Forums » Suggestions
Phaserlight: I'm open to it as a project, but the point is to reduce the grind associated with obtaining new weapons in favour of missions, if we have both it seems a little excessive.
Levels, licenses, characters skills, faction standing, credits, badges, accomplishments, acquisitions, reputation. We can choose what metrics we wish to have, or have none at all.
Quake had very few metrics: health, armor, weapons, ammo, kills, deaths. Is that what you are suggesting? Fewer metrics?
Or are you suggesting renaming the metrics? Do you simply wish to replace license levels with mission accomplishments. Much of that can be accomplished now without even bothering to rename any metrics. If you don't want to have to kill 200 dentecs to get to combat 3, then make a mission to do something else to get to combat 3.
Hiding the "Combat 3" flag doesn't make it go away, it just hides it.
I loved quake. I would be perfectly happy if I could fly out of the training sector and purchase a valk. But is this what you are suggesting?
If you are not really changing anything, then stop trying to make it look changed.
Quake had very few metrics: health, armor, weapons, ammo, kills, deaths. Is that what you are suggesting? Fewer metrics?
Or are you suggesting renaming the metrics? Do you simply wish to replace license levels with mission accomplishments. Much of that can be accomplished now without even bothering to rename any metrics. If you don't want to have to kill 200 dentecs to get to combat 3, then make a mission to do something else to get to combat 3.
Hiding the "Combat 3" flag doesn't make it go away, it just hides it.
I loved quake. I would be perfectly happy if I could fly out of the training sector and purchase a valk. But is this what you are suggesting?
If you are not really changing anything, then stop trying to make it look changed.
My biggest issue with the OP is that even though I understand the present license system wasn't Incarnate's original vision (I was around from before we had licenses or experience points; the "new" universe was all of 18 sectors, and credits were the only limiting factor), since the introduction of the PCC license levels have become a framework lattice upon which to build content.
Before the PCC, license levels were even more of a grind, if you can believe that. Part of what I was intending to do in building on to the "Rogue Drones" tree was basically what you are suggesting: creating a series of goal-oriented missions with unique circumstances that leads the player into a new realm of opportunity. The license system provided a framework in which to do that; successfully completing the Rogue Drones tree will result in a player having achieved Combat license 3.
Having achieved Combat license 3 "Hazardous Site Investigation" becomes available (along with Skirmishes and other missions), which has been in the works for... years. This is a branching tree with storyline options that will result in a player reaching Combat license 4, at which point some of Crazyspence's mission trees become available. It is the same thing with Trade; there is a series of Trade missions at TL2, but not yet at TL1. Light Weapons 2 opens up a series of missions in Itani space, etc.
The point I'm getting at is that the license levels are a framework that is slowly being filled up with player generated and dev-implemented content. Eventually, when there is enough mission content, I think the mission system will allow player progression to occur in an indistinguishable manner from what you suggest. However, I think we're a long ways off from this, and removing or collapsing the license system is not the right approach. Do this, and one or two trees will collapse, too.
As a designer, the licenses are extremely convenient when approaching a potentially high-level project; it's enough for me to be able to say "Okay, I'm planning to build a mission tree at Trade 6. Even though I know there aren't any missions that link up with my tree now, the license system ensures that there is enough room for someone to come in and design some in the future". Forgive the analogy, but it's like having a lattice on which a set of vines are growing. Some vines may not be ready to stand on their own.
The license system lets me design content around expected levels of user experience without being forced to rely on currently implemented mission trees.
Before the PCC, license levels were even more of a grind, if you can believe that. Part of what I was intending to do in building on to the "Rogue Drones" tree was basically what you are suggesting: creating a series of goal-oriented missions with unique circumstances that leads the player into a new realm of opportunity. The license system provided a framework in which to do that; successfully completing the Rogue Drones tree will result in a player having achieved Combat license 3.
Having achieved Combat license 3 "Hazardous Site Investigation" becomes available (along with Skirmishes and other missions), which has been in the works for... years. This is a branching tree with storyline options that will result in a player reaching Combat license 4, at which point some of Crazyspence's mission trees become available. It is the same thing with Trade; there is a series of Trade missions at TL2, but not yet at TL1. Light Weapons 2 opens up a series of missions in Itani space, etc.
The point I'm getting at is that the license levels are a framework that is slowly being filled up with player generated and dev-implemented content. Eventually, when there is enough mission content, I think the mission system will allow player progression to occur in an indistinguishable manner from what you suggest. However, I think we're a long ways off from this, and removing or collapsing the license system is not the right approach. Do this, and one or two trees will collapse, too.
As a designer, the licenses are extremely convenient when approaching a potentially high-level project; it's enough for me to be able to say "Okay, I'm planning to build a mission tree at Trade 6. Even though I know there aren't any missions that link up with my tree now, the license system ensures that there is enough room for someone to come in and design some in the future". Forgive the analogy, but it's like having a lattice on which a set of vines are growing. Some vines may not be ready to stand on their own.
The license system lets me design content around expected levels of user experience without being forced to rely on currently implemented mission trees.
Don't read too far into the missions thing. This suggestion is more about differentiating VO from other 'MMO' games that rely on forcing you to do the same thing over and over until you reach the requisite 'xp' in order to go and grind something else.
Because VO is not like this anyway, or at least it doesn't have to be, it should be more obvious from the outset. In addition to the roleplay reasons highlighted by another poster.
Designing content on the basis of a license requirement fitting a certain subset of the playerbase has failed. Missions almost always have unappealing rewards because the license system is a completely innacurate measurement of player progress in a game like VO. Players quickly outgrow the idea of 'missions' altogether.
All i'd propose instead is basic unlock missions, for instance one for the sunflare: You are given a single sunflare and tasked to destroy some targets with it. If you succeed you unlock the license to buy the weapon. Much quicker than making them level up for it and much more useful too. Don't forget this is a requirement on top of having local standing to purchase the weapon.
The level system feels like a bad fit for VO, I think it does more harm than good for first impressions of the game, and I don't think its nearly as fundamental to the game as Phaserlight and others are pretending it is. I don't think it's fair to say it's fundamental to the game at all.
Because VO is not like this anyway, or at least it doesn't have to be, it should be more obvious from the outset. In addition to the roleplay reasons highlighted by another poster.
Designing content on the basis of a license requirement fitting a certain subset of the playerbase has failed. Missions almost always have unappealing rewards because the license system is a completely innacurate measurement of player progress in a game like VO. Players quickly outgrow the idea of 'missions' altogether.
All i'd propose instead is basic unlock missions, for instance one for the sunflare: You are given a single sunflare and tasked to destroy some targets with it. If you succeed you unlock the license to buy the weapon. Much quicker than making them level up for it and much more useful too. Don't forget this is a requirement on top of having local standing to purchase the weapon.
The level system feels like a bad fit for VO, I think it does more harm than good for first impressions of the game, and I don't think its nearly as fundamental to the game as Phaserlight and others are pretending it is. I don't think it's fair to say it's fundamental to the game at all.
It has nothing to do with pretending. My thesis is that although license levels may never have been intended to be fundamental, they have become essential through the PCC and the time players have spent increasing their licenses. This thread began as a suggested way to differentiate VO from Eve and other MMOs. I am countering that what differentiates VO from other MMOs is not tied to the license system, and also attacking the assumption that "grinding" is necessarily a bad thing (in your original post you call Eve a "grindy" MMO; to me that would imply you actually have to play the game in order to improve your stats... Eve is really more like a waiting game from my perspective).
Rather than reversing the current implementation of license levels, I think a better way forward would be to create interesting paths through these license levels through the use of missions, special events and the like... possibly resulting in higher-license equipment becoming available only through special tests or mission trees. First impressions may be important, but what's underneath them is far more important. The fact that a skilled license 4 player can take down a license 14 player without too much trouble is what sets VO apart, not the presence or absence of licenses themselves.
The license levels are a point of parity with an interesting twist (5 categories) that result in design opportunities that would vanish otherwise, and they foster a sense of friendly competition within the community (the "Oh, wow" factor of seeing someone with licenses in the 20's). I'm not at all opposed to change, but removing or collapsing the licenses wouldn't be a good change.
/2c
Rather than reversing the current implementation of license levels, I think a better way forward would be to create interesting paths through these license levels through the use of missions, special events and the like... possibly resulting in higher-license equipment becoming available only through special tests or mission trees. First impressions may be important, but what's underneath them is far more important. The fact that a skilled license 4 player can take down a license 14 player without too much trouble is what sets VO apart, not the presence or absence of licenses themselves.
The license levels are a point of parity with an interesting twist (5 categories) that result in design opportunities that would vanish otherwise, and they foster a sense of friendly competition within the community (the "Oh, wow" factor of seeing someone with licenses in the 20's). I'm not at all opposed to change, but removing or collapsing the licenses wouldn't be a good change.
/2c
Phaserlight said:
I am countering that what differentiates VO from other MMOs is not tied to the license system...and also attacking the assumption that "grinding" is necessarily a bad thing
To clarify, that has always been my position. But I don't think they are beneficial for any of the current mentioned reasons. Also, grinding isn't a bad thing so long as it's optional. It doesn't need to be *the* progression mechanic and people shouldn't be forced to repeat game-play like that just to progress.
Bragging rights is a terrible rationale for keeping something the way it is. It also has a very simple solution. If you abolish the level system you can simply give players who have achieved high levels something else to brag about, special ship unlocks etc.. etc.. problem solved.
Phaserlight said:
First impressions may be important, but what's underneath them is far more important.
But there is nothing underneath licensing - once you get to 10's it's simply superfluous. First impressions certainly do count and on its face Vendetta looks like a game you have to spend 2-3 years playing just to get the top equipment. Since it is not the case and for all the aforementioned reasons there's no need to keep it around.
Phaserlight said:
The fact that a skilled license 4 player can take down a license 14 player without too much trouble is what sets VO apart, not the presence or absence of licenses themselves.
The fact that a license 4 player can take down a license 14 player in itself just goes to show that it's completely meaningless. It only has meaning by comparison to other games where it's impossible for a level 4 to kill a level 14. It's far better not to draw the comparisons in the first place.
Phaserlight said:
The license levels are a point of parity with an interesting twist (5 categories) that result in design opportunities that would vanish otherwise, and they foster a sense of friendly competition within the community (the "Oh, wow" factor of seeing someone with licenses in the 20's).
I don't see the design opportunities, and I don't see how those design opportunities wouldn't be around if we used certification missions with flags instead.
Also, the point about 'wow factor' is again only significant by comparison to other games (which I suggest is a negative comparison). When I see someone with 20 licenses all I can think is "what a waste of time".
It also doesn't foster friendly competition in the community, it inhibits it by suggesting that if you're a higher level you're somehow more important. Your importance should be measured by your impact not by how much time you spend killing bots alone in sectors, or even how long you have played the game for.
Overall, your point about working missions around the license system is a good one, but I will not be convinced it is the right path to take until I see a way that missions can be designed so that the rewards aren't completely lackluster. And even then, it doesn't offset the negative comparison to other games that I think VO would benefit from being without.
I am countering that what differentiates VO from other MMOs is not tied to the license system...and also attacking the assumption that "grinding" is necessarily a bad thing
To clarify, that has always been my position. But I don't think they are beneficial for any of the current mentioned reasons. Also, grinding isn't a bad thing so long as it's optional. It doesn't need to be *the* progression mechanic and people shouldn't be forced to repeat game-play like that just to progress.
Bragging rights is a terrible rationale for keeping something the way it is. It also has a very simple solution. If you abolish the level system you can simply give players who have achieved high levels something else to brag about, special ship unlocks etc.. etc.. problem solved.
Phaserlight said:
First impressions may be important, but what's underneath them is far more important.
But there is nothing underneath licensing - once you get to 10's it's simply superfluous. First impressions certainly do count and on its face Vendetta looks like a game you have to spend 2-3 years playing just to get the top equipment. Since it is not the case and for all the aforementioned reasons there's no need to keep it around.
Phaserlight said:
The fact that a skilled license 4 player can take down a license 14 player without too much trouble is what sets VO apart, not the presence or absence of licenses themselves.
The fact that a license 4 player can take down a license 14 player in itself just goes to show that it's completely meaningless. It only has meaning by comparison to other games where it's impossible for a level 4 to kill a level 14. It's far better not to draw the comparisons in the first place.
Phaserlight said:
The license levels are a point of parity with an interesting twist (5 categories) that result in design opportunities that would vanish otherwise, and they foster a sense of friendly competition within the community (the "Oh, wow" factor of seeing someone with licenses in the 20's).
I don't see the design opportunities, and I don't see how those design opportunities wouldn't be around if we used certification missions with flags instead.
Also, the point about 'wow factor' is again only significant by comparison to other games (which I suggest is a negative comparison). When I see someone with 20 licenses all I can think is "what a waste of time".
It also doesn't foster friendly competition in the community, it inhibits it by suggesting that if you're a higher level you're somehow more important. Your importance should be measured by your impact not by how much time you spend killing bots alone in sectors, or even how long you have played the game for.
Overall, your point about working missions around the license system is a good one, but I will not be convinced it is the right path to take until I see a way that missions can be designed so that the rewards aren't completely lackluster. And even then, it doesn't offset the negative comparison to other games that I think VO would benefit from being without.
I really wish that I could leave the training sector and fly a valk. But I do worry about noobs that would undock a 200gat xc, with no clue. You want to "Abolish the perception that Vo has 'Levels'". But much of what I hear is just replacing levels with something more deceptive, levels by another name. Are you just attempting to change perception, in a bold faced act of deception? Or are you actually trying to remove the grinding?
I really like the rogue drone mission tree. It will take you well into levels 3/3/2/-/-. But even if I use other characters to collect all the materials in advance, and dump them in front of the dock, it still takes a new character just as much time to reach these levels as killing dentecs. This is not even accounting for the time it took other characters to collect those items. It doesn't save time.
The intermediate combat mission fills an important gap. But it appears to be balanced according to the other combat missions. It isn't any faster. The "Help! Rogue Queen detected" and "The Gauntlet" are interesting, but again, not any faster.
There is nothing stopping anyone from making missions that skip you to level 10. But I would bet credits that it would not make it past the devs.
It would be easy to make the current level system insignificant. Once you are past level 10, there isn't much in your way. I would like to force unskilled noobs to grind, just to make them gain skill. But I as a skilled player would like to take a 5 minute mission to prove I can fly a valk with sunflares and a fast charge power cell and be done with it.
but good luck getting such a mission past the devs. not only has a dev spoken up and said that the level system was too important to ditch, they avoided saying anything about their view on grinding.
so go ahead. make a mission that bumps me to level 10. make it hard. make me kill 100 tycorp in a single session. w/e. give it your best shot. just see if you get it past the devs. gl.
I really like the rogue drone mission tree. It will take you well into levels 3/3/2/-/-. But even if I use other characters to collect all the materials in advance, and dump them in front of the dock, it still takes a new character just as much time to reach these levels as killing dentecs. This is not even accounting for the time it took other characters to collect those items. It doesn't save time.
The intermediate combat mission fills an important gap. But it appears to be balanced according to the other combat missions. It isn't any faster. The "Help! Rogue Queen detected" and "The Gauntlet" are interesting, but again, not any faster.
There is nothing stopping anyone from making missions that skip you to level 10. But I would bet credits that it would not make it past the devs.
It would be easy to make the current level system insignificant. Once you are past level 10, there isn't much in your way. I would like to force unskilled noobs to grind, just to make them gain skill. But I as a skilled player would like to take a 5 minute mission to prove I can fly a valk with sunflares and a fast charge power cell and be done with it.
but good luck getting such a mission past the devs. not only has a dev spoken up and said that the level system was too important to ditch, they avoided saying anything about their view on grinding.
so go ahead. make a mission that bumps me to level 10. make it hard. make me kill 100 tycorp in a single session. w/e. give it your best shot. just see if you get it past the devs. gl.
DE this is not a thread about getting missions past the devs. It's not a referendum on the merits of grinding either. As I said, I agree that grinding is fine but compulsory grinding is not.
As I said earlier, what I really dislike about the levels is that they are global, while any believable level/rank system should be tied into the factions/corporations. So, why not just drop levels and keep standing, and limit ships/weapons by faction standing? Serco/Itani standing can take the place of the combat levels, and corporate standing can take the place of mining or trading depending on the corporation.
The current mission branches can simply be tied to standing (both as prerequisite and as benefit) rather than levels, I don't think it should be a problem. It also makes more sense that a nation/corporation would give a mission to a trusted pilot, rather than to a pilot who spent lots of time shooting bots in the hive sectors of another nation...
From a faction nationalist POV, I also think that the top end of standing should only be attainable through organized combat against the opponent , ie deneb, CtC and such like.
The current mission branches can simply be tied to standing (both as prerequisite and as benefit) rather than levels, I don't think it should be a problem. It also makes more sense that a nation/corporation would give a mission to a trusted pilot, rather than to a pilot who spent lots of time shooting bots in the hive sectors of another nation...
From a faction nationalist POV, I also think that the top end of standing should only be attainable through organized combat against the opponent , ie deneb, CtC and such like.
^^^ this
The grinding itself can not be gotten rid of. The point of it is to prove your ready to move to a more advanced area among other things.
However:
The level system could be gotten rid of and replaced by badge and mission requirements.
The devs would need to first hide the levels and make them no longer accessable to players or mission.
then anything broken would need to be fixed
Xp rewards would be next to go and then each license type would then be removed and the associated breakage fixed
It would take a lot of dev time but it would also change VO's basic nature as well.
In principle I think its a great idea but there are a lot of pitfalls that will need to be avoided.
To be honest VO may have reached a point where the devs need to stop work on VO and begin a complete new rewrite of the game. The spaghetti is long over cooked and has turned into a soggy mess...
However:
The level system could be gotten rid of and replaced by badge and mission requirements.
The devs would need to first hide the levels and make them no longer accessable to players or mission.
then anything broken would need to be fixed
Xp rewards would be next to go and then each license type would then be removed and the associated breakage fixed
It would take a lot of dev time but it would also change VO's basic nature as well.
In principle I think its a great idea but there are a lot of pitfalls that will need to be avoided.
To be honest VO may have reached a point where the devs need to stop work on VO and begin a complete new rewrite of the game. The spaghetti is long over cooked and has turned into a soggy mess...
DE-1414h said:
But I as a skilled player would like to take a 5 minute mission to prove I can fly a valk with sunflares and a fast charge power cell and be done with it.
I disagree here. There should never be a short-cut to high levels or top tier gear. I can see why you would want it, DE, as by the time you reached those levels, you'd be out of trial time, or close to. Sorry, but thats the price you pay instead ot the monthly sub. Live with it.
The idea of faction standing based "licenses" is attractive, but the UIT players need a way to get combat gear without having to choose a side in the red vs blue war. Otherwise, players who try to maintain neutrality would be nothing more than sitting ducks.
Faille.
But I as a skilled player would like to take a 5 minute mission to prove I can fly a valk with sunflares and a fast charge power cell and be done with it.
I disagree here. There should never be a short-cut to high levels or top tier gear. I can see why you would want it, DE, as by the time you reached those levels, you'd be out of trial time, or close to. Sorry, but thats the price you pay instead ot the monthly sub. Live with it.
The idea of faction standing based "licenses" is attractive, but the UIT players need a way to get combat gear without having to choose a side in the red vs blue war. Otherwise, players who try to maintain neutrality would be nothing more than sitting ducks.
Faille.
Re UIT players: I think it's fair that a neutral player has less legal access to the best ships etc.. UIT should also sell "good" fighter ships, just like serco/itan should sell "good" trader ships, but the "best" ships should be reserved to the military / corporation officers. I think the choices one makes in terms of fraction allegiance and play style (ie military / neutral / trader etc) should have real impact on the game.
Of course, and UIT that really wants to stay neutral but still fly in the best ships can just get them on the black market.
Of course, and UIT that really wants to stay neutral but still fly in the best ships can just get them on the black market.