Forums » Role Playing
Quick Question...
I'm kinda wondering, why is it not ok for me to go kill everything in sight, but it is for certian other people? RelayeR has been quite vocal about his opinion on my current actions, as well as others. I'm wondering why that voice has not been heard speaking against the people that actually do "grief" and mass-PK, all of which have been doing it far longer than I.
Icarus: Kills whatever. Doesnt really matter what/who. Simple
UncleDave: Unpredictable random killer. Kinda just kills when he feels like it, which is a good part of the time.
Arolte: Kills when he's got a distinct advantage, IE better equipment, in his homesector, etc. No discrimination to n00bs/botters/vocal nonhostiles/etc.
Nothing personal against these three, as they're just examples. I just want to know why it's ok for OTHER people to mass-PK, and even grief n00bs, but not me.
Also: I don't grief, IE kill several times in a row, I bounty-hunt. I'll notice someone with a particularly high bounty, usually over 800, and kill them. This happens a lot in homesectors, usually because lots of people bot there. I don't think I've killed anyone twice in a row since the last reset.
I really don't intend for this to be turned into a flamewar or OMG ALIN SUX LOL or whatever, I just want this question awnsered.
Icarus: Kills whatever. Doesnt really matter what/who. Simple
UncleDave: Unpredictable random killer. Kinda just kills when he feels like it, which is a good part of the time.
Arolte: Kills when he's got a distinct advantage, IE better equipment, in his homesector, etc. No discrimination to n00bs/botters/vocal nonhostiles/etc.
Nothing personal against these three, as they're just examples. I just want to know why it's ok for OTHER people to mass-PK, and even grief n00bs, but not me.
Also: I don't grief, IE kill several times in a row, I bounty-hunt. I'll notice someone with a particularly high bounty, usually over 800, and kill them. This happens a lot in homesectors, usually because lots of people bot there. I don't think I've killed anyone twice in a row since the last reset.
I really don't intend for this to be turned into a flamewar or OMG ALIN SUX LOL or whatever, I just want this question awnsered.
Well, I don't see how this can turn into anything but a flame war.
However, you're missing the point. What you did was to go into a designated newbie sector, and utilised a flaw in defbot AI to ruthlessly kill pretty much any Serco newbie you came across. Me? Despite my high score, I have comparatively few PKs compared to my score than most people in the top 10. Suggesting, perhaps, that I chew up the odd large bounty, or kill in self-defense. Also note that only one of my PKs is Neutral. So its up to you what judgements you pass from that, but I certainly don't go around shooting everybody I see.
However, you're missing the point. What you did was to go into a designated newbie sector, and utilised a flaw in defbot AI to ruthlessly kill pretty much any Serco newbie you came across. Me? Despite my high score, I have comparatively few PKs compared to my score than most people in the top 10. Suggesting, perhaps, that I chew up the odd large bounty, or kill in self-defense. Also note that only one of my PKs is Neutral. So its up to you what judgements you pass from that, but I certainly don't go around shooting everybody I see.
Okay, I'll try my best not to do anything that might trigger a flamewar here.
>I'm kinda wondering, why is it not ok for me to go kill everything in sight, but it is
>for certian other people?
Each nation has their own group of respected players. Someone's most admired PKer can be another person's "griefer." It all depends on the perspective. Duh, right? However, I think it's a lot more complicated than what most people think. With the faction system in place I'm already beginning to see some changes in the attitude of some players. So let's discuss these gameplay changes first...
Newbies, represented as a player with a combat skill level of 0 or 1, now inflict a -10 combat penalty when killed. Faction standing now has the ability to lock trigger-happy killers out of stations if they do something bad. And hopefully a new bounty system (one that actually makes sense) will be in place before the final version to help further discourage newbie hunting. So in summary, there are several factors which will help discourage the actions of griefers, despite whether anyone thinks it's okay or not. It's not perfect now, but it's certainly moving in the right direction.
Now, on to the "rules" of the game. Let me first start off with the fact that Serco and Itani are at war. I can't emphasize this enough. With the exception of newbie killing, any hostile action between players of these nations goes. It's an all-out battle between the two whether members of each nation like it or not. You're free to roleplay and temporarily ally with individual players, but the war still wages on in accordance to the faction standings. That's just the way it is.
Where things start to get a little hairy is when the Neutral Territories is involved. You have all these players in a nation that have all kinds of agendas--piracy, trading, etc. There is no definite standing with these players. But we know for sure that if you kill one at the wrong place and the wrong time, it'll hurt your standing a lot. This is where I think the true karma kicks in. If an NT player deserves to die, don't worry about it. If you killed 'em just because you felt like it, then you're screwed. Again, not perfect but that's the basic idea.
If you don't want to be involved in any wars or if you're tired of getting unexpectedly killed by a player from a warring nation, by all means give the Neutral Territories a try. If not, just be prepared to save your own ass or make enough friends to help you do just that. That's what the game boils down to with the nation standings. So don't be surprised if a Serco player randomly attacks an Itani player--It's a war, not some space picnic chatroom.
So the truth is it doesn't matter if anyone thinks you're a griefer, pirate, or whatever. If your nation standing is increasing because of your actions, you're probably playing the game as it's meant to be played. Yes, I know it's not perfect, but it's pretty clear where each nation stands right now in terms of alliances and that's the key. Roleplaying doesn't make the rules for everyone. The game does. If people have trouble accepting that, that's something they have to resolve for themselves.
If people want to roleplay an anti-whatever guild, that's perfectly fine. Even if it goes against your own nation's wishes of waging war or whatever. To give a cheesy example, think of having a peace-loving guild in Itani nation akin to an anti-war organization in America. Individual players or groups of players can have their own agendas. But just remember, there's no point in yelling at someone who is doing something for their own nation unless you intend to roleplay it through.
>Arolte: Kills when he's got a distinct advantage, IE better equipment, in his
>homesector, etc. No discrimination to n00bs/botters/vocal nonhostiles/etc.
I can't speak for the other people on that list, but I can speak for myself. For starters I offered a clean slate towards every player when I just got into 3.4. I believe I stuck by that for the longest time. I was still a pirate, of course, but I held no personal grudges towards anyone. And as a reminder I let everyone know that the character I play has a strong dislike for the Itani and INM, which is reinforced by my decision to stay on Serco. In any case I tried not to get involved too early in the game because I was learning as I went along just like everyone else.
Bounties are also a thing that attract my attention. While I don't agree with the way they're currently handled, I still think they're a part of the game that would at least give us something more to do besides bot all day. So just like you I too bounty hunt on my spare time, regardless of whether the person is trading or whatever. They should be watching their backs if they have that large number floating above their heads. With the newbie penalty system now in place, however, I am more careful towards who I kill.
Revenge is also another big factor for my character. Ever since I started playing Vendetta I was all about revenge. If you do anything to provoke me towards hostility, I'll no doubt return the favor. Sometimes it may get to the point where someone uses a cheap tactic on me and I do the same exact thing to kill them, at which point I'm being called a hypocrite. Well, it's called "eye for an eye" for a reason. Don't dish out what you can't take.
If you need examples, think back to when the NPCDEFs were broken and I got killed the moment I undocked s12 in my Atlas. You didn't think I'd just giggle and walk away, did you? Common sense dictates that this person would probably be angry and would like to have their revenge. If I were to take someone's bounty while they weren't paying attention, I'd not only expect my victim to be angry, but I'd also respect their right to seek revenge towards me. They may try and die, but if they do manage to kill me on a second go I wouldn't be cursing my head off for it. That person deserved my death.
Now... advantages with ships and weapons. There's no doubt about it that EVERYONE in Vendetta is aiming towards having some advantage. Let's take the obvious fact: nobody likes to die in the game. It's the very same reason 95% of the players fly in a Valkyrie with gauss cannons, sunflare launchers, or railguns. I try to avoid that crowd and go for something a little different, such as the Warthog with AGT and geminis. What's important for me is to have fun by using the coolest ships and weapons, not to win all the time with easy-kill configs. But still, this is still a formidable ship against most non-special ships. So the point I'm trying to make here is that we're all guilty of looking for that advantage.
So, I hope I covered everything here in regards to your questions. I'll be happy to answer anymore you may have, so long as it's not flamebait or whatever. I hope some of this information offers some insight towards in-game actions, which will hopefully help reduce some tension and offer some better understanding about why people do what they do.
>I'm kinda wondering, why is it not ok for me to go kill everything in sight, but it is
>for certian other people?
Each nation has their own group of respected players. Someone's most admired PKer can be another person's "griefer." It all depends on the perspective. Duh, right? However, I think it's a lot more complicated than what most people think. With the faction system in place I'm already beginning to see some changes in the attitude of some players. So let's discuss these gameplay changes first...
Newbies, represented as a player with a combat skill level of 0 or 1, now inflict a -10 combat penalty when killed. Faction standing now has the ability to lock trigger-happy killers out of stations if they do something bad. And hopefully a new bounty system (one that actually makes sense) will be in place before the final version to help further discourage newbie hunting. So in summary, there are several factors which will help discourage the actions of griefers, despite whether anyone thinks it's okay or not. It's not perfect now, but it's certainly moving in the right direction.
Now, on to the "rules" of the game. Let me first start off with the fact that Serco and Itani are at war. I can't emphasize this enough. With the exception of newbie killing, any hostile action between players of these nations goes. It's an all-out battle between the two whether members of each nation like it or not. You're free to roleplay and temporarily ally with individual players, but the war still wages on in accordance to the faction standings. That's just the way it is.
Where things start to get a little hairy is when the Neutral Territories is involved. You have all these players in a nation that have all kinds of agendas--piracy, trading, etc. There is no definite standing with these players. But we know for sure that if you kill one at the wrong place and the wrong time, it'll hurt your standing a lot. This is where I think the true karma kicks in. If an NT player deserves to die, don't worry about it. If you killed 'em just because you felt like it, then you're screwed. Again, not perfect but that's the basic idea.
If you don't want to be involved in any wars or if you're tired of getting unexpectedly killed by a player from a warring nation, by all means give the Neutral Territories a try. If not, just be prepared to save your own ass or make enough friends to help you do just that. That's what the game boils down to with the nation standings. So don't be surprised if a Serco player randomly attacks an Itani player--It's a war, not some space picnic chatroom.
So the truth is it doesn't matter if anyone thinks you're a griefer, pirate, or whatever. If your nation standing is increasing because of your actions, you're probably playing the game as it's meant to be played. Yes, I know it's not perfect, but it's pretty clear where each nation stands right now in terms of alliances and that's the key. Roleplaying doesn't make the rules for everyone. The game does. If people have trouble accepting that, that's something they have to resolve for themselves.
If people want to roleplay an anti-whatever guild, that's perfectly fine. Even if it goes against your own nation's wishes of waging war or whatever. To give a cheesy example, think of having a peace-loving guild in Itani nation akin to an anti-war organization in America. Individual players or groups of players can have their own agendas. But just remember, there's no point in yelling at someone who is doing something for their own nation unless you intend to roleplay it through.
>Arolte: Kills when he's got a distinct advantage, IE better equipment, in his
>homesector, etc. No discrimination to n00bs/botters/vocal nonhostiles/etc.
I can't speak for the other people on that list, but I can speak for myself. For starters I offered a clean slate towards every player when I just got into 3.4. I believe I stuck by that for the longest time. I was still a pirate, of course, but I held no personal grudges towards anyone. And as a reminder I let everyone know that the character I play has a strong dislike for the Itani and INM, which is reinforced by my decision to stay on Serco. In any case I tried not to get involved too early in the game because I was learning as I went along just like everyone else.
Bounties are also a thing that attract my attention. While I don't agree with the way they're currently handled, I still think they're a part of the game that would at least give us something more to do besides bot all day. So just like you I too bounty hunt on my spare time, regardless of whether the person is trading or whatever. They should be watching their backs if they have that large number floating above their heads. With the newbie penalty system now in place, however, I am more careful towards who I kill.
Revenge is also another big factor for my character. Ever since I started playing Vendetta I was all about revenge. If you do anything to provoke me towards hostility, I'll no doubt return the favor. Sometimes it may get to the point where someone uses a cheap tactic on me and I do the same exact thing to kill them, at which point I'm being called a hypocrite. Well, it's called "eye for an eye" for a reason. Don't dish out what you can't take.
If you need examples, think back to when the NPCDEFs were broken and I got killed the moment I undocked s12 in my Atlas. You didn't think I'd just giggle and walk away, did you? Common sense dictates that this person would probably be angry and would like to have their revenge. If I were to take someone's bounty while they weren't paying attention, I'd not only expect my victim to be angry, but I'd also respect their right to seek revenge towards me. They may try and die, but if they do manage to kill me on a second go I wouldn't be cursing my head off for it. That person deserved my death.
Now... advantages with ships and weapons. There's no doubt about it that EVERYONE in Vendetta is aiming towards having some advantage. Let's take the obvious fact: nobody likes to die in the game. It's the very same reason 95% of the players fly in a Valkyrie with gauss cannons, sunflare launchers, or railguns. I try to avoid that crowd and go for something a little different, such as the Warthog with AGT and geminis. What's important for me is to have fun by using the coolest ships and weapons, not to win all the time with easy-kill configs. But still, this is still a formidable ship against most non-special ships. So the point I'm trying to make here is that we're all guilty of looking for that advantage.
So, I hope I covered everything here in regards to your questions. I'll be happy to answer anymore you may have, so long as it's not flamebait or whatever. I hope some of this information offers some insight towards in-game actions, which will hopefully help reduce some tension and offer some better understanding about why people do what they do.
I really don't think you can pass the s12 atlas thing off to roleplaying. You got very heavily verbally abusive, with only the provocation of your death, which, according to you, was acceptable, since we're at war and all that. You really cant tell me you dont fly off the handle just as much as everyone else. I'm also very puzzled how you'll call a certian tactic/method/action skilless/cowardly, and then do the exact same thing. May be an eye for an eye, but how is stooping to someone else's level any better? It's not..
You contradict yourself a lot, it's pretty confusing. Your call though
You contradict yourself a lot, it's pretty confusing. Your call though
Could someone help me out here, I've been looking for any suggestion from the devs that Itani and Serco are at war, however I haven't seen much of anything pertaining to the matter at all, and yet the entire player base seems to think that we are at war. Did I miss an important post or something?
Well genka, how about the fact that Itanis start with Serco hate, and Serco start with Itani hate? Kind of a giveaway if you think about it...
I see the initial standings as a demonstration of the opposite; the Serco and Itani are in a state of uneasy peace. Otherwise a brand-spanking new Serco wouldn't be able to waltz into s4 for a trade mission.
If we in fact were in a state of war, I'm sure the defbots would do a bit more than fly by looking pretty.
If we in fact were in a state of war, I'm sure the defbots would do a bit more than fly by looking pretty.
AlienB, you're right in that I wasn't roleplaying at that one time. The last thing I would expect when I'd come out of a station of my own nation would be for you to camp the docks and blast me. The reason I was super pissed was because you found a way to bypass the NPCDEFs, which were heavily bugged at the time, and did something in the game that you weren't supposed to easily get away with. As UncleDave said, you took advantage of a bug that made players defenseless in their home sector and took them by surprise to inflate your score. No offense, I just don't take "exploiting" lightly. If on the other hand I had undocked from a neutral station and started flying halfway to a wormhole, only to get blasted by you, my reaction would've been a little different.
In my honest openion, alienb, it's not okay for them to grief either. It's not okay for anyone to grief. Anyway, just the openion of a trader.
OK, here comes my cut 'n dried opinion, and you may feel free to disagree with it. This is how I act:
RP:
I will KOS nearly any Itani.* Doesn't matter if it's a 0 score bus, or Alex's Valkyrie (though I may only try). Serco and Itani are at war, and the more supplies I can deny the enemy, the better. Sometimes, I will choose not to engage an Itani, merely because it would not be beneficial to me, or because I don't have the advantage in the situation. Discretion is the better part of valor.™ I am a Serco Fighter, and because Itani and Serco are at war, I play the part.
* = Unless an Itani has a good standing with Serco.
I will not attack NT, and will go to great pains to avoid shooting any NT pilot.
Special rules: I will not shoot or PK any person in Sector 17 and 18, and even if shot at, take measures to explain my position. Those that honor my position will receive special treatment (allowed in missions with me, etc.). Those who refuse to honor the s17-18 Botting Code will be KOS, usually not by me but by the pilots in my group as well. Currently the only person in this group is Sam II.
RP:
I will KOS nearly any Itani.* Doesn't matter if it's a 0 score bus, or Alex's Valkyrie (though I may only try). Serco and Itani are at war, and the more supplies I can deny the enemy, the better. Sometimes, I will choose not to engage an Itani, merely because it would not be beneficial to me, or because I don't have the advantage in the situation. Discretion is the better part of valor.™ I am a Serco Fighter, and because Itani and Serco are at war, I play the part.
* = Unless an Itani has a good standing with Serco.
I will not attack NT, and will go to great pains to avoid shooting any NT pilot.
Special rules: I will not shoot or PK any person in Sector 17 and 18, and even if shot at, take measures to explain my position. Those that honor my position will receive special treatment (allowed in missions with me, etc.). Those who refuse to honor the s17-18 Botting Code will be KOS, usually not by me but by the pilots in my group as well. Currently the only person in this group is Sam II.
Arolte: You really can't explain it that way either. You have also used broken game mechanics in the past, and continue to do so. IE intentionally lagging yourself while laying Lmines, or laying Lmines inside solid objects. How is that different? You also camp stations, just as you complained about. Sitting in a dock, firing seekers when there's no possible way anyone could kill you. This is my main problem with you, you're very, very hypocritical.
As for my "exploiting" the devs clearly made intentional changes to the NPCDEF AI code, and since it's not been fixed, I think that should tell you that yes, it was intentional. Cheap tactics? Yep, but as you and several others have said, and led by example, we're at war. No excuses.
Grandulator: I REALLY don't think you have ANY idea what the word "Grief" means. Griefing is repeatedly killing someone over and over and over, for the pure sake of your or someone else's enjoyment. Have I ever killed you more than once? No. If you continue to call me a griefer, I'll be more than glad to show you what one truly is...
As for my "exploiting" the devs clearly made intentional changes to the NPCDEF AI code, and since it's not been fixed, I think that should tell you that yes, it was intentional. Cheap tactics? Yep, but as you and several others have said, and led by example, we're at war. No excuses.
Grandulator: I REALLY don't think you have ANY idea what the word "Grief" means. Griefing is repeatedly killing someone over and over and over, for the pure sake of your or someone else's enjoyment. Have I ever killed you more than once? No. If you continue to call me a griefer, I'll be more than glad to show you what one truly is...
A point should be made at the fact that he did not really do it inside home sectors.
Piro: I did do a good amount of bounty hunting in the enemy homesectors. Never went to 2/3 though.
If there were bots in 2/3, then it would all be valid, but remember that newbs are SUPPOSED to be in 2,6 and 3,12 since those are the 'safe' sectors where newbs get the ropes, if they go outside those sectors then they are free meat.
Okay, this is starting to get a little flamey. AlienB, you're jumping to conclusions and making assumptions about things that aren't even true. Let's break this down...
>Arolte: You really can't explain it that way either. You have also used broken
>game mechanics in the past, and continue to do so. IE intentionally lagging
>yourself while laying Lmines, or laying Lmines inside solid objects.
I am shocked and appalled by this statement simply because it's downright untrue! I have NEVER caused myself to lag or lay mines while lagging intentionally. I'm currently hooked up to a local dorm connection via DHCP ethernet which I have absolutely no control over. I have no knowledge whatsoever in networking or how these connections even work to be able to exploit it. If I'm lagging that badly, I usually log myself out to avoid getting killed through delayed docking or slow load times. Sorry if you got lag mined or whatever. It was never intentional.
>How is that different? You also camp stations, just as you complained about.
I wasn't complaining about camping. I was complaining about the fact that you bypassed the NPCDEFs intentionally to kill high bounty players (including newbies). My reference to the s12 incident was to demonstrate why I attacked you afterwards--revenge.
>Sitting in a dock, firing seekers when there's no possible way anyone could kill
>you. This is my main problem with you, you're very, very hypocritical.
There's that "eye for an eye" part.
>As for my "exploiting" the devs clearly made intentional changes to the NPCDEF
>AI code, and since it's not been fixed, I think that should tell you that yes, it was
>intentional.
Misinformed again. The NPCDEFs have since been fixed with an improved detection range for KOS players. Check up on your facts, please. The bot AI was broken, and unfortunately some of it still is. In any case you knew about it and took advantage of it. Since 3.4, I've never used exploits to gain money, gain kills, or gain experience points. I also never recall entering a home sector of another nation and taking the bounty of newbie buses. If I did something cheap towards anyway, it's because they did it on me first.
>Cheap tactics? Yep, but as you and several others have said, and led by example,
>we're at war. No excuses.
I have no problem with cheap tactics. As I said, if someone pulls 'em on me I'll return the favor. It's exploiting that makes the difference and causes people to get angry, which is what you were originally wondering about in this thread. Piro makes a very valid point that until someone is absolutely prepared to defend themselves, they shouldn't leave their home sectors. You went so far as to violate that by entering the only protected area for these players.
>Arolte: You really can't explain it that way either. You have also used broken
>game mechanics in the past, and continue to do so. IE intentionally lagging
>yourself while laying Lmines, or laying Lmines inside solid objects.
I am shocked and appalled by this statement simply because it's downright untrue! I have NEVER caused myself to lag or lay mines while lagging intentionally. I'm currently hooked up to a local dorm connection via DHCP ethernet which I have absolutely no control over. I have no knowledge whatsoever in networking or how these connections even work to be able to exploit it. If I'm lagging that badly, I usually log myself out to avoid getting killed through delayed docking or slow load times. Sorry if you got lag mined or whatever. It was never intentional.
>How is that different? You also camp stations, just as you complained about.
I wasn't complaining about camping. I was complaining about the fact that you bypassed the NPCDEFs intentionally to kill high bounty players (including newbies). My reference to the s12 incident was to demonstrate why I attacked you afterwards--revenge.
>Sitting in a dock, firing seekers when there's no possible way anyone could kill
>you. This is my main problem with you, you're very, very hypocritical.
There's that "eye for an eye" part.
>As for my "exploiting" the devs clearly made intentional changes to the NPCDEF
>AI code, and since it's not been fixed, I think that should tell you that yes, it was
>intentional.
Misinformed again. The NPCDEFs have since been fixed with an improved detection range for KOS players. Check up on your facts, please. The bot AI was broken, and unfortunately some of it still is. In any case you knew about it and took advantage of it. Since 3.4, I've never used exploits to gain money, gain kills, or gain experience points. I also never recall entering a home sector of another nation and taking the bounty of newbie buses. If I did something cheap towards anyway, it's because they did it on me first.
>Cheap tactics? Yep, but as you and several others have said, and led by example,
>we're at war. No excuses.
I have no problem with cheap tactics. As I said, if someone pulls 'em on me I'll return the favor. It's exploiting that makes the difference and causes people to get angry, which is what you were originally wondering about in this thread. Piro makes a very valid point that until someone is absolutely prepared to defend themselves, they shouldn't leave their home sectors. You went so far as to violate that by entering the only protected area for these players.
So much for a "Quick Question". I think the answer was in there someplace.
I don't think it's been "okay" for any of the characters mentioned to behave as described. There are always complaints of some sort.
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I don't think it's been "okay" for any of the characters mentioned to behave as described. There are always complaints of some sort.
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