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Context
Recent corporate acquisitions by the Aeolus Trading Prefectorate have lead to an expansion into strategic weapons manufacturing. Aeolus is now able to offer its premier Power Disruption Field (PDF) module for purchase exclusively from selected Aeolus stations.
Stats
Required licenses/standing:
7/-/8/8/-
Admire standing
Capacity: 2 mines
Delay: 90s
Damage: 0
Power: 550
Range: 1250m
Detonation: contact
Lifetime: 50 minutes
Self-destructs when power cell is dead
Grid Usage: 4
Mass: 3400kg
Volume (as cargo): 1 cu
Power Cell Drain: 12/s
Notes
This is a drain mine field intended to be used to establish wormhole ambushes and to setup specific zones of home turf for defending objectives or defeating an enemy force. It should function like a long range l-mine that hits any targets in its range subject to owner/group IFF.
It should also be target-able (all mines should be targetable, since they technically are anyway you just need a plugin to do it).
50 minute persistent lifetime is important because it affords the proper opportunity to establish and execute a decent ambush and get enough mines in the right places. Similarly, the 90 second delay to arm is important because it ensures that they must be used this way and can't be randomly dropped in combat or used to escape; these are specifically for creating a home field advantage that is rebuttable if the enemy team expects it and packs some weapons that don't rely on energy to destroy the mines. 550 energy to deploy means that you have to specifically deck out a centaur, prom or warthog to setup the mines with a heavy cell, no running away super quickly if you're caught with your pants down.
You will notice the drain rate is 12/s; one mine on its own is not very useful you need to build a network that either doubles up the rate to 24 in the single 1250m radius bubble, or go for more coverage at the expense of drain. Of course if you bring a Ragnarok or a centaur to deploy them you are able to double your effectiveness or range, however you do so at your risk due to the weight of the two mine launchers being a combined 6800kg and them requiring the heavy cell 550 power to deploy combined with the 90 second charge up arming time means if you don't do your due diligence you're a sitting duck and you could end up dead with your minefield destroyed before a single point of drain occurs.
The suggestion is for them to be available at Aeolus because Aeolus never gets anything good. That reason kinda stands on its own.
This weapon probably doesn't require too much in the way of graphics to be implemented, but it's such a brilliant opportunity to create a beautiful big bubble effect like a sci-fi EMP bubble or a shimmer or flicker in space, I would really like to see what curt could come up with for it.
Anyway, hope everyone likes my preliminary for drain mines, there's a few different ways I can think of that we could use this dynamic but this is the first implementation that came to mind.
Recent corporate acquisitions by the Aeolus Trading Prefectorate have lead to an expansion into strategic weapons manufacturing. Aeolus is now able to offer its premier Power Disruption Field (PDF) module for purchase exclusively from selected Aeolus stations.
Stats
Required licenses/standing:
7/-/8/8/-
Admire standing
Capacity: 2 mines
Delay: 90s
Damage: 0
Power: 550
Range: 1250m
Detonation: contact
Lifetime: 50 minutes
Self-destructs when power cell is dead
Grid Usage: 4
Mass: 3400kg
Volume (as cargo): 1 cu
Power Cell Drain: 12/s
Notes
This is a drain mine field intended to be used to establish wormhole ambushes and to setup specific zones of home turf for defending objectives or defeating an enemy force. It should function like a long range l-mine that hits any targets in its range subject to owner/group IFF.
It should also be target-able (all mines should be targetable, since they technically are anyway you just need a plugin to do it).
50 minute persistent lifetime is important because it affords the proper opportunity to establish and execute a decent ambush and get enough mines in the right places. Similarly, the 90 second delay to arm is important because it ensures that they must be used this way and can't be randomly dropped in combat or used to escape; these are specifically for creating a home field advantage that is rebuttable if the enemy team expects it and packs some weapons that don't rely on energy to destroy the mines. 550 energy to deploy means that you have to specifically deck out a centaur, prom or warthog to setup the mines with a heavy cell, no running away super quickly if you're caught with your pants down.
You will notice the drain rate is 12/s; one mine on its own is not very useful you need to build a network that either doubles up the rate to 24 in the single 1250m radius bubble, or go for more coverage at the expense of drain. Of course if you bring a Ragnarok or a centaur to deploy them you are able to double your effectiveness or range, however you do so at your risk due to the weight of the two mine launchers being a combined 6800kg and them requiring the heavy cell 550 power to deploy combined with the 90 second charge up arming time means if you don't do your due diligence you're a sitting duck and you could end up dead with your minefield destroyed before a single point of drain occurs.
The suggestion is for them to be available at Aeolus because Aeolus never gets anything good. That reason kinda stands on its own.
This weapon probably doesn't require too much in the way of graphics to be implemented, but it's such a brilliant opportunity to create a beautiful big bubble effect like a sci-fi EMP bubble or a shimmer or flicker in space, I would really like to see what curt could come up with for it.
Anyway, hope everyone likes my preliminary for drain mines, there's a few different ways I can think of that we could use this dynamic but this is the first implementation that came to mind.
^ I'll have what he's having.
+1
+1
It would be cool if NPCs placed them at entrances to their space, because it seems like a smart thing to do.
It would be cool if NPCs placed them at entrances to their space, because it seems like a smart thing to do.
+1
-1 I think it's hilarious that anyone would even consider this a good idea.
I <3 internet sarcasm.
But, this is a really good idea. I never even thought about these kinds of mines, but detonation: Contact? Explain? In a mine like this, no detonation proximity is needed.
But, this is a really good idea. I never even thought about these kinds of mines, but detonation: Contact? Explain? In a mine like this, no detonation proximity is needed.
That's just what it says on l-mines I copied it because the intention is for it to use the same mechanics as an l-mine except it hits all enemies in the field. Yeah that part probably isnt necessary.
I really don't think this needs 550 energy to drop or to be limited to two capacity like the TU mine. We have enough nerfed-out-the-door weapons already.
+1 otherwise to energy drain mines!
+1 otherwise to energy drain mines!
Well its more about whether or not it needs to have any more capacity or use any less energy, the purpose of the mine is to setup an ambush not to deploy on the fly or spam a whole lot of them. You want people to have to think about where they would be best placed not to just spam them all over the place.
I get that, but clearing out mines is trivial. The only way to make it not trivial is to lay an entire mine field.
Nah it's to defend the mines or to anticipate the actions of your attackers well in advance so that you can use the mines in a way that means their vulnerability to attack is redundant.
So for instance you can use them to support a blockade by deploying them at a wormhole and camping the wormhole so that nobody can get past the wormhole because of the drain, but they can't attack the drain mines without dealing with you.
Another scenario is where you know your opponent will be crossing a wormhole, so you deploy the mines on the wormhole and you wait until they cross, once they're through they won't be able to regenerate their battery at all so energy weapons will be useless against the mines and they will have to attack them without energy weapons or flee in cruise thrust, either way the mines have already provided you with the opportunity you were looking for to attack the enemy.
The second scenario works for escorts too, if you want to escort a trade convoy and you have advanced scouts your team can deploy the mines at wormholes along the routes or at specified warp out spots so that your convoy can make a clean escape if they run into problems.
So for instance you can use them to support a blockade by deploying them at a wormhole and camping the wormhole so that nobody can get past the wormhole because of the drain, but they can't attack the drain mines without dealing with you.
Another scenario is where you know your opponent will be crossing a wormhole, so you deploy the mines on the wormhole and you wait until they cross, once they're through they won't be able to regenerate their battery at all so energy weapons will be useless against the mines and they will have to attack them without energy weapons or flee in cruise thrust, either way the mines have already provided you with the opportunity you were looking for to attack the enemy.
The second scenario works for escorts too, if you want to escort a trade convoy and you have advanced scouts your team can deploy the mines at wormholes along the routes or at specified warp out spots so that your convoy can make a clean escape if they run into problems.
+1
I'd have to argue NO on this one. VO currently has way too many navigation bottlenecks as it is. This could easily be abused, allowing for a "grief at a distance" type of game play. If VO ever gets around to having multiple navigational routes between terminii (allowing better decisions for gameplay BTW), this can be revisited.
"If VO ever gets around to having multiple navigational routes between terminii (allowing better decisions for gameplay BTW), this can be revisited."
We already have multiple routes to every location in the game. Try again.
We already have multiple routes to every location in the game. Try again.
Well Keller is a bit of a carebear but he's not an idiot, still it'd be nice if people would take the opportunity to, ya know, write the reasons behind these crazy "OP" or "abuse" claims. Anyway, I wrote a big rebuttal here and then my net cut out, then I thought about it a little more.
He's right in one scenario where you could just spam drain mines on a wormhole out of the back of a trident with a small squad and nobody could kill you without losing faction standing and the wormhole would be inaccessible to traders and whatnot. That's definitely an abuse case that would need to be worked though, but I don't see it as an issue that's difficult to be resolved.
It should definitely be resolved though, because VO has more than enough if not too many navigational routes to every location, tools for effective blockading are an extremely important set of features that we should have, it's part of the core gameplay ideas that make VO fun, we need stuff like this to add to it.
He's right in one scenario where you could just spam drain mines on a wormhole out of the back of a trident with a small squad and nobody could kill you without losing faction standing and the wormhole would be inaccessible to traders and whatnot. That's definitely an abuse case that would need to be worked though, but I don't see it as an issue that's difficult to be resolved.
It should definitely be resolved though, because VO has more than enough if not too many navigational routes to every location, tools for effective blockading are an extremely important set of features that we should have, it's part of the core gameplay ideas that make VO fun, we need stuff like this to add to it.
I think player run blockades would be legitimate tactics. In fact, I'd like to start moving away from the pirate/trader dichotomy and more into actual warfare between groups (complete with logistics, area control, economic control, etc.), making these devices less pirate tools and more war tools. My point however Rin is that there really aren't multiple navigational routes to a lot of places. Gray space for example (and most other systems for that matter) are effectively linear in their WH layout. A hallway with many doors along each wall is still topographically linear, regardless of how many doors there are.
Greyspace is a line, but the universe is made of loops. Between any two systems there are always at least two routes. Sure, one of them might be long or might pass through enemy territory, but it is there.
As for using wide-area mines within nation space, one solution is to simply apply faction penalties to people who place wide-area mines in nation-guarded areas of interest (close proximity to wormholes, stations, etc.).
Another solution is to dispatch bots to clear out the mines in monitored space, similar to what happens around stations. It could be a slower dispatch, giving people a few minutes use of the mines before they begin to be removed.
Anyway, my point is that it's not a big problem.
As for using wide-area mines within nation space, one solution is to simply apply faction penalties to people who place wide-area mines in nation-guarded areas of interest (close proximity to wormholes, stations, etc.).
Another solution is to dispatch bots to clear out the mines in monitored space, similar to what happens around stations. It could be a slower dispatch, giving people a few minutes use of the mines before they begin to be removed.
Anyway, my point is that it's not a big problem.
So Keller, if you think that player run blockades are good, why wouldn't you support having tools like this to make them possible?
I have done a lot to try and move away from the pirate/trader dichotomy, as many people will tell you, but at some point the actual mechanics need to develop along with it. It starts here.
I have done a lot to try and move away from the pirate/trader dichotomy, as many people will tell you, but at some point the actual mechanics need to develop along with it. It starts here.
TRS, my actual position is much more complicated (which I think you get, but Rin hasn't yet) than it seems.
My biggest beef is with navigation. Rin, most navigational routes amount to Right or Left rotations through the universe. That's not having "multiple" routes between systems. As a mathematician that IS linear as defined in an Abelian Ring. Frankly, what I'd like to see would be VO having 100 systems, not 30, with most of them in gray space. There could be some pretty convoluted routes between say Ukari and Edras, but presently you have at best 2. I'd prefer to see something closer to a half dozen; there'd be the 1 or 2 obvious (and efficient routes) which could be blockaded. There'd be the 3-4 longer, lonelier, and much more hazardous routes which allow you around the blockades.
To address what I'm saying, we really need a lot more systems in VO with a much more complicated connectivity map. While I DO support tools like those proposed, I'd rather not see a small group have the ability to shut down VO entirely. The scenario I could envision The attitudes of many people are fragile enough as it is (yeah - attitudes, not egos, though those can be bad enough as it is), I'd worry that VO would start losing players if you created the ability to lock things down so easily. True, the obvious counter to this tactic would be for the rest of the population to clear out the bums, but you and I both know that's not likely to happen. We have a situation of 2 events clearly dependent on one another (blockades vs the desire to remove them through player action), but an online population which is more likely to do one and not the other. While this shouldn't disclude the ability to perform blockades, I really do think navigational options should be addressed first if not simultaneously with the tools to provide blockades. To build the tools but not a better environment in which to execute them is not a good approach. However, given VO's current slow development schedule, what I fear we'd get would be half the solution, then maybe the other half years later after the damage was done.
BTW, guys, thanks for the proper debate. This has been a good conversation. Should all forum debates remain this way.
My biggest beef is with navigation. Rin, most navigational routes amount to Right or Left rotations through the universe. That's not having "multiple" routes between systems. As a mathematician that IS linear as defined in an Abelian Ring. Frankly, what I'd like to see would be VO having 100 systems, not 30, with most of them in gray space. There could be some pretty convoluted routes between say Ukari and Edras, but presently you have at best 2. I'd prefer to see something closer to a half dozen; there'd be the 1 or 2 obvious (and efficient routes) which could be blockaded. There'd be the 3-4 longer, lonelier, and much more hazardous routes which allow you around the blockades.
To address what I'm saying, we really need a lot more systems in VO with a much more complicated connectivity map. While I DO support tools like those proposed, I'd rather not see a small group have the ability to shut down VO entirely. The scenario I could envision The attitudes of many people are fragile enough as it is (yeah - attitudes, not egos, though those can be bad enough as it is), I'd worry that VO would start losing players if you created the ability to lock things down so easily. True, the obvious counter to this tactic would be for the rest of the population to clear out the bums, but you and I both know that's not likely to happen. We have a situation of 2 events clearly dependent on one another (blockades vs the desire to remove them through player action), but an online population which is more likely to do one and not the other. While this shouldn't disclude the ability to perform blockades, I really do think navigational options should be addressed first if not simultaneously with the tools to provide blockades. To build the tools but not a better environment in which to execute them is not a good approach. However, given VO's current slow development schedule, what I fear we'd get would be half the solution, then maybe the other half years later after the damage was done.
BTW, guys, thanks for the proper debate. This has been a good conversation. Should all forum debates remain this way.