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Why would I lie about this Bojan?, Your not me, you don't understand anyone else's feelings on "the other side of the screen".
"Guide or dev intervention in cases of reported harassment"
In cases of harassment, yes. Like I said, if somebody is repeatedly abusing an individual, then that is crossing the line. Same goes for making threats, cheating, etc. I'm not arguing about those things. I'm arguing about moderators trying to make people be nice. If I want to tell somebody that I think they're a worthless pile of filth, that is my right. If that means people don't want to associate with me, that is my penalty.
And if somebody doesn't care that nobody likes them, so what? If they cross the line into harassment, then the devs/guides can deal with them. Otherwise, big deal.
In cases of harassment, yes. Like I said, if somebody is repeatedly abusing an individual, then that is crossing the line. Same goes for making threats, cheating, etc. I'm not arguing about those things. I'm arguing about moderators trying to make people be nice. If I want to tell somebody that I think they're a worthless pile of filth, that is my right. If that means people don't want to associate with me, that is my penalty.
And if somebody doesn't care that nobody likes them, so what? If they cross the line into harassment, then the devs/guides can deal with them. Otherwise, big deal.
I'm going to kill everyone in this thread!
Holy shit Greenwall, how can you not like Genka? One of the best trolls ever!
/me steps out of thread before CS comes back with the chainsaw...
/me steps out of thread before CS comes back with the chainsaw...
Mecha Toranus is a half breed tani/serco. I am going to kill mecha.
Threatening or insulting an in game character, is part of the game. Yes, I understand that many players can not separate character from player, but the point of the game, is to play the game, and the game affords great liberty in doing exactly that.
Insulting or threatening people, in real life, is not part of playing the game. It does not add anything to the game. It is at best insignificant, and at worst, significantly negative to the game.
I am Roda Slane. I have had entire web sites created and dedicated to insulting me. I have heard every form of "IRL" insult and threat. But it is ok, for me, because I am Roda Slane, and I am immune to it. But me being immune to it, does not make other players immune to it, even if they are not the target.
The very mention of "IRL", in any negative context, should be considered grounds for a guide mute, and/or just about any other punitive action that the guides / devs decide.
Negative "IRL" has no place in an online game, and should not be afforded any tolerance.
Threatening or insulting an in game character, is part of the game. Yes, I understand that many players can not separate character from player, but the point of the game, is to play the game, and the game affords great liberty in doing exactly that.
Insulting or threatening people, in real life, is not part of playing the game. It does not add anything to the game. It is at best insignificant, and at worst, significantly negative to the game.
I am Roda Slane. I have had entire web sites created and dedicated to insulting me. I have heard every form of "IRL" insult and threat. But it is ok, for me, because I am Roda Slane, and I am immune to it. But me being immune to it, does not make other players immune to it, even if they are not the target.
The very mention of "IRL", in any negative context, should be considered grounds for a guide mute, and/or just about any other punitive action that the guides / devs decide.
Negative "IRL" has no place in an online game, and should not be afforded any tolerance.
"The Axiom" demonstrates childish behavior ingame and on the forums.
"The Axion" is a troll.
It is not very relevant if I am speaking of the "The Axiom" as the character, or the player, if both hold true.
Both statements are relevant to the people that play the game, and can thus, in some context, be considered relevant to playing the game.
They are also both statements of observation, while playing the game. I doubt I am alone in these observations. I make no assumptions about "The Axiom", "IRL", outside the scope of the game.
"The Axiom" has a thin skin. He likes to dish it out, but he can't take it. I do not wish anyone to think that I am defending such immature behavior.
Saying: "I could care less if Axiom kills himself, IRL", has no bearing on the game. It is an opinion that simply does not need to be expressed in VO. It serves absolutely no positive purpose in the context of VO. It is not defensible, in the context of playing VO.
All of "Axioms" weakness and faults do not change the basic premise, that if it adds nothing to VO, then it probably should not be in VO.
Play VO, or log off.
"The Axion" is a troll.
It is not very relevant if I am speaking of the "The Axiom" as the character, or the player, if both hold true.
Both statements are relevant to the people that play the game, and can thus, in some context, be considered relevant to playing the game.
They are also both statements of observation, while playing the game. I doubt I am alone in these observations. I make no assumptions about "The Axiom", "IRL", outside the scope of the game.
"The Axiom" has a thin skin. He likes to dish it out, but he can't take it. I do not wish anyone to think that I am defending such immature behavior.
Saying: "I could care less if Axiom kills himself, IRL", has no bearing on the game. It is an opinion that simply does not need to be expressed in VO. It serves absolutely no positive purpose in the context of VO. It is not defensible, in the context of playing VO.
All of "Axioms" weakness and faults do not change the basic premise, that if it adds nothing to VO, then it probably should not be in VO.
Play VO, or log off.
Since therapist was mentioned, I feel compelled to point out therapist is only one space away from the rapist.
@Roda Slane
You don't have a thin skin so how could you possibly understand what another player is going through on the other side of the screen, everyone here plays for the enjoyment of space combat simulation and or tradeship, Your not me. You are you and I say to you this, if we play to enjoy ourselves and communicate in the chat does that make it ok for a player to make comments of killing one's self and not caring about it In Real Life? I don't think so, furthermore I am not a troll, I am a very happy and fragile player that loves talking in the chat, if rude players will be trolling me I will get sad. Roda you couldn't possibly understand.
You don't have a thin skin so how could you possibly understand what another player is going through on the other side of the screen, everyone here plays for the enjoyment of space combat simulation and or tradeship, Your not me. You are you and I say to you this, if we play to enjoy ourselves and communicate in the chat does that make it ok for a player to make comments of killing one's self and not caring about it In Real Life? I don't think so, furthermore I am not a troll, I am a very happy and fragile player that loves talking in the chat, if rude players will be trolling me I will get sad. Roda you couldn't possibly understand.
Sounds to me like Tripod is saying "I am fragile, so you should play nice with me, but you're not, so I can say what I like because "you could never understand", but I can".
You have no data on what another person understands. Play by the rules you expect others to play by, and if you don't like it, find a different game.
You have no data on what another person understands. Play by the rules you expect others to play by, and if you don't like it, find a different game.
"skv sucks 8====D" - quote from tripod earlier. Dunno how logs work or i would dig it up. No context afaik, just stirring shit.
Everyone knows he's a troll in game, and this topic is just an extension of that. /thread
Everyone knows he's a troll in game, and this topic is just an extension of that. /thread
Axiom is a troll...
...no getting around that.
I am also a troll, but I don't fucking make threads about someone insulting me (in fact, I'm used to it)
Axiom, are you depressed? If you are, don't cut/kill yourself, trust me. It will get better soon.
Note: I've cut myself multiple times already and I passed out from blood loss.
Note #2: here's a little something:
...no getting around that.
I am also a troll, but I don't fucking make threads about someone insulting me (in fact, I'm used to it)
Axiom, are you depressed? If you are, don't cut/kill yourself, trust me. It will get better soon.
Note: I've cut myself multiple times already and I passed out from blood loss.
Note #2: here's a little something:
I'm about 99.5% certain that Axiom is a drunk 30 year old guy laughing his ass off at you guys.
Ummm I'm 16 and I'm usually very happy as I said before skv insults me so I can insult them back, no one gets hurt feelings but when the whole community turns on me..Well you'll understand.
Being an asshole and saying shitty things to people is not a right in VO. It's a choice. It has risks. One of those risks is that the devs might choose to sideline you for being out of line. Another of those risks is that you might cause someone pain / anguish in real life.
The shield against moral responsibility that you sense is provided by your anonymity in game (or on the internet for that matter) is a false one. Every decision you make in life (REAL life) matters and has effects on people. I realize it's a fairly high concept for some here to understand, but you can have very satisfying vendettas and wars and fights without being mean.
Do some play VO solely to be anonymously mean? Sure. Is being able to be an asshole one of the things people find the most entertaining about VO? Sure. I'm sure the devs have earned quite a bit of money from people like that. It still doesn't mean it's right.
And before people start criticizing me for being pious, I'm not without fault on this issue either (though I do like to think my trolling in game is more humoursly deceptive than purposefully hateful -- i.e. 18/f/cali). I just don't think it's wise/good/worthwhile to be the champion of asshole rights.
The shield against moral responsibility that you sense is provided by your anonymity in game (or on the internet for that matter) is a false one. Every decision you make in life (REAL life) matters and has effects on people. I realize it's a fairly high concept for some here to understand, but you can have very satisfying vendettas and wars and fights without being mean.
Do some play VO solely to be anonymously mean? Sure. Is being able to be an asshole one of the things people find the most entertaining about VO? Sure. I'm sure the devs have earned quite a bit of money from people like that. It still doesn't mean it's right.
And before people start criticizing me for being pious, I'm not without fault on this issue either (though I do like to think my trolling in game is more humoursly deceptive than purposefully hateful -- i.e. 18/f/cali). I just don't think it's wise/good/worthwhile to be the champion of asshole rights.
You know what I've noticed? Roda and I are the only ones who have actually specified where we think the cutoff should be. Roda defines the cutoff at anything at all negative that does not pertain to characters. I define it at anything that is overtly threatening IRL, and anything that is persistent harassment (excepting in-game vendettas and what-not, obviously).
Where do you draw the line? What do you think should be the minimum level of assholery required before moderator intervention becomes appropriate?
Where do you draw the line? What do you think should be the minimum level of assholery required before moderator intervention becomes appropriate?
@Pizzasgood: Your summation of my position is not far off the mark. But please allow me to be more specific.
I believe that negative comments that are not relevant to playing VO, are not defensible. This still leaves an incredible degree of latitude. This is the same position that I took on the "/vote mute" issue, and the "personal attacks" issue. It is summed up as: "Is it relevant to playing VO." Saying that Axiom is immature, carries the implication that I am talking about Axiom's behavior, in VO. It is reasonable to assume that Axiom is every bit as immature IRL as in VO, but that is not relevant to VO, and thus does not need to be addressed in VO. I can not think of a single instance, where any negative comment in VO, should be accompanied by "IRL", or be about anything beyond the scope of the game. Saying: "I could care less if Axiom kills himself in real life", is completely outside the scope of the game. It does not need to be said in VO, and there is no defense for saying it in VO. It isn't playing VO. It is using VO to play something other than VO. When a player logs into VO, they are consenting to playing VO. Logging into VO should not imply consenting to "IRL" personal attacks, "IRL" racism, "IRL" bigotry, "IRL" sexism, etc... I should think it obvious at this point, that Axiom is not consenting to "IRL" insults.
Thank you for pointing out that too few of these post actually specified any kind of identifiable or enforceable standard.
We are on the internet. We should all have a thick skin. But the first line of defense, is what should be allowed to be said. First things first.
I believe that negative comments that are not relevant to playing VO, are not defensible. This still leaves an incredible degree of latitude. This is the same position that I took on the "/vote mute" issue, and the "personal attacks" issue. It is summed up as: "Is it relevant to playing VO." Saying that Axiom is immature, carries the implication that I am talking about Axiom's behavior, in VO. It is reasonable to assume that Axiom is every bit as immature IRL as in VO, but that is not relevant to VO, and thus does not need to be addressed in VO. I can not think of a single instance, where any negative comment in VO, should be accompanied by "IRL", or be about anything beyond the scope of the game. Saying: "I could care less if Axiom kills himself in real life", is completely outside the scope of the game. It does not need to be said in VO, and there is no defense for saying it in VO. It isn't playing VO. It is using VO to play something other than VO. When a player logs into VO, they are consenting to playing VO. Logging into VO should not imply consenting to "IRL" personal attacks, "IRL" racism, "IRL" bigotry, "IRL" sexism, etc... I should think it obvious at this point, that Axiom is not consenting to "IRL" insults.
Thank you for pointing out that too few of these post actually specified any kind of identifiable or enforceable standard.
We are on the internet. We should all have a thick skin. But the first line of defense, is what should be allowed to be said. First things first.
I generally agree with Roda. Public in game chat should either be role play or game related. Most of what I've seen over the years has been ass hattery under the facade of role play. There have been a handful of very good role players in the game over the years, but they are the exception.
Restricting public chat to game discussion and role play imo would create a more immersive environment that may lead to a higher player retention. I haven't been immersed in this game since around the time the devs fixed the trade price bug years ago- so that was pretty early on in my time here.
Non public chat venues such as group, guild, pm or Lua facilitated could still accommodate people who want to discuss other things.
This of course will never happen.
That said, I have no sympathy for the thin skinned. Nor do I care if they get hurt feelings and do themselves harm. If someone has been specifically targeting and abusing them then there are laws to hold that person accountable. The politically correct anti bullying campaign that's been popular these last few years has things backwards in my opinion. Kids should be being taught how do deal with harassment and to set their own self worth. All this activity is doing is coddling people and revering victim hood and has about as much chance of success as the 'Teach men not to rape.' campaign. Most of the population is enlightened enough and has enough empathy to respect the other person and not wish or do them any harm. However, we are still animals with built in primal drives such as position in the social hierarchy and reproductive drives that provide strategies that don't necessarily facilitate a civil society.
We shouldn't be putting a shield between people and conflict nor should we be be telling women that they should carry a pamphlet about consent with them in case they find themselves in a dangerous situation with a man.
I don't support gun ownership because I fear the government or even because I fear being robbed. I support gun ownership because I fear an over pacification of the population because there are always barbarians at the gates- whether those gates are internal or external. There needs to be a balance between civility and our natural aggression. I'm not saying that society can't be improved, only that I think that improving it at the expense of losing our collective backbone is a mistake.
Restricting public chat to game discussion and role play imo would create a more immersive environment that may lead to a higher player retention. I haven't been immersed in this game since around the time the devs fixed the trade price bug years ago- so that was pretty early on in my time here.
Non public chat venues such as group, guild, pm or Lua facilitated could still accommodate people who want to discuss other things.
This of course will never happen.
That said, I have no sympathy for the thin skinned. Nor do I care if they get hurt feelings and do themselves harm. If someone has been specifically targeting and abusing them then there are laws to hold that person accountable. The politically correct anti bullying campaign that's been popular these last few years has things backwards in my opinion. Kids should be being taught how do deal with harassment and to set their own self worth. All this activity is doing is coddling people and revering victim hood and has about as much chance of success as the 'Teach men not to rape.' campaign. Most of the population is enlightened enough and has enough empathy to respect the other person and not wish or do them any harm. However, we are still animals with built in primal drives such as position in the social hierarchy and reproductive drives that provide strategies that don't necessarily facilitate a civil society.
We shouldn't be putting a shield between people and conflict nor should we be be telling women that they should carry a pamphlet about consent with them in case they find themselves in a dangerous situation with a man.
I don't support gun ownership because I fear the government or even because I fear being robbed. I support gun ownership because I fear an over pacification of the population because there are always barbarians at the gates- whether those gates are internal or external. There needs to be a balance between civility and our natural aggression. I'm not saying that society can't be improved, only that I think that improving it at the expense of losing our collective backbone is a mistake.
I agree with Death Fluffy. Axiom/Tripod, I have a great dislike for you because of some things you said in game that were definitely not role play, and were intended to instigate annoyance and anger. Your style of play has been immature and thoughtless, and while I do recognize that this may be intentional RP, I have found your non-RP actions to be similar. VO is a community that readily accepts most role play (case in point yoda and Capt'N Blood) however your actions have been outright offensive to many. You have been seen dishing out a fair amount of verbal abuse in the game and while I don't condone bullying I feel that you making a thread about being bullied is a play for attention. Remember, the people who speak against you do so for a reason, your actions determine how you are viewed by a community more than your words. If you really love VO as much as you say you do I suggest you create a new account and change your RP and tell no-one who you were.
I agree with Roda more than Rin re: the line. But I think its important to remember that devs and guides only have so much time. There will never be hardcore policing of chat in VO -- which is what I feel like Rin is afraid of. Actually it's not clear to me what is Rin's biggest point here -- whether it's important for assholes be in the game, or whether he's afraid of over regulation.
Also, I have to fully disagree with Fluffy re: the anti-bullying campaigns (in the US). Bullying causes fragile people to kill themselves. Poor parenting encourages and/or perpetuates bullying behavior -- and it's a legit social policy to try apply pressure to those who enable bullies into correcting their behavior. Kids should ALSO be taught how to deal with harrassment, but not solely. Dismissing people's emotions is a huge one way ticket to more conflict, not less.
Also, I agree with Ason, SKV are not nationalists.
Also, I have to fully disagree with Fluffy re: the anti-bullying campaigns (in the US). Bullying causes fragile people to kill themselves. Poor parenting encourages and/or perpetuates bullying behavior -- and it's a legit social policy to try apply pressure to those who enable bullies into correcting their behavior. Kids should ALSO be taught how to deal with harrassment, but not solely. Dismissing people's emotions is a huge one way ticket to more conflict, not less.
Also, I agree with Ason, SKV are not nationalists.
I'm not suggesting that bullies be given a free pass. I do however have a problem with a policy that I see as denying basic human nature. It would be great if everyone grew up and had wonderful lives where they got along with their spouse, neighbors and coworkers.
It took me years to get rid of a member of my staff who would agitate other people until they would explode at him, after which he would play the victim card and how he was such a good guy who was trying to be helpful. He managed to get 2 people fired and a few others to leave the department by the time I was rid of him. I have sat in meetings with all of my peers and watched the boss that I respect and admire 99% of the time brow beat and occasionally humiliate one of my peers- with our HR person sitting right there! Hell, I've even had a job that was so bullying in and of itself that I lived with a constant knot in my gut and even a year after leaving still had a post traumatic response any time I heard a pager or cell phone go off. And these are just the highlights of conflict that I've personally experienced. How in the world is someone going to survive in these types of real world situations when they've been sheltered?
Certainly abuse beyond a certain level must be addressed, but I think we are doing a disservice to people by sheltering them and turning them in to victims rather than stronger individuals. It is frightening to me that you have colleges creating safe spaces and providing content warnings when the subject matter being taught or discussed might upset someone.
And much like abstinence only sex ed, this type of nonsense might suppress the obvious expression of bullying, however, it will reemerge in another more subtle form. So my opinion is that this focus doesn't build stronger people, it just makes better bullies. In my mind this does more to glorify bullying in the same way the media attention glorifies the perpetrators of a horrific crime.
Further, when you are dealing with kids, you are dealing with people who's minds are not fully developed or matured. They are still testing their social skills and learning how to interact with one another at a time when they have hormone surges making them at times completely irrational in their thinking and behavior. Now you're charging the teenage boy who copped a feel with sexual assault, the teenage girls wanting to fit in showing their fealty by snubbing or insulting the outcast and so on and so forth.
I just think there is a better approach to the issue, and that is general education from an evolutionary perspective that details the behavior patterns and why people are acting out in certain ways, but more focused on helping the bullied individual NOT by making them into a victim, but by helping them strengthen themselves by raising their self image and becoming less reliant on the fickleness of social approval.
It took me years to get rid of a member of my staff who would agitate other people until they would explode at him, after which he would play the victim card and how he was such a good guy who was trying to be helpful. He managed to get 2 people fired and a few others to leave the department by the time I was rid of him. I have sat in meetings with all of my peers and watched the boss that I respect and admire 99% of the time brow beat and occasionally humiliate one of my peers- with our HR person sitting right there! Hell, I've even had a job that was so bullying in and of itself that I lived with a constant knot in my gut and even a year after leaving still had a post traumatic response any time I heard a pager or cell phone go off. And these are just the highlights of conflict that I've personally experienced. How in the world is someone going to survive in these types of real world situations when they've been sheltered?
Certainly abuse beyond a certain level must be addressed, but I think we are doing a disservice to people by sheltering them and turning them in to victims rather than stronger individuals. It is frightening to me that you have colleges creating safe spaces and providing content warnings when the subject matter being taught or discussed might upset someone.
And much like abstinence only sex ed, this type of nonsense might suppress the obvious expression of bullying, however, it will reemerge in another more subtle form. So my opinion is that this focus doesn't build stronger people, it just makes better bullies. In my mind this does more to glorify bullying in the same way the media attention glorifies the perpetrators of a horrific crime.
Further, when you are dealing with kids, you are dealing with people who's minds are not fully developed or matured. They are still testing their social skills and learning how to interact with one another at a time when they have hormone surges making them at times completely irrational in their thinking and behavior. Now you're charging the teenage boy who copped a feel with sexual assault, the teenage girls wanting to fit in showing their fealty by snubbing or insulting the outcast and so on and so forth.
I just think there is a better approach to the issue, and that is general education from an evolutionary perspective that details the behavior patterns and why people are acting out in certain ways, but more focused on helping the bullied individual NOT by making them into a victim, but by helping them strengthen themselves by raising their self image and becoming less reliant on the fickleness of social approval.