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What you said about taoism and Serco culture set me off...
But I was totally uncapable of finding a symbol that unites cyborgisation and coexistence with nature in a simple enough way (in my opinion, flags and national emblems have to be simple. But that's just me).
A few ideas that whizzed through my brain and the resons for my immediate dismissal of them:
A hand, partially machine, partially flesh and bone. Dismissed because a) where do we cut the hand? If we put thumb and index in flesh, that means something we don't want to convey (equality...), and the other way it's the same in sky blue.
A cyborg with opened cranium, showing the brain, kind of like maybe Shirow would have done it. Too gory.
(Now that I think about it, I could go leech from Shirow... naw.)
A 'deus ex machina', a figure (maybe a woman, remember Lady Serco?) rising from machinery. Too complex. Has also been used too often.
But I was totally uncapable of finding a symbol that unites cyborgisation and coexistence with nature in a simple enough way (in my opinion, flags and national emblems have to be simple. But that's just me).
A few ideas that whizzed through my brain and the resons for my immediate dismissal of them:
A hand, partially machine, partially flesh and bone. Dismissed because a) where do we cut the hand? If we put thumb and index in flesh, that means something we don't want to convey (equality...), and the other way it's the same in sky blue.
A cyborg with opened cranium, showing the brain, kind of like maybe Shirow would have done it. Too gory.
(Now that I think about it, I could go leech from Shirow... naw.)
A 'deus ex machina', a figure (maybe a woman, remember Lady Serco?) rising from machinery. Too complex. Has also been used too often.
Shapenaji,
allow me to clerify:
i'm an ignorant american, and as such when i said "japaniese", what would have more acurately decribed my intent was this: the Itani have a more eastern phylosophy (in truth it's most similar to the Indian Hindu/budist phylosophy) where spiritual advancment and wisdom are prised over imediat practicality. Additionaly the Itani pratice martial arts as a means of achieving spiritual advancment.
Whereas the Serco have a more Western phylosophy, prising sceintific and technologicle advancment over spiritual advancment.
although parallels from Japan, China, Europ, and the americas can be drawn for both the Itani and Serco, i think the Serco are best paralleled by western philosophy (a combination of European, and Native American, best describes it to me), and the Itani are best paralleled by eastern philosophy (a combination of Indian, and Japaniese, best describes it in my opinion).
Cunjo,
yea, i din't mean to inply you plajerised the designe, i actulay like the ensignia you perposed. I think it's the one tall point in the center with the smaller points to either side (especialy the one with the curved points).
toshiro,
have you concidered something like Da'vinchi's Vitruvian Man (perhaps a Vitruvian Woman if you want to maintain the allusion to Lady Serco) with some of the limbs being mechanicle in sort of a Vitruvian Cyborg manner.
allow me to clerify:
i'm an ignorant american, and as such when i said "japaniese", what would have more acurately decribed my intent was this: the Itani have a more eastern phylosophy (in truth it's most similar to the Indian Hindu/budist phylosophy) where spiritual advancment and wisdom are prised over imediat practicality. Additionaly the Itani pratice martial arts as a means of achieving spiritual advancment.
Whereas the Serco have a more Western phylosophy, prising sceintific and technologicle advancment over spiritual advancment.
although parallels from Japan, China, Europ, and the americas can be drawn for both the Itani and Serco, i think the Serco are best paralleled by western philosophy (a combination of European, and Native American, best describes it to me), and the Itani are best paralleled by eastern philosophy (a combination of Indian, and Japaniese, best describes it in my opinion).
Cunjo,
yea, i din't mean to inply you plajerised the designe, i actulay like the ensignia you perposed. I think it's the one tall point in the center with the smaller points to either side (especialy the one with the curved points).
toshiro,
have you concidered something like Da'vinchi's Vitruvian Man (perhaps a Vitruvian Woman if you want to maintain the allusion to Lady Serco) with some of the limbs being mechanicle in sort of a Vitruvian Cyborg manner.
I guess my point is neither war, nor the advance of technology is a strictly western perspective. I do not believe that you can break down the itani and the serco as "eastern and western"
If one looks at the serco as merely brutish creatures that value technology above all else, I don't think you'll get very far. Why?
because if one looks at the backstory, one realizes that the serco did not continue the pursuit of all forms of technology, merely those that made their work easier. Battle is the proving ground for the serco (in the backstory, though the backstory says very little about sercan life).
This being the case, I think it is almost impossible to imagine a
sercan culture that has been built around battle, for close to a thousand years, NOT developing Bushido-like rules.
Eastern philosophy is far too broad a moniker to apply to any of these cultures. The fact is that Hindu/Buddhist/Taoist/Shintoist/Animist/etc...
(With Mahayana/Zen/Tibetan Buddhism almost religions in themselves)
are as different from eachother as they are from the Judeo-Christian religions of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.
There are times when they mix, but I see the itani and serco as having much better analogs in Asian cultures, than they do with american culture.
Lets face it, Americans (and I am one), don't really like to fight, we like to work, and we like to relax.
If anything, I think that the Americans are best described by the UIT, not the serco.
The fact that America has been involved in many of the wars of recent era, does not mean that they are similar to all other warlike peoples.
We must consider that eastern philosophies and technology are not contradictory, and that the appearance of these philosophies as so, comes from an era where (through a number of interesting events) they were forced into a backseat.
Traditionally, these cultures have been at the height of advancement.
If one looks at the serco as merely brutish creatures that value technology above all else, I don't think you'll get very far. Why?
because if one looks at the backstory, one realizes that the serco did not continue the pursuit of all forms of technology, merely those that made their work easier. Battle is the proving ground for the serco (in the backstory, though the backstory says very little about sercan life).
This being the case, I think it is almost impossible to imagine a
sercan culture that has been built around battle, for close to a thousand years, NOT developing Bushido-like rules.
Eastern philosophy is far too broad a moniker to apply to any of these cultures. The fact is that Hindu/Buddhist/Taoist/Shintoist/Animist/etc...
(With Mahayana/Zen/Tibetan Buddhism almost religions in themselves)
are as different from eachother as they are from the Judeo-Christian religions of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism.
There are times when they mix, but I see the itani and serco as having much better analogs in Asian cultures, than they do with american culture.
Lets face it, Americans (and I am one), don't really like to fight, we like to work, and we like to relax.
If anything, I think that the Americans are best described by the UIT, not the serco.
The fact that America has been involved in many of the wars of recent era, does not mean that they are similar to all other warlike peoples.
We must consider that eastern philosophies and technology are not contradictory, and that the appearance of these philosophies as so, comes from an era where (through a number of interesting events) they were forced into a backseat.
Traditionally, these cultures have been at the height of advancement.
If we're making Comparisons, here's my ideas:
1) UIT = Dutch East India Company of the 1600's
2) Order of Akan = Al Qaeda & Islamist philosophies (note Islamist ≠ Islamic, look it up)
3) Itani = the rest of moderate modern-day Islam, essentially peace-loving but trying not to let the Akanese define them, yet not really separating themselves from them, either.
4) Serco = Feudal Japan of say the 1700's (I'm tempted to say Ghengis Khan & the Mongols, except the Serco haven't swept thru Itani territory much.)
1) UIT = Dutch East India Company of the 1600's
2) Order of Akan = Al Qaeda & Islamist philosophies (note Islamist ≠ Islamic, look it up)
3) Itani = the rest of moderate modern-day Islam, essentially peace-loving but trying not to let the Akanese define them, yet not really separating themselves from them, either.
4) Serco = Feudal Japan of say the 1700's (I'm tempted to say Ghengis Khan & the Mongols, except the Serco haven't swept thru Itani territory much.)
"If one looks at the serco as merely brutish creatures that value technology above all else, I don't think you'll get very far. Why?
because if one looks at the backstory, one realizes that the serco did not continue the pursuit of all forms of technology, merely those that made their work easier. Battle is the proving ground for the serco (in the backstory, though the backstory says very little about sercan life)."
ok, i never said that the serco persue technology forsaking all esle. i said they persue technology as the solution to their problems rather than spiritual development.
ie, if a serco has a headake, he would be given a painkiller and/or have an implant adjusted, if an Itani had a headacke he's drink some herbal tea, and/or medatate and then if that didn't work he may take the painkiller.
"f anything, I think that the Americans are best described by the UIT, not the serco.
The fact that America has been involved in many of the wars of recent era, does not mean that they are similar to all other warlike peoples. "
ok, i never meant to include the Uninted States in my statment about western culture. i was refering to European culture and Native American culturs.
for example The Irocoy (sp?) used Lacorss as a training exercise for war, and the original intent was to actualy play the game rather than fight a war (although i don't know that that practice ever took off). Also the jousting matches in midevial Europ served a similar perpus. both of these resemple the Serco's tournament of champians better than anything i've heard of from the eastern culturs.
Furthermore, European knights had a code of honor called chivelry (sp?). while not exactly like bushido, it is a similar concept.
while not everything about the Serco is wester, and not everything about the Itani is Eastern, i do think the general tendacys of each nation do fit the division i have made.
because if one looks at the backstory, one realizes that the serco did not continue the pursuit of all forms of technology, merely those that made their work easier. Battle is the proving ground for the serco (in the backstory, though the backstory says very little about sercan life)."
ok, i never said that the serco persue technology forsaking all esle. i said they persue technology as the solution to their problems rather than spiritual development.
ie, if a serco has a headake, he would be given a painkiller and/or have an implant adjusted, if an Itani had a headacke he's drink some herbal tea, and/or medatate and then if that didn't work he may take the painkiller.
"f anything, I think that the Americans are best described by the UIT, not the serco.
The fact that America has been involved in many of the wars of recent era, does not mean that they are similar to all other warlike peoples. "
ok, i never meant to include the Uninted States in my statment about western culture. i was refering to European culture and Native American culturs.
for example The Irocoy (sp?) used Lacorss as a training exercise for war, and the original intent was to actualy play the game rather than fight a war (although i don't know that that practice ever took off). Also the jousting matches in midevial Europ served a similar perpus. both of these resemple the Serco's tournament of champians better than anything i've heard of from the eastern culturs.
Furthermore, European knights had a code of honor called chivelry (sp?). while not exactly like bushido, it is a similar concept.
while not everything about the Serco is wester, and not everything about the Itani is Eastern, i do think the general tendacys of each nation do fit the division i have made.
I'd just like to quickly point out that "Sercan" is not a word. Serco is both singular and plural, and is also used in the form of "Serco <noun>."
This is also the case for the Itani.
This is also the case for the Itani.
Hmm... I find 'sercan' as an adjective perfectly acceptable, if a bit forced.
As for eastern/western and taoism/buddhism et cetera:
I think it's not easy to apply such stereotypes here (not that I know much about them), instead, we'd have to really look at the people and their culture (Serco, Itani and UIT), and then give them something new.
Now I know you're going to say that everything's been done already. True. But even if you let yourself be influenced, it's better than to just apply an already laden grup of people or idea.
And to argue against and for some things:
The UIT actually do seem like the (new) american population, they were forced to leave their home due to the powers that be. They could also be compared to ancient greece with their poleis, self-sufficient (more or less) city-states that engage in trade and war.
The Itani and their exodus somewhat remind me of Noah's story, probably because the ship was actually called the Ark. That would make them rather fit into the christian ideology/mythology, don't you think?
Whereas the Serco... well.
I'm biased anyway in favor of them, so indulge me :).
In my opinion, the Serco history resembles the Japanese's in a few crucial points.
As has been mentioned, they are warlike. They believe in the way of the warrior, that it is just to act as if every moment in time should be lived in knowledge that death might come in the next.
But they are more than that. Like the Japanese, they were hard-pressed to make do with the planet they were given, to use terraforming (just as the Japanese used geoforming to win land from the sea. I forget the japanese expression for 'creating land', it ha something to do with death, iirc), which shows a great force of will, to shape the world to fit their needs. This has both positive and negative aspects, I won't delve into them here.
As for the Serco being close to feudal Japan... I don't know, that'd require a lot more knowledge about feudal Japan than I have. So far, that knowledge is limited to reading books and comics about it (not to mention movies and anime, but those don't count). I think we can safely assume that a very similar social structure is in place, or at least that's what it seems like.
As for eastern/western and taoism/buddhism et cetera:
I think it's not easy to apply such stereotypes here (not that I know much about them), instead, we'd have to really look at the people and their culture (Serco, Itani and UIT), and then give them something new.
Now I know you're going to say that everything's been done already. True. But even if you let yourself be influenced, it's better than to just apply an already laden grup of people or idea.
And to argue against and for some things:
The UIT actually do seem like the (new) american population, they were forced to leave their home due to the powers that be. They could also be compared to ancient greece with their poleis, self-sufficient (more or less) city-states that engage in trade and war.
The Itani and their exodus somewhat remind me of Noah's story, probably because the ship was actually called the Ark. That would make them rather fit into the christian ideology/mythology, don't you think?
Whereas the Serco... well.
I'm biased anyway in favor of them, so indulge me :).
In my opinion, the Serco history resembles the Japanese's in a few crucial points.
As has been mentioned, they are warlike. They believe in the way of the warrior, that it is just to act as if every moment in time should be lived in knowledge that death might come in the next.
But they are more than that. Like the Japanese, they were hard-pressed to make do with the planet they were given, to use terraforming (just as the Japanese used geoforming to win land from the sea. I forget the japanese expression for 'creating land', it ha something to do with death, iirc), which shows a great force of will, to shape the world to fit their needs. This has both positive and negative aspects, I won't delve into them here.
As for the Serco being close to feudal Japan... I don't know, that'd require a lot more knowledge about feudal Japan than I have. So far, that knowledge is limited to reading books and comics about it (not to mention movies and anime, but those don't count). I think we can safely assume that a very similar social structure is in place, or at least that's what it seems like.
the same similaritys apply between the Serco and Fuedal Europ.
and by the way this all started because i said the serco starburst on a white background was too much like the japaniese flag for my liking.
and by the way this all started because i said the serco starburst on a white background was too much like the japaniese flag for my liking.
The Serco starburst is nice in that it looks brooding and dangerous, if you don't like the white field put it on black and it looks even more ominous.
lol, your UIT flag looks like the Romanian flag Lord Q :D
yea, i actualy refrenced the multitude of tri color flags that exist today as my ionspiration, the fact that there is a curent flag with exactly that combination, while coincedental was not unexpected.
[BUMP]
These are some Union symbols I am fiddling with, for Joyce's scrapbook. I was trying to go with iconic simplicity. The field of gold represents not only our color but also Sol, which is more apparent in the star-shaped fields. The eight-pointed black stars are the systems of the union, while the five-pointed stars the nine corps. TPG is always at the top or the center of a group of three, representing its prominence. The Union Constellation, BTW, looks A LOT like the Canis constellation (Orion's dog).
I like how these four look, but everything (field, stars, letters) could be mixed for different logos, so please, give me suggestions for other combinations.
These are some Union symbols I am fiddling with, for Joyce's scrapbook. I was trying to go with iconic simplicity. The field of gold represents not only our color but also Sol, which is more apparent in the star-shaped fields. The eight-pointed black stars are the systems of the union, while the five-pointed stars the nine corps. TPG is always at the top or the center of a group of three, representing its prominence. The Union Constellation, BTW, looks A LOT like the Canis constellation (Orion's dog).
I like how these four look, but everything (field, stars, letters) could be mixed for different logos, so please, give me suggestions for other combinations.
i like the one on the lower right hand corner
Indeed. That one's really nice. I'd go with more five-pointed stars for the exterior symbols, as they have more modern significance (flags & such) than more-pointed stars, whose meanings are usually religious.
Also, when considering the symbology of the UIT flag, I'd always added another star/point/hand to represent Corvus.
I'd put forth that they were far more involved with the founding of the UIT than modern history would presume, acting as a militia, or even a military of sorts. It was their raids on Serco convoys that allowed the infant Union to succeed.
When the UIT looked to open trade with the Serco, they had to officially shun Corvus. Of course, they couldn't just shove a good portion of their population out, so they trade with them on an unofficial basis while maintaining that they're "pirates". The Vulturius and other ships exclusive to Corvus are simply combat-oriented variations on existing UIT designs developed under license from (or perhaps even directly by) the original corporation, and not stolen as official record would have it.
Also, when considering the symbology of the UIT flag, I'd always added another star/point/hand to represent Corvus.
I'd put forth that they were far more involved with the founding of the UIT than modern history would presume, acting as a militia, or even a military of sorts. It was their raids on Serco convoys that allowed the infant Union to succeed.
When the UIT looked to open trade with the Serco, they had to officially shun Corvus. Of course, they couldn't just shove a good portion of their population out, so they trade with them on an unofficial basis while maintaining that they're "pirates". The Vulturius and other ships exclusive to Corvus are simply combat-oriented variations on existing UIT designs developed under license from (or perhaps even directly by) the original corporation, and not stolen as official record would have it.
I have no idea where you're getting that bit about Corvus, so I can't use it. Still, if the Union officially shuns Corvus, why, right there is the reason to cut him out of all officials logos and flags.
And as for "religious symbols", there is no sign of religion anywhere within VO, and religion has a way to butt heads with corporate enterprise, so I've always assumed the Union is a 100% secular society. Thus, all the stars are available for whatever. This is the 45th century, after all, not the 21st.
Most people outside the forums also seem to prefer that lower-right corner logo but... doesn't it kinda look like some kind of brand on a box of corn flakes, soap or instant oats?
And as for "religious symbols", there is no sign of religion anywhere within VO, and religion has a way to butt heads with corporate enterprise, so I've always assumed the Union is a 100% secular society. Thus, all the stars are available for whatever. This is the 45th century, after all, not the 21st.
Most people outside the forums also seem to prefer that lower-right corner logo but... doesn't it kinda look like some kind of brand on a box of corn flakes, soap or instant oats?
The UIT sell soap.
It works.
It works.
It isn't that they're shunned completely, they just have to give enough of an impression of hating them to satisfy the Serco and keep trade moving. Taking their star off the flag would be an actual affront to Corvus' pride, and would harm corporate relations between the factions, something the council can't risk.
As to where I'm getting this, I'm not getting it from anywhere official, but then, neither are you. I justify it like so: nearly nothing exists history-wise for the UIT after they separate from the Serco, so we might as well fill in our own history of the various factions. If it's good enough, maybe we'll catch Incarnate's eye.
As to where I'm getting this, I'm not getting it from anywhere official, but then, neither are you. I justify it like so: nearly nothing exists history-wise for the UIT after they separate from the Serco, so we might as well fill in our own history of the various factions. If it's good enough, maybe we'll catch Incarnate's eye.
Well, if you're talking about my UIT version of history then yeah, I'm just adlibing, and in fact I may take your idea on COrvus and put the ole Jex spin on it. For these icons, however, I'm using only "canonical" material, and if you go to the Dev Wiki you'll see Corvus is treated apart from the Union, so I'm going with that.
i think the top right shape with the lettering from the bottom right would be the best.
and this is definately better than the color bands i perposed.
and this is definately better than the color bands i perposed.