I would have waited for such an election until after the reset. Electing people now is very pointless, considering all defining factors between players are about to disappear. Wait until after the reset and look for good leaders.
Second, the idea that the list of candidates is picked by "blue vets" is a bad one. Please do not misunderstand my motives, I am not offended in any way because I was not picked. If I was, I would have had to decline the nomination, because it would have been a conflict of interest for me. (This is all said with a big "but," and here it is) BUT, assume for a second that a political enemy was excluded from the vote because his opponents managed to get him cut from the list of candidates. It needs to be an open election, akin to California's recall. To be on the ballot, you should have a nomination, a second, and a third (all verified). This would prevent most lame attempts (Kastin: Oh, I think I'll run! Cyrius: I'll nominate you), and allow a free and fair field for whoever wants to run. Like IO said, the best leader may not be a great warrior. Also, by opening the field you would be able to deny charges of rigging the election (for instance, nominate two pirates, regardless of which one wins, you still get a pirate elected, even if he was "chosen"). I was surprised to see such a list and not be on it, and hopefully you guys will think about what I've suggested here.
In closing, good luck, and remember what's been said about the government in the past. Your dominion extends as far as those that put themselves under it. Don't try to exceed control, and don't diminish into oblivion. I look forward to much role-playing after the reset.
- DS4
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Candidates are voting for themselves? - I'd sooner vote for someone that placed their vote on an opposing candidate.
----
#1 Rule in Politics - Only you know yourself the best. If you don't trust yourself to do the job, why should anyone else? Voting for another candidate may seem "honorable," but it's a vote of no confidence in yourself, and sends a message to your supporters that a better candidate is out there.
-----------------------------------------------
For now, I would have waited for such an election until after the reset. Electing people now is very pointless, considering all defining factors between players are about to disappear. Wait until after the reset and look for good leaders.
Second, the idea that the list of candidates is picked by "blue vets" is a bad one. Please do not misunderstand my motives, I am not offended in any way because I was not picked. If I was, I would have had to decline the nomination, because it would have been a conflict of interest for me. (This is all said with a big "but," and here it is) BUT, assume for a second that a political enemy was excluded from the vote because his opponents managed to get him cut from the list of candidates. It needs to be an open election, akin to California's recall. To be on the ballot, you should have a nomination, a second, and a third (all verified). This would prevent most lame attempts (Kastin: Oh, I think I'll run! Cyrius: I'll nominate you), and allow a free and fair field for whoever wants to run. Like IO said, the best leader may not be a great warrior. Also, by opening the field you would be able to deny charges of rigging the election (for instance, nominate two pirates, regardless of which one wins, you still get a pirate elected, even if he was "chosen"). I was surprised to see such a list and not be on it, and hopefully you guys will think about what I've suggested here.
In closing, good luck, and remember what's been said about the government in the past. Your dominion extends as far as those that put themselves under it. Don't try to exceed control, and don't diminish into oblivion. I look forward to much role-playing after the reset.
- DS4
We tried to do the open nominations thing. It didn't work too well.
Care to explain why?
Go pm me somewhere. I'm too lazy now. :D
Minutes uploaded to http://itani.roguelazer.com/102603_IVC_Minutes.html
These are the minutes of the meeting that started it all. Full-length IRC logs are available upon request.
Minutes uploaded to http://itani.roguelazer.com/102603_IVC_Minutes.html
These are the minutes of the meeting that started it all. Full-length IRC logs are available upon request.
"Voting for another candidate may seem "honorable," but it's a vote of no confidence in yourself, and sends a message to your supporters that a better candidate is out there."
Those on the list were not put there to vote for themselves. No confidence would be reflected by declining the opportunity to run for the position, not voting for an opposing candidate. The message of a better candidate will be left to the supporters and by the candidates voting. The whole idea of a public pole - is for the public to decide. Since the public had no say in who was to run for the positions at hand, the idea of voting for one's self can contradict all of which as been set. Honorable intentions acompany honorable decisions. The whole poll is based on 'honor' and loyalty to the nation.
Sorry FM. I know you said "ONLY REPLY IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION." I believe all of which is revolving around the general questions at hand.
Those on the list were not put there to vote for themselves. No confidence would be reflected by declining the opportunity to run for the position, not voting for an opposing candidate. The message of a better candidate will be left to the supporters and by the candidates voting. The whole idea of a public pole - is for the public to decide. Since the public had no say in who was to run for the positions at hand, the idea of voting for one's self can contradict all of which as been set. Honorable intentions acompany honorable decisions. The whole poll is based on 'honor' and loyalty to the nation.
Sorry FM. I know you said "ONLY REPLY IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION." I believe all of which is revolving around the general questions at hand.
1st of all: nobody invited me to a nation i dint complain i was fine with being nationless... if i wanted to switch nations it was my decision alone...
2nd: as it is that i am now officially loyal to the nuetral nation i dont think me being the commander of an itani fleet would be a very good idea... does anyone feel differently about this? if so please explain...
3rd: as it is that the candidates were decided by vets it would be more logical that vets would vote for players they trust and feel could handel the job... no offense to any of the nominees (sp?) but someone like shamil randeva(sp on the last name) was completely good for the election, rene as well, shamil doesnt play much anymore but some people (no offense to scuba but he is a good example) like scubasteve are very popular... now im sure that they were not voted for out of popularity but yeah... some people dont think of it that way and btw last i checked he was a pirate so that makes little sense to me...
i dont mean to sound resentful im just laying it out as it lays from where i am...
-io
sorry if i came off being disrespectful to any or you...
2nd: as it is that i am now officially loyal to the nuetral nation i dont think me being the commander of an itani fleet would be a very good idea... does anyone feel differently about this? if so please explain...
3rd: as it is that the candidates were decided by vets it would be more logical that vets would vote for players they trust and feel could handel the job... no offense to any of the nominees (sp?) but someone like shamil randeva(sp on the last name) was completely good for the election, rene as well, shamil doesnt play much anymore but some people (no offense to scuba but he is a good example) like scubasteve are very popular... now im sure that they were not voted for out of popularity but yeah... some people dont think of it that way and btw last i checked he was a pirate so that makes little sense to me...
i dont mean to sound resentful im just laying it out as it lays from where i am...
-io
sorry if i came off being disrespectful to any or you...
Note to IO: This is a very active topic. This post was being created while you posted yours so this post does not respond to yours. Maybe it could answer a few things.
Alright, there is much said here. I find what you people have said interesting so it's ok that they aren't direct questions or that they aren't questions at all. I suggest you read this entire thread if you're a bit against this.
Renegade, I'm very sorry. Perhaps it's because we haven't seen you on as much. There are many Itani Nation members that may probably prove well as being part of the council, but we didn't remember them to nominate them. Nomination was done by the people who are now the candidates ( Suprise! ), minus Pyro, ScubaSteve, and Eldrad.
The next section of this post will be in the format of a question (Q) or topic (T) with fact (F) or my opinion (O) proceeding it.
---
Q: Why did we do it with those select people at that select time?
F: Something that isn't in the world of fairness: coincidence. We did not delay it to make any more fair since this was the only time that there were a large amount of active and honorable Itani Nation members.
Q: Why didn't we go through nomination with the entire Itani Nation instead of the Itani Nation members that were called to the meeting?
F: That is because the meeting just happened to... happen. We were ill planned.
T: The list of candidates was made based on opinions of vets, who believe an individual "deserves" to run in the election.
F: The list of candidates as said was based on the unfairness of coincidence. It was a coincidence to have these Itani Nation members online during that time. But that doesn't mean these players are not suitable for what we were doing here. All the candidates in the election have been nominated by eachother. Again, I'm sorry we didn't include the opinion of the rest of the Itani Nation. There is no good reason to support it so I only state why it is that way. The reason has actually been already stated above this paragraph.
T: Candidates are voting for themselves.
F+O: The people of the meeting chose this to be allowed. I'm not a supporter of this. But I did vote for myself (Hey! An example of a type of a hypocrite which can be used in the "Learn how to argue well:" thread!). Why? I want to show that I don't think I'm not suitable for the job. After seeing many voting for themself, I'd feel pretty strange voting for someone else.
Q: But why even nominate now?
O+F: When the reset happens, we'd have a group that'd be able to stick together and work together to figure out the dynamic economy and the best ways to gain money. Else, we'd be playing in the style we are right now where teamchat is hardly used unless someone is asking for directions to a sector they have never been to.
Q: Why not just ask players to work together when the reset happens instead of having a council and military?
O+F: Well, ever try to round random players up? They don't seem to respond; most players are silent. If you form a group, will they even cooperate? I've only been able to create teamwork by actually stealing the flag. Trade groups forming out of no where are rare.
Q: How do we know these people are best suited for a situation we have never been in?
O: I don't actually think this situation will be much different. It's only going to be stations with trade good prices constantly changing. This only means traders need to work harder. Maybe there will also be missions, so there also need to be more teamwork in this universe. These people who will form the council will devise plans for the traders supporting the council and military. In turn, the military will protect the traders (As you can see, this will require many players. Mostly a dedicated nation.). The traders will receive more profit than the same amount of traders trading solo and will be able to supply the superfluous (also determined by council) credits to the council which will be relayed to the military units. The candidates are all capable of thinking of plans and rules as they also know the game well. You might be wondering why I labeled this entire thing as opinion... It's because I thought up of this system. The Itani Nation Military is still under planning (trading is part of the Itani Itani Military).
---
To be honest, some of the questions I tried hard to think of rational reasons. Now that I think of it, it'd be much more interesting to create a group of people that will work together after the reset to figure out and hypothesize how the game will be like from then on, designing and planning a "government" (I put this is quotes since the some Itani Nation members do not wish this to be called a government but a council and military.) that is most adapted for the situation instead of voting for a council right at this moment... Wait. After saying this... I see that that's what the council is. The council will analyze the situation once there has been a reset and mold the council and military to be most adaptive to the new universe. I assure you, the candidates are capable of doing this (except maybe a few :P).
Alright, there is much said here. I find what you people have said interesting so it's ok that they aren't direct questions or that they aren't questions at all. I suggest you read this entire thread if you're a bit against this.
Renegade, I'm very sorry. Perhaps it's because we haven't seen you on as much. There are many Itani Nation members that may probably prove well as being part of the council, but we didn't remember them to nominate them. Nomination was done by the people who are now the candidates ( Suprise! ), minus Pyro, ScubaSteve, and Eldrad.
The next section of this post will be in the format of a question (Q) or topic (T) with fact (F) or my opinion (O) proceeding it.
---
Q: Why did we do it with those select people at that select time?
F: Something that isn't in the world of fairness: coincidence. We did not delay it to make any more fair since this was the only time that there were a large amount of active and honorable Itani Nation members.
Q: Why didn't we go through nomination with the entire Itani Nation instead of the Itani Nation members that were called to the meeting?
F: That is because the meeting just happened to... happen. We were ill planned.
T: The list of candidates was made based on opinions of vets, who believe an individual "deserves" to run in the election.
F: The list of candidates as said was based on the unfairness of coincidence. It was a coincidence to have these Itani Nation members online during that time. But that doesn't mean these players are not suitable for what we were doing here. All the candidates in the election have been nominated by eachother. Again, I'm sorry we didn't include the opinion of the rest of the Itani Nation. There is no good reason to support it so I only state why it is that way. The reason has actually been already stated above this paragraph.
T: Candidates are voting for themselves.
F+O: The people of the meeting chose this to be allowed. I'm not a supporter of this. But I did vote for myself (Hey! An example of a type of a hypocrite which can be used in the "Learn how to argue well:" thread!). Why? I want to show that I don't think I'm not suitable for the job. After seeing many voting for themself, I'd feel pretty strange voting for someone else.
Q: But why even nominate now?
O+F: When the reset happens, we'd have a group that'd be able to stick together and work together to figure out the dynamic economy and the best ways to gain money. Else, we'd be playing in the style we are right now where teamchat is hardly used unless someone is asking for directions to a sector they have never been to.
Q: Why not just ask players to work together when the reset happens instead of having a council and military?
O+F: Well, ever try to round random players up? They don't seem to respond; most players are silent. If you form a group, will they even cooperate? I've only been able to create teamwork by actually stealing the flag. Trade groups forming out of no where are rare.
Q: How do we know these people are best suited for a situation we have never been in?
O: I don't actually think this situation will be much different. It's only going to be stations with trade good prices constantly changing. This only means traders need to work harder. Maybe there will also be missions, so there also need to be more teamwork in this universe. These people who will form the council will devise plans for the traders supporting the council and military. In turn, the military will protect the traders (As you can see, this will require many players. Mostly a dedicated nation.). The traders will receive more profit than the same amount of traders trading solo and will be able to supply the superfluous (also determined by council) credits to the council which will be relayed to the military units. The candidates are all capable of thinking of plans and rules as they also know the game well. You might be wondering why I labeled this entire thing as opinion... It's because I thought up of this system. The Itani Nation Military is still under planning (trading is part of the Itani Itani Military).
---
To be honest, some of the questions I tried hard to think of rational reasons. Now that I think of it, it'd be much more interesting to create a group of people that will work together after the reset to figure out and hypothesize how the game will be like from then on, designing and planning a "government" (I put this is quotes since the some Itani Nation members do not wish this to be called a government but a council and military.) that is most adapted for the situation instead of voting for a council right at this moment... Wait. After saying this... I see that that's what the council is. The council will analyze the situation once there has been a reset and mold the council and military to be most adaptive to the new universe. I assure you, the candidates are capable of doing this (except maybe a few :P).
" Well, ever try to round random players up? They don't seem to respond; most players are silent. If you form a group, will they even cooperate? I've only been able to create teamwork by actually stealing the flag. Trade groups forming out of no where are rare."
-Psssh. Maybe for you Itani. The entire reason I switched to NT from Itani is because when people do a "Calling all Golds. . ." in team chat they can usually get a 60% response rate. I think the problem lies with a large amount of the people in your nation either
a.) Being there out of convenience (Valk.)
b.) Being complete Newbies who picked it because it was the default or blue was their favorite color.
or c.) Non-Itani that happen to be using an Itani char for some reason or other.
I think the idea of a government is a good one. Just not for the reasons above.
-Psssh. Maybe for you Itani. The entire reason I switched to NT from Itani is because when people do a "Calling all Golds. . ." in team chat they can usually get a 60% response rate. I think the problem lies with a large amount of the people in your nation either
a.) Being there out of convenience (Valk.)
b.) Being complete Newbies who picked it because it was the default or blue was their favorite color.
or c.) Non-Itani that happen to be using an Itani char for some reason or other.
I think the idea of a government is a good one. Just not for the reasons above.
hmm... well i see what fm is talking about and now i see that the council was an imprompto situation... so you couldnt really gather everyone for the nomination process...
idea: why dont you have a time and place that could be comfortable for all and re-nominate people... i know it would be going backwards but people wouldnt be so angry about it, if it was reheld for everyone to take place in...
i dont mean to remove any of the nominees from the ballot but other people are suitable too, though it is not my place to say so or not...
-io
gold needs to start this up as well... it would be a little bit helpful...
idea: why dont you have a time and place that could be comfortable for all and re-nominate people... i know it would be going backwards but people wouldnt be so angry about it, if it was reheld for everyone to take place in...
i dont mean to remove any of the nominees from the ballot but other people are suitable too, though it is not my place to say so or not...
-io
gold needs to start this up as well... it would be a little bit helpful...
I tried to talk to as many vets in game as possible b4 I even posted this idea on Rougelazers forum. However I do not know all the vets new chars and I could not account for people not active atm. There was a post in rougelazers forum about anybody that should be nominated which I made. I mentioned the post to as many Itani as I could so people would know about it.
One of the main reasons I wanted to get this going was for people to start participating more as a whole. So far, even if the military fails that is a huge success.
I do not like what the community has become atm and I thought this would be a step in the right direction. Will it work? I have no clue. I hope it can because it can better the game play for all nations.
Yes there are many things that could have been done better, but with the low participation levels of late it had to start somewhere and this is a good start imo. There are set council terms so there will be more elections in the future for others to be in if they so wish. We took advantage of an unusually high active rate to get this whole thing in motion or it would still be just a post on Rougelazer's forum.
I am constantly surprised by the ability of people to point out every flaw and "bad" thing about an idea or concept brought forth. This is a post to let Itani players know they can vote if they wish to do so. They do not have to. They do not have to support the military, though I hope they do. Maybe if we can get a positive start to this the next time elections come around it can be done the way you wish them to be and you can have more input.
Thankyou
One of the main reasons I wanted to get this going was for people to start participating more as a whole. So far, even if the military fails that is a huge success.
I do not like what the community has become atm and I thought this would be a step in the right direction. Will it work? I have no clue. I hope it can because it can better the game play for all nations.
Yes there are many things that could have been done better, but with the low participation levels of late it had to start somewhere and this is a good start imo. There are set council terms so there will be more elections in the future for others to be in if they so wish. We took advantage of an unusually high active rate to get this whole thing in motion or it would still be just a post on Rougelazer's forum.
I am constantly surprised by the ability of people to point out every flaw and "bad" thing about an idea or concept brought forth. This is a post to let Itani players know they can vote if they wish to do so. They do not have to. They do not have to support the military, though I hope they do. Maybe if we can get a positive start to this the next time elections come around it can be done the way you wish them to be and you can have more input.
Thankyou
" -Psssh. Maybe for you Itani. The entire reason I switched to NT from Itani is because when people do a "Calling all Golds. . ." in team chat they can usually get a 60% response rate. "
30% don't respond? I meant that much. That's a lot if you think about it. The people in the 30% probably only play for an hour and then someone else logs on to fill in the 30% meaning more players make up the 30% than the active 60%. I did mean all nations. When I said what I said, I looked at the active list (which i see easily any time) thought it's around there.
Also, I actually meant for situations where you're rounding people that you never talked to up. Of course people you know will participate and cooperate.
So I was assuming the veteran's won't be on at all (of course some will be on though), and we have the council to schedule a time for all of us to get on and examine the new universe.
When it comes to vet's, all of them will respond. When it comes to new players, they aren't actually representatives of the nation they are on until they actually start doing things (communicating, capturing flags), so if all vets respond and the new players don't, I'd call it a 100% response.
30% don't respond? I meant that much. That's a lot if you think about it. The people in the 30% probably only play for an hour and then someone else logs on to fill in the 30% meaning more players make up the 30% than the active 60%. I did mean all nations. When I said what I said, I looked at the active list (which i see easily any time) thought it's around there.
Also, I actually meant for situations where you're rounding people that you never talked to up. Of course people you know will participate and cooperate.
So I was assuming the veteran's won't be on at all (of course some will be on though), and we have the council to schedule a time for all of us to get on and examine the new universe.
When it comes to vet's, all of them will respond. When it comes to new players, they aren't actually representatives of the nation they are on until they actually start doing things (communicating, capturing flags), so if all vets respond and the new players don't, I'd call it a 100% response.
just wanted to bump it since this is the last day
hey sorry that i havent replyed in a while, i only get on the computer every other day cause i have my sister to have it the other day....
back to topic:
fm has a point, 40% (not 30%) is a lot of people that could help... with the itani system set up the % will more than likely bump up a bit... im not saying that it will be a great revolutionalizing idea but it could be helpful more than what the serco and gold have...
that is only my opinion though...
-io
back to topic:
fm has a point, 40% (not 30%) is a lot of people that could help... with the itani system set up the % will more than likely bump up a bit... im not saying that it will be a great revolutionalizing idea but it could be helpful more than what the serco and gold have...
that is only my opinion though...
-io