Forums » Suggestions
I make this suggestion on the premise of 3 assumptions which I think are fairly reasonable:
1) 10/10/10/10/10 will get you just about anything in VO with the exception of the Valent Maud B and maybe a few other exceptional faction ships that have outdated license requirements. (for instance the maud B is scarecely used but used to be the beez neez of trader vessel thus is an anomaly)
2) The standing system should be (a) Dynamic, (b) Diverse in terms of ways to lose/gain faction standing and (c) already acts as a gateway to items and unlocks
3) Vo appeals to a market segment distinct from regular MMO players that hate 'grinding' - appeals more to FPS friendly segment that wants to be part of an action packed adventure, not play repetitive gameplay.
I suggest we abolish the license system almost entirely as part of the update to the tutorial system that is up-and-coming with the iOS release.
Instead, implement a 3 tier certification system for new players based on mission flags that require training to be completed to the extent that they will understand the basic concepts of the weapons before they get access to them.
Then, focus on reforms to the faction system as above to make it harder to gain faction standing purely by grinding proc missions.
To summarise, we do not really need licenses, they do more to promote the idea that we are yet another grindy MMO like EVE with gameplay fundamentally built around profitability instead of fun, designed to keep players subscribed for as long as possible. Since that is not the case we should feel no need to conform to the MMO standard of repetitive gameplay in order to entertain.
1) 10/10/10/10/10 will get you just about anything in VO with the exception of the Valent Maud B and maybe a few other exceptional faction ships that have outdated license requirements. (for instance the maud B is scarecely used but used to be the beez neez of trader vessel thus is an anomaly)
2) The standing system should be (a) Dynamic, (b) Diverse in terms of ways to lose/gain faction standing and (c) already acts as a gateway to items and unlocks
3) Vo appeals to a market segment distinct from regular MMO players that hate 'grinding' - appeals more to FPS friendly segment that wants to be part of an action packed adventure, not play repetitive gameplay.
I suggest we abolish the license system almost entirely as part of the update to the tutorial system that is up-and-coming with the iOS release.
Instead, implement a 3 tier certification system for new players based on mission flags that require training to be completed to the extent that they will understand the basic concepts of the weapons before they get access to them.
Then, focus on reforms to the faction system as above to make it harder to gain faction standing purely by grinding proc missions.
To summarise, we do not really need licenses, they do more to promote the idea that we are yet another grindy MMO like EVE with gameplay fundamentally built around profitability instead of fun, designed to keep players subscribed for as long as possible. Since that is not the case we should feel no need to conform to the MMO standard of repetitive gameplay in order to entertain.
-1
The grinding in VO is minimal and already is nowhere near as extensive as is common in other MMOs.
The license system serves the purpose of separating main characters from alts. It only takes a few hours to achieve minimal licenses that will allow you access to most equipment, but that's still enough of an investment to give a character meaning. Otherwise there wouldn't be much incentive to keep characters that have been invested in, and it would be all to easy to create a new character for every day of the week. Plus, what you propose would make deleting an re-creating a character too easy for the purposes of starting with a clean slate.
Personally, I like the license system. It doesn't have much purchasing power beyond level 10, as you mention, but it is still fun to provide a goal for something to achieve when reaching the higher levels. Plus, it is a means to distinguish the experienced players from complete newbies when seeking out someone to be a mentor, for example.
The grinding in VO is minimal and already is nowhere near as extensive as is common in other MMOs.
The license system serves the purpose of separating main characters from alts. It only takes a few hours to achieve minimal licenses that will allow you access to most equipment, but that's still enough of an investment to give a character meaning. Otherwise there wouldn't be much incentive to keep characters that have been invested in, and it would be all to easy to create a new character for every day of the week. Plus, what you propose would make deleting an re-creating a character too easy for the purposes of starting with a clean slate.
Personally, I like the license system. It doesn't have much purchasing power beyond level 10, as you mention, but it is still fun to provide a goal for something to achieve when reaching the higher levels. Plus, it is a means to distinguish the experienced players from complete newbies when seeking out someone to be a mentor, for example.
Vo appeals to a market segment distinct from regular MMO players that hate 'grinding'
-1
I can only speak for myself, but I actually kind of enjoy grinding sometimes, and it's nice to have some sort of progress indicator to keep track of.... progress. Licenses are a convenient way to do this.
VO at least does not tie in licenses to any sort of enhancements in combat; it's limited solely to what equipment one can purchase, and this new equipment is only marginally better than the old. This is what really sets VO apart from other MMOs: a player with high licenses could easily be taken down by a player with lower licenses if off his or her guard.
Otherwise, VO basically follows a "infinite advancement system"[1][2], able to keep track of a character's progress throughout his or her lifetime, without tying overpowered equipment or status to that achievement. My personal opinion is that this is a feature of VO that should be left in.
-1
I can only speak for myself, but I actually kind of enjoy grinding sometimes, and it's nice to have some sort of progress indicator to keep track of.... progress. Licenses are a convenient way to do this.
VO at least does not tie in licenses to any sort of enhancements in combat; it's limited solely to what equipment one can purchase, and this new equipment is only marginally better than the old. This is what really sets VO apart from other MMOs: a player with high licenses could easily be taken down by a player with lower licenses if off his or her guard.
Otherwise, VO basically follows a "infinite advancement system"[1][2], able to keep track of a character's progress throughout his or her lifetime, without tying overpowered equipment or status to that achievement. My personal opinion is that this is a feature of VO that should be left in.
The grinding in VO is minimal and already is nowhere near as extensive as is common in other MMOs.
It didn't seem so minimal to noob-me 2 years ago trying to get light weapons 9 for the IDF Valkyrie. Then again, Border Skirmishes gave ZERO weapons XP back then.
Grinding for standing most definitely is NOT minimal.
It's a "grind" if you have to specifically work at it. If you gain standing and levels as a general progression of playing the game, then we can say grinding is minimal. As it is right now. You will never be POS with Orion by doing Hive Skirmish Missions, period. It's still a grind.
It didn't seem so minimal to noob-me 2 years ago trying to get light weapons 9 for the IDF Valkyrie. Then again, Border Skirmishes gave ZERO weapons XP back then.
Grinding for standing most definitely is NOT minimal.
It's a "grind" if you have to specifically work at it. If you gain standing and levels as a general progression of playing the game, then we can say grinding is minimal. As it is right now. You will never be POS with Orion by doing Hive Skirmish Missions, period. It's still a grind.
-1
I have mixed feelings.
I have some experience with grinding in VO. I have created over 50 new characters. Some of those are, and are destined to remain, level 0. But many have been advanced to at least combat 3, and I have had characters in the teens.
Most of the time, I hate grinding. It annoys me to no end. Further, grinding consumes almost all of a trial user's trial time.
However, grinding, in and of itself, is sometimes a basic objective of the game. There are times when I just feel like snuffing bots in mass.
Grinding helps promote observable player activity. All those bulk trade missions mean that players have to fly a trade ship from station a to station b. Players need to actively hunt hive, etc. A large number of observed players in space are observed because they are grinding, or are hunting grinders.
If you are not grinding levels or standing, then you would be grinding something else, like credits. Grinding in some form is the nature of the game, by merit that it is a game.
Grinding helps improve player skill. Beginner combat requires you to kill about 200 dentecs in a row to get from level 1 to level 3 combat. I can do this in about 30 minutes, because I have the player skill to do it. But for a noob, this is valuable player experience. A noob that can not kill dentecs has little or no chance against an assault class bots.
Levels help keep noobs out of trouble. You need level 3 combat to take a skirmish. If you don't have level 3 combat, and do not have the player skill to get it, you probably should not be in a skirmish. If you don't have the levels to purchase a moth, you probably should not launch in a moth loaded with flares. We can not stop every noob from doing everything idiotic, but we can at least provide a fairly clear roadmap for those willing to follow it, and levels and level grinding is that roadmap.
I have mixed feelings.
I have some experience with grinding in VO. I have created over 50 new characters. Some of those are, and are destined to remain, level 0. But many have been advanced to at least combat 3, and I have had characters in the teens.
Most of the time, I hate grinding. It annoys me to no end. Further, grinding consumes almost all of a trial user's trial time.
However, grinding, in and of itself, is sometimes a basic objective of the game. There are times when I just feel like snuffing bots in mass.
Grinding helps promote observable player activity. All those bulk trade missions mean that players have to fly a trade ship from station a to station b. Players need to actively hunt hive, etc. A large number of observed players in space are observed because they are grinding, or are hunting grinders.
If you are not grinding levels or standing, then you would be grinding something else, like credits. Grinding in some form is the nature of the game, by merit that it is a game.
Grinding helps improve player skill. Beginner combat requires you to kill about 200 dentecs in a row to get from level 1 to level 3 combat. I can do this in about 30 minutes, because I have the player skill to do it. But for a noob, this is valuable player experience. A noob that can not kill dentecs has little or no chance against an assault class bots.
Levels help keep noobs out of trouble. You need level 3 combat to take a skirmish. If you don't have level 3 combat, and do not have the player skill to get it, you probably should not be in a skirmish. If you don't have the levels to purchase a moth, you probably should not launch in a moth loaded with flares. We can not stop every noob from doing everything idiotic, but we can at least provide a fairly clear roadmap for those willing to follow it, and levels and level grinding is that roadmap.
The levels are stupid and always have been
+1
+1
-1
-1
I'm all about 3-tier systems.
huh? +0? : ]
+1, although I don't have a clue what exactly he wants to replace the current system with.
From a RP perspective, license levels do not make any sense whatsoever. If there are meant as a sort of "driver's license", why on earth would a serco station honour levels earned doing Itani missions? And who is counting the amount of bots you shoot in empty sectors?
A standing based system makes a lot more sense. Rare ship types should be limited to military (UIT: corporate) rank, which can only be earned doing "official" missions or maybe by killing "enemies of the state". Most uncommon weapon systems should be limited to people with decent standing.
Trade/mining levels would ideally be replaced by advance in a trading/mining guild, although it's not quite clear how scarcity for e.g. the big ship types can easily be introduced, and without scarcity guilds have no real reason to keep ships etc from novice members.
Alternatively, maybe UIT should have all the cool trade/mine ships which can be earned by corporate rank only, as they won't give their high end (competition sensitive) ships to just anyone. As it is now, UIT pilots can join either military, and serco/itani can join a corporation, and certain corporations are mutually exclusive.
Military/Corporate rank can feel as much like "progression" as the current license system, but as it would feel more like a relationship between you and an existing entity (nation/corporation)
Of course, there should be a healthy black market both in grey and maybe in "pirate" bases in nation space, and it should be very profitable to buy cool ships and sell them in the pirate station, but if caught should cost you rank...
From a RP perspective, license levels do not make any sense whatsoever. If there are meant as a sort of "driver's license", why on earth would a serco station honour levels earned doing Itani missions? And who is counting the amount of bots you shoot in empty sectors?
A standing based system makes a lot more sense. Rare ship types should be limited to military (UIT: corporate) rank, which can only be earned doing "official" missions or maybe by killing "enemies of the state". Most uncommon weapon systems should be limited to people with decent standing.
Trade/mining levels would ideally be replaced by advance in a trading/mining guild, although it's not quite clear how scarcity for e.g. the big ship types can easily be introduced, and without scarcity guilds have no real reason to keep ships etc from novice members.
Alternatively, maybe UIT should have all the cool trade/mine ships which can be earned by corporate rank only, as they won't give their high end (competition sensitive) ships to just anyone. As it is now, UIT pilots can join either military, and serco/itani can join a corporation, and certain corporations are mutually exclusive.
Military/Corporate rank can feel as much like "progression" as the current license system, but as it would feel more like a relationship between you and an existing entity (nation/corporation)
Of course, there should be a healthy black market both in grey and maybe in "pirate" bases in nation space, and it should be very profitable to buy cool ships and sell them in the pirate station, but if caught should cost you rank...
+1
I remember Incarnate stating in the past that he eventually wants to replace the level system with something similar to the 'Test Missions' we already have for the TPG Raptor or X-1 Valk.
Basically a mission string which tests your abilities and, if successfully completed, grants you the 'License' to use a certain weapon/ship/equipment.
This would be much more engaging than simply killing some kind of bot repeatedly until your yxz stats reach whatever level and you automagically are able to buy new equipment.
Basically a mission string which tests your abilities and, if successfully completed, grants you the 'License' to use a certain weapon/ship/equipment.
This would be much more engaging than simply killing some kind of bot repeatedly until your yxz stats reach whatever level and you automagically are able to buy new equipment.
The game was never intended to have levels, I wanted to do all progression through mission trees. When we were unable to build the game I wanted, I jammed a level system in there to give some progression metric.
However, "removing" the level system at this point is not trivial. There's a lot of stuff pinned to it, for now. Including the new "Lite" subscription test. I'm not against removing or deprecating levels, and I'm open and welcoming to new thoughts on that.. but do not expect it on the timeframe of the iOS release. It's a much larger task than I think the OP may anticipate..
However, "removing" the level system at this point is not trivial. There's a lot of stuff pinned to it, for now. Including the new "Lite" subscription test. I'm not against removing or deprecating levels, and I'm open and welcoming to new thoughts on that.. but do not expect it on the timeframe of the iOS release. It's a much larger task than I think the OP may anticipate..
The grinding in VO is minimal and already is nowhere near as extensive as is common in other MMOs.
Yeah it's certainly not *as* extensive as other MMO's, i'm with you there, but it does exist and it is fairly unnecessary. It's also hard to see from the outside that it's not a really tough grind, even if players later come in and discover that it isn't so bad by comparison.
It's a much larger task than I think the OP may anticipate..
It is frustrating that the Lite subscription is limited by levels, if I had to offer an alternative, I could suggest limitation by standing with certain/all factions instead. In terms of undertaking a task, well, that's not my department. I only suggest it now because it seems like the appropriate time to if you're planning what the game will look like to new players looking in, I suggest you plan around avoiding any sort of association with typical MMO grinding. I think it draws both unrealistic and negative connotations for VO, since we know it really isn't THAT grindy.
1+, although I don't have a clue what exactly he wants to replace the current system with.
Pretty much what Niki said. With just the PCC mission editor we have now for instance we could design way cooler weapon certification missions that actually involve using the weapon the player is going to be unlocking, and then use flags to unlock it.
Incarnate is the license system really that technically significant? couldn't you modify the license levels requirements of everything just to be 1/1/1/1/1 and then hide all associated references to the license system, leaving the other factors to determine availability, then add the certification style missions in with flags for lots of the weapons - THAT would not be trivial per se, but I can't imagine it being a comparatively huge project.
Yeah it's certainly not *as* extensive as other MMO's, i'm with you there, but it does exist and it is fairly unnecessary. It's also hard to see from the outside that it's not a really tough grind, even if players later come in and discover that it isn't so bad by comparison.
It's a much larger task than I think the OP may anticipate..
It is frustrating that the Lite subscription is limited by levels, if I had to offer an alternative, I could suggest limitation by standing with certain/all factions instead. In terms of undertaking a task, well, that's not my department. I only suggest it now because it seems like the appropriate time to if you're planning what the game will look like to new players looking in, I suggest you plan around avoiding any sort of association with typical MMO grinding. I think it draws both unrealistic and negative connotations for VO, since we know it really isn't THAT grindy.
1+, although I don't have a clue what exactly he wants to replace the current system with.
Pretty much what Niki said. With just the PCC mission editor we have now for instance we could design way cooler weapon certification missions that actually involve using the weapon the player is going to be unlocking, and then use flags to unlock it.
Incarnate is the license system really that technically significant? couldn't you modify the license levels requirements of everything just to be 1/1/1/1/1 and then hide all associated references to the license system, leaving the other factors to determine availability, then add the certification style missions in with flags for lots of the weapons - THAT would not be trivial per se, but I can't imagine it being a comparatively huge project.
Why not add in certification missions for associated equipment, leaving license requirements alone?
have any of the vets actually taken the basic flight test mission? it takes all of 6 minutes. 6 little minutes of infuriating idleness. 6 minutes to kill a dozen harmless oruns, and one orun actually armed with a weapon. 6 minutes of sitting....waiting... NEXT BOT KILL!...waiting...sitting...tick tick tick...
I could have been level 1 in 4 minutes killing dentecs. but no. i can not take the beginner combat mission until i complete the G@$ D@^* basic flight test!
and you want to replace the level system with missions! mission written by the same devs that wrote the basic flight test mission? Really!?! you are just replacing one grind with a new grind. and in my limited experience, the new one is likely to be worse than the old one. anyone recall the old border patrol mission? grinders paradise.
and then you have the nerve to mention PCC. To my knowledge, with almost the exclusive exception of a single author, no useful missions have come from the entire PCC program. name a single usefull mission not written by that author? write me a replacement mission for the basic flight test. anyone. back it up or shut up.
I could have been level 1 in 4 minutes killing dentecs. but no. i can not take the beginner combat mission until i complete the G@$ D@^* basic flight test!
and you want to replace the level system with missions! mission written by the same devs that wrote the basic flight test mission? Really!?! you are just replacing one grind with a new grind. and in my limited experience, the new one is likely to be worse than the old one. anyone recall the old border patrol mission? grinders paradise.
and then you have the nerve to mention PCC. To my knowledge, with almost the exclusive exception of a single author, no useful missions have come from the entire PCC program. name a single usefull mission not written by that author? write me a replacement mission for the basic flight test. anyone. back it up or shut up.
Please don't forget the very best part of the basic flight test mission: it forces helpless noobs to fly to an unmonitored sector and stay there for 6 minutes. If they die during the mission, it sends them back to the very same killing field... time after time after time after time.
It's one of my very favorite missions!
It's one of my very favorite missions!
can you die in this mission? I just hold the brake and fire. if the bot hits me, so what.
I have no idea if a noob has ever died during the mission from the bots themselves. I am sure they can die during the mission as I've killed hundreds of them, some a dozen or so times each.