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Separating Roleplay and Reality.

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Nov 07, 2015 jordanmorgan14f link
I feel like a lot of us, especially long time vets and those that just can't seem to be descent human being with a screen in front of them, just can't seem to discuss things in these forums without it turning into a cock fight. I am guilty of this myself. But today I witnessed long time players attack and belittle the efforts of John Bergamn (Incarnate), one of the developers of this game. I really want to believe that it is just Roleplay personas leaking into a real life discussion. If not, then some of you are just pieces of shit.

Let's be real for a moment. My name is Jordan Morgan, I moved around alot as a kid, went to 7 different high schools, lived in 6 different states. I was a Marine Corps brat. I started playing this game when I was 18, in 2013, on the mobile platform. I fell in love with the complexity and Roleplay interaction. I joined the North Carolina (where I currently reside) National Guard in 2013. Due to military training and life issues i didnt play for more than a year. I started playing again in September of 2015, this time on PC. Alot of things have improved, and yes, there is still parts of the game that leave me wanting. But it is still the same game I used to love, and it still has the same potential to be great. Probably like alot of you, I struggle to make ends meet, I'm still in the NG, which is a few hundred bucks a month, and full time I currently flip burgers for a living.

I play this game for the same reasons alot of you do. I play to escape the stresses of everyday life, and I play for an opportunity to feel successful about something. My in-game character, Galanoth, is the venting version of me. I can be a complete dick, without any real life consequences. When I have a bad day at work, I can come home and vent my frustrations and stresses on all of you fuckers. And you know the best part? All I do is subscribe, 10 bucks a month. I don't invest my life onto this game. I don't take life changing risks for this game. This game isn't my primary source of income, it doesn't put food on my plate. And it's a great game. Vets wouldn't have stuck around for 13 years if it wasn't.

That being said, it is the developers primary source of income, it does put food on their table. Maybe even not much. And they put alot of effort into doing something that they love, and that we love. It's pretty damn shitty to throw their failures and shortcoming in their face. I've never had an inquiry or question go unanswered, no matter how vague the answer may be. I have always seen an effort put forth by the devs. And I've never seen a player banned or insulted, even after the most toxic and counterproductive posts.
This is still a small game, with minimum funding, and microscopic employee sheet. Have some understanding, put aside your jaded personas, and play this badass game. I'd you don't like the game, fuck off. If you are frustrated. Be productive. Be active in its development, advertise, tell your friends about it. But until you put the same blood, sweat, and tears(metaphorically?) Into VO as the creators do, don't put them down.
If you give a comment, please share who you are behind the screen, and try and keep the discussion productive.
Nov 07, 2015 TheRedSpy link
Don't be a carebear Galanoth.

It's a business, customers complain about every product and service at every opportunity.

It doesn't mean we have to share life stories this isn't the first post that incarnate has responded to as such and if history has taught us anything it won't be the last.
Nov 07, 2015 joylessjoker link
We all get it, you're pissed about a couple of kids giving inc a hard time. Now, chill out.

Nov 07, 2015 jordanmorgan14f link
I don't understand why on one hand, people claim it is a business and they have a right to complain however they want, but in the other hand, it is wrong for the devs to make business decisions because it doesn't cater to the long-time playerbase. It really isn't me being a "carebear" its be being a human being and understanding that this business is there lifeline. Just because it is a business doesn't make it ok to insult their efforts and bash them about things you probably don't even know about. It's just sad to me, seeing a bunch of adults smear someone over delays and such beyond everyone's control. If I worked at a resteraunt and got slammed at a lunch rush, it would still be pretty fucked up to tell me how incompetent I am because you got your food late. Now imagine the undertaking of creating a game as complicated and underfunded as this, with, what 4 people? And balancing making business decisions to keep your belly full, and the endless needs and wants of an impatient playerbase.Yes it is a business. There are bound to be complaints. But in the real world when you don't like or appreciate the business, you don't keep going back to throw it in their face, you find somewhere else to take your business.
Nov 07, 2015 tramshed link
Neither Inc or you addressed what I said. Theres a large pool of talented people who want to help, why arent we allowed to? And dont think its not for trying. Every few years we try to help out and get told the same bullshit. They cant due to legal reasons. They keep saying how they are understaffed and cant afford help. Seems like they dont want help to me.

So yeah, fuck you and your life story. Ive had a far worse time.
Nov 07, 2015 teddyrandell link
Kudos to you, Jordan, your last reply makes complete sense. I agree with you. But if you'd paid attention to what has been said on the forums over the years, or seen the right posts or whatever, you might have noticed that Incarnate has carefully explained the situation over and over again, but there are always going to be some people who WON'T SHUT UP. No matter who asks them to. All you are doing is giving the trolls/unhappy people a new post to plaster their crap on.

Nov 07, 2015 genka link
Nov 07, 2015 jordanmorgan14f link
Hey tramshed, I didn't post any of this for a pity party or to have a contest of who has had it the worst. I didn't mention any of the bullshit Ive gone through. I posted my "life story?" to try and put things into perspective. If you are taking VO so seriously that you have to rage on the forums, offering nothing but criticism and your dislike of the laws in place, than you shouldn't invest so much into it, it sounds unhealthy for you. If you don't take VO that seriously, than there is no reason to be so enraged in the first place, and you should go play on PenguinClub.com.

@joyless, you seem to always comment on my posts believing I am emotially distraught or something. "Chill the fuck out" is exactly what I am trying to say.If you are so passionate about this game, then try and be positive about it. If you are not, than again, move the hell on with your life.

@teddy I don't know how many non-players ever visit our forums, but if they do, all they will see is the jaded criticism of bitchy men-children. I posted merely to attempt to change the narrative, and she'd some positive light on the efforts of the devs. If anything maybe some vistor, already pessimistic as a result of the endless criticism of GS, will see things in a different way and give VO a try.
Nov 07, 2015 greenwall link
Galanoth, if I've learned anything about these forums it's that you should always expect certain people to be cunts, even if you make the most reasonable, unbiased, and heartfelt comment possible. Already this has proven to be true in this thread.

In the same way you feel like it's appropriate/reasonable to be a dick in game (thanks to anonymity and not having to deal with any consequences in RL - though you might have put that in jeopardy by telling your real name and bio here, lol), some people feel the same way HERE in the forums. Levelling unfiltered remarks and insults without giving any consideration for how the recieving party might take them (or, worse, levelling them hoping the recieving party will feel them) is unfortunately the norm for some people here. They are pieces of shit, and they are here to stay.

I don't agree with the equivocation of being human and having "feelings" as that of being a "Carebear," and I applaud your effort in explaining your appreciation for the game. That said it certainly isn't the first time this kind of thing has been addressed by Incarnate, as TRS said, and it won't be the last. VO is great and has so much potential to be so much more. There will ALWAYS be a struggle between what the players want/think-can-happen and what actually happens.

Incarnate is a big boy and can clearly handle the criticism, even if it's unfair. Otherwise he'd probably have a tighter leash on what is acceptable in this forum.
Nov 07, 2015 tramshed link
greenwall, that much I can agree on.

I wish my shit talking was unfounded.
Nov 07, 2015 jordanmorgan14f link
Greenwall I completely agree and I do understand that after 13 years, certain issue not being addressed can get on your nerves, especially if you are truly passionate about the game. I know it won't be the last time. But Incarnate responded in a pretty genuine and passionate way. Be wants to give us a game that we will appreciate and back up. My reason for this post was to possibly tap into some of your inner "carebear" and try and address the situation in a mature way. Incarnate obviously has a thick skin, otherwise he would've abandoned this project a long time ago. But if all he hears is how he and GS are failing, it is bound to affect his motivation and passion. I don't know about you guys, but when I am credited for my successes and pushed to complete goals my performance is a lot better. All I'm suggesting is that if you feel like you are part of the team because you subscribe, than act like a team.
Nov 07, 2015 joylessjoker link
@joyless, you seem to always comment on my posts believing I am emotially distraught or something. "Chill the fuck out" is exactly what I am trying to say.If you are so passionate about this game, then try and be positive about it. If you are not, than again, move the hell on with your life.

I suggest you go look at that Vendetta 1.9 thread again. Do you see me as one of the trollers pulling Inc down? Nah, I wasn't one of them. I was never negative about the game or towards the devs. I believe they are doing the best they can, and I don't see the need to complain about anything in the game.

However, I also believe that you're unnecessarily taking this drama to a whole new level. You keep claiming that you're not emotionally invested or anything, yet you keep showing strong feelings in your posts. There's nothing wrong with being emotionally invested into a game even if it's lame, but at least be honest with yourself.
Nov 07, 2015 joylessjoker link
I posted merely to attempt to change the narrative, and she'd some positive light on the efforts of the devs. If anything maybe some vistor, already pessimistic as a result of the endless criticism of GS, will see things in a different way and give VO a try.

A sign of.... Messiah complex! Honestly though, you're exaggerating the state of the forums a teeny bit. Thus far out of like 200 regular forum posters, only roughly three individuals have consistently bothered the devs about not updating the game as much as they like. Those three individuals don't even make posts very often.
Nov 08, 2015 tramshed link
she'd?

As for the three. They have been promising us massive changes for almost twenty years. Shit never happend.

"Coming Soon" is a joke. I frankly have no clue how they have managed to do so little in so long.

The long awaited "faction reduex" was just pick a new faction. took them a decade to make that happen.
Nov 08, 2015 csgno1 link
Auto-correct I suspect.
Nov 08, 2015 incarnate link
To those offering support, I appreciate it.

Neither Inc or you addressed what I said. Theres a large pool of talented people who want to help, why arent we allowed to? And dont think its not for trying. Every few years we try to help out and get told the same bullshit. They cant due to legal reasons. They keep saying how they are understaffed and cant afford help. Seems like they dont want help to me.

I didn't respond on that point, because I hit my limit of confusing "problems" that seem to exist largely in your head (much like your EULA conspiracies and.. wtf?). I seriously don't know what you're talking about. Years ago I even created a whole sticky thread about the path for people to create content for VO. As long as they sign over all IP rights, I don't have any particular problem? And I've never had a problem. I mean, that is the entire basis of the PCC (and what you sign on joining, is an assignment of intellectual property). Feel free to direct me to a thread (PCC or otherwise) where I said people couldn't help us for legal reasons?

The reality we have experienced is that there are far fewer people who are willing to make serious contributions than your statement implies. Historically we have gotten 1) large quantities of low-quality content (basically useless), or 2) very small quantities of high-quality content, and 3) a whole lot of incomplete content that isn't really very helpful.

Tramshed, you're really frustrated with us (me) for not making the changes you wanted. I totally get that. But your individual points about "why" and "what" we're doing wrong are all.. super confused, and some seem a little loopy (like paid corporate EULA conspiracies). I don't know what you tell you more bluntly than "everything you just claimed is wrong", which is what I actually said.

Keep being frustrated at me for the lack of game changes, that we can.. agree on? At least in principle? But maybe drop some of these other notions of how you think we won't support the PCC or whatever else.

They have been promising us massive changes for almost twenty years. Shit never happend.

Shit like this doesn't help your case. We've been online (space-quake alpha) since March of 2002, and frankly, the game massively changed between 2002-2004 (retail release: November of 2004). So you're really talking 2005+, which is 10 years, exactly half of what you claimed.

Be pissed at me, that's fine, but maybe stop the outlandish hand-waving. Keep it at least adjacent to reality?

The long awaited "faction reduex" was just pick a new faction. took them a decade to make that happen.

The problem with your criticism is that all the data is still public, in the RFC posts I made in 2007. Namely: On The Removal of Friendly Fire, and then Faction System Changes. The goals stated there were to.. reduce the usage of friendly fire, and to have mutual exclusivity in faction standings (along with the creation of "temp KoS" and "kill forgiveness" and other concepts). I don't know what "faction redux" you were expecting. I was pretty specific about what to expect. Again, I don't have a lot of control over what idea is in your head.

It did take too long to implement overall (but not a decade), and was done piecemeal (some parts long ago, some more recently), but the stuff I described in 2007 is largely now in the game. I'm sure we'll continue tweaking it forever, but that's not really the point.. we implemented the stuff I described.
Nov 08, 2015 Dr. Lecter link
There are way too many feelings in this thread. This is the Internet - we do not discuss feelings here. Go drink, go fuck, go jump off a cliff into the ocean wearing nothing but a wingsuit-CCR...but JesuscatfuckingChrist, leave the feelings out of it.

I don't know about you guys, but when I am credited for my successes and pushed to complete goals my performance is a lot better.

I just wasted my entire annual allotment of self-control on not making a burger-flipper joke. The next 12 months of my forum posts' tone are on you, dude.
Nov 08, 2015 Rhine link
I still can't find a clue on what's wrong with everyone (no offense)
Nov 08, 2015 VO Rankings link
No worries RMJ. Me neither.
Nov 08, 2015 TheRedSpy link
I echo lecter on the comments about feelings. Text posts on forums are such a bad way to communicate feelings its not even worth the pursuit of doing so. However I think one positive thing has come out of this discussion but I will need to check a few older posts before I reveal what that is.