I summed up my thoughts on why we should KOS those traders who want to be able to purchase survival when it does matter to them, but ignore our demands when they don't care if they die: Traders must take the lumps with the good, as do pirates, when it comes to paying: will you pay a bit more than you'd like for the Taur full of precious metals? Yes. Will you get charged less than full value on the XC full of 10 million credits worth of group radar extenders? Yes. It evens out.

However, now we have the ability to ID exactly what our targets are carrying, and consequently what they're worth if looted/how much they have tied up in the cargo run. So, should we alter our approach to more of an exacting science? Fee=X% * (((sale value of cargo in current sector + purchase cost of cargo)/2) + cost of ship), perhaps?

Obviously, there's room for debate about an appropriate %, and whether we should aim for some other balance between the instant sale value of and the capital investment in the cargo besides my simple averaging shown above. And there are the dual problems of (1) needing to know about the likely purchase and sale price of the cargo and (2) having to conduct all this analysis while the trader is, probably, running for safety.

But in an effort to move away from the current environment of "Traders never pay, Pirates always kill 'n loot," I wonder if we can't take advantage of the cargo scanner to arrive at a fixed fee calculation widely accepted by both traders and pirates alike. That way, on the relatively rare occasions that a trader runs into a pirate, they can stop, briefly haggle over what the best values to plug in are, and then carry on.

Obviously, one payment would no longer buy immunity for any duration of time unless the percent figure is set fairly high. And anyone caught with a cargo scanner blocker will be summarily executed.

I think this is where a plugin or a /paypirate command comes in. If we start calculating based on the cargo and ship value held, we should charge just under or at the actual profit for that cargo assuming a local destination. This should present a good value for the trader: They lose most of their profit on that run, but they don't lose the additional cost of their ship and cargo.

I feel it's important to point out, however, that the current rash of angry n00b traders calling everyone in sight a griefer makes me a lot less likely to offer anyone a chance, regardless of your cargo. If I scan you and you have 10 million in holodisks and an attitude, you are going to die and I'll take everything instead of the 200k or so of your profits.

[W]e should charge just under or at the actual profit for that cargo assuming a local destination . . . [i.e.] If I scan you and you have 10 million in holodisks . . . I'll take . . . the 200k or so of your profits.

I dunno. Is less than 1/50 of what we could otherwise be making really fair?

Another issue: if I catch someone in Dau with an XC full of group radar extenders, the 10 million credit cargo would actually have no profit in that sector. But it would sell for 9.5 million in Dau, and it's being carried in a 150k credit ship. Surely I should be paid some significant percentage of that value not to kill the trader and make 9.5 million in pure profit.

Basically, I feel like I already get shafted like this when bonus time rolls around at work. Here in VO, I'd like a bigger slice of the pie I'm helping to bake (yes, dear traders, I am helping -- by not killing you).

Another angle on this is the fact that with the current economy, once you sell that XC load that route is pretty much done for the day. So it might actually be in a trader's best interests to let you kill them locally, and then make the full profit at some other time when you're not around, rather than paying out a sizable portion of their anticipated profit which will then be entirely done.

It's been quite some time since I've traded, largely due to the fact that now you have to put in an hour's work to get a one-time payout that you could as easily get in 5 minutes on an escort, but it seems to me that if you're going to put in that hour of work, you're not going to want to pay a high percentage of that payout to a pirate, because then you have to start the search for a route all over again. If the rats are asking something in the range of a few hundred k, that's not a big hit, but if they're asking half your earnings, it's no longer in your interests to go through with it. This assumes that the profit exceeds the initial capital required to purchase the goods by enough to make purchasing them a couple times still worth your while.

The bottom line is, back when stockpiling and selling was the name of the game, an idea like this would have had great merit. If you charge a one-time-per-day fee of 50% of a single load, the trader would have a great incentive to pay, because they can make dozens more trips to far outstrip the cost of passage, and it would be even easier with the benign eye of the pirates turned from them. Now you can't make dozens more trips, you can make maybe one or two more if you're lucky. I would recommend holding off on increasing your prices to match until the economy is in a more sane configuration.

Your points are both valid. Personally, I'm more likely to kill an XC when I see it rather than risk it's escape. I hail, but if I don't see money in my account in 5 seconds, I kill the thing, because the chances it has a valuable cargo are usually pretty good. I may also occasionally decided to kill a trader who claims he intends to pay because he's too eager, and I know I can make more by killing it. It's good business to be unpredictable. It increases the chances I'll get paid (and ask any CHRN, we're getting paid more often now than ever before) all around, no matter how it turns out.

sounds like it is time for you rats to make a plugin to work with the scannner and an average sale value to instanly display the true worth of your target....

Sounds like a lot of work, and the way I do things now is working fine. I the scanner and once the NPC bugs are worked out it will be immensely helpful, but against real player targets psychology wins over technology. like

Good thread Dr. Lecter.

As of the cargo evaluation, maybe VO would provide the price tag directly. Like the cargo list is somehow linked to sector prices and inform us about the best ones, CS (cargo scanner) would/should do the same.

CS is here to motivate pirates not to shoot the cargo ship just to see what is inside. Step two, CS should motivate pirates not to shoot the cargo ship just to know what it is worth.

I do not actually have any valuable idea about the formula.

In NYC, the taxi screens provide totals at various tip %s. Perhaps the cargo scanner could do likewise. User definable option as to y/n display, how many values, for which %s.

The main issue with figuring out an actual percent of sale cost is you need to know what the best sell cost is... something you are unlikely to know unless you keep a database. You could always rely on the jettison menu, but that's only for in-system stations that you've visited recently... which isn't a whole lot of information.

Actually, jettison is for best price in current system, period. No visitation required. And since pirates tend to not haul loot more than a single jump, it's quite enough information.

Well then, that'd work. So basically, you want the jettison menu incorporated into the cargo scanner... that seems completely reasonable (and probably not that hard to write).

Maybe it does not even need a menu. Cargo value would be just shown in brackets or something. Values or total value should be accessible from LUA then. This will make it possible to write some hail plugin.

Values -> LUA script -> the formula -> hail message with reasonable ransom. Computed, rounded, scented, served.

Out of curiosity, why are a bunch of traders trying to tell us how to write our plugins? We have the matter quite under control, thank you :p

Because we can. :P

Seriously though, making it a percentage of the profit would make piracy unprofitable. Figure a standard moth on a non enhanced run is going to make roughly 70,000cr for a good run, which are not always there. An xc does a bit better, maybe around 120,000cr If you asked 50% you'd be getting 35,000-60,000cr against a trader that has a solid but not necessarily great trade.

Also, this does not take into account the level of investment risk the trader has involved. The same range of profit can be made off of investments from as little as 30,000cr or so up to a million. Hence, I would suggest basing the percentage off of the sell price

This imo is one key area where the economy fails. I can make far more off of cheap stuff like consumer electronics or civilian textiles - roughly 300-400cr than I can off most more expensive items. Heck, even silksteel and corrosive chem do great if you know where to sell.

Regardless, the ransom should be high enough to mean something to the trader but not so high that death is a reasonable option. I don't expect some will choose to pay regardless, but the standard should be there. The ransom should also not be so low as to be a pointless exercise to the pirate.

Edit: Also as pointed out, because of the effect eliminating bulk trading has had, traders are no longer tied to one area, in fact I personally find it more enjoyable and profitable to wander around all of VO in search of trades. One of the problems that I have mentioned elsewhere is that many systems / regions of not only Grey, but also nation space have too many like stations. Honestly, is there really a reason Odia needs 4 barracks??? My point is, if I choose not to pay, I have lost a ship and a bit of cargo which I can usually make up in a few trades else where. I have no vested interest in securing safety from pirates other than participating in the role play. (which not enough people do imo) This is another failing of the economy imo.

As to the enhanced routes, your talking about a half hour or so trip each way. Since there is no gravy return trade, xplode is usually the most cost effective / time. However, if Azek suddenly got a craving for chocolate and Sedina for some odd reason suddenly discovered it had a critical shortage of hull plates with a fairly low drop off, you might see a bit more use of the so called 'enhanced route' concept.

Fluffy out :P

For the record, I once conducted an experiment where I decreased my passing fees by an order of magnitude for a week, to determine if it had any effect on the percentage of traders who would pay ransom. Long story short, it didn't. People are just as willing to yell "I'LL NEVER PAY U PIRATE" and summarily blow up over 10k as they are over 100k.

I have, to this point, asked fees based on my expected profit from popping a trader and selling the cargo, adjusted for the time involved in grabbing a moth to haul it. I see no reason not to continue doing just that; I will simply have a more accurate method of determining my potential profits.

"Out of curiosity, why are a bunch of traders trying to tell us how to write our plugins?"

Don't you consider me a trader? :) I do not know how to buy some cargo. I used to sell it only.

"People are just as willing to yell "I'LL NEVER PAY U PIRATE" and summarily blow up over 10k as they are over 100k."

Not much RP but sad truth.

I very rarely see a non-pirate do anything remotely approximating role-play in this game, unfortunately.

Getting off-topic there, ladron. For the sake of argument, why cannot a pirate accept that a player just does not pay? Especially if the player is not even carrying cargo...

As for the scanner/profit conundrum: If I were a pirate, I would support Impavid's MO, although I would hail less often and use that to spice up the dreary routine, because I perceive a pirate to be more consistent in his attitude if he lets a trader go once in a while and kills them regularly than if he lets them go regularly, but kills them once in a while.

Forget the profit.

I think passing fee should be proportion of possible loss in case of fighting and dying. I mean ship+cargo purchase price * X%.

More straightforward and easy.

Using cargo scanner to approximate right price is essential. Or to trust traders word about it.

And maybe mentioning scanning instead of shooting/killing in hail message gives good impression :)