Forums » Suggestions
shadow_slicer: Don't get me wrong. I've done alot of thinking about what 'realistic' space combat means, and I think you could do a really interesting game with realistic 'near future' (in the since of the next four or five centuries) space combat. But I don't think it would have really wide appeal because the narrative structures that would draw people into such a game haven't been created yet. Science fiction authors have been rather lax in exploring the territory of 'near space'. Most science fiction stories occur either in the far far future or assume some gigantic leap in man's ability to access space in the relatively near future. In such stories, the civilizations always have 'sufficiently advanced technology' that can accomplish anything with only the most meagre technical explanations. Science fiction movies are notably soft on science and really border on or are fantasy (Star Wars for example). I just don't think that there is anything about a realistic space sim that would really fire the imaginations of anything but a few of us geeky types.
On the other hand the narrative structures for fighter combat are well established and deeply engrained in the culture and consciousness of the public. Fighter pilots are mythic figures and something that average children aspire to be. So its natural to adopt the structures of 'fighter combat' these fanciful settings.
And of course, one of the other problems is in a truly realistic setting, by the time you have the technology to conquer space in even the most limited of fashions, you already have the potential for such vast computing power that you really have to ask the question, 'Just of what use is a human pilot in these situations?' Already there is discussion in the world of professional fighter pilots that the F-22/F-35/Su-47 generation of fighters will be the last ones purpose built as manned air-to-air combatants, and the future lies with increasingly sophisticated unmanned aircraft. Its not even clear that 'fighters' as such won't be obselete by the end of the century, much less by the time we are roaming at will amongst the stars.
On the other hand the narrative structures for fighter combat are well established and deeply engrained in the culture and consciousness of the public. Fighter pilots are mythic figures and something that average children aspire to be. So its natural to adopt the structures of 'fighter combat' these fanciful settings.
And of course, one of the other problems is in a truly realistic setting, by the time you have the technology to conquer space in even the most limited of fashions, you already have the potential for such vast computing power that you really have to ask the question, 'Just of what use is a human pilot in these situations?' Already there is discussion in the world of professional fighter pilots that the F-22/F-35/Su-47 generation of fighters will be the last ones purpose built as manned air-to-air combatants, and the future lies with increasingly sophisticated unmanned aircraft. Its not even clear that 'fighters' as such won't be obselete by the end of the century, much less by the time we are roaming at will amongst the stars.
As was the case with my last started thread I covered ground covered before.. I don't know if this will happen again here, but I hope not.
First off, I really like the physics flight mode. I went from playing Freelancer straight into Vendetta as my next space sim. Freelancer had an ok physics flight mode in it, but I found it quite frustrating, but this aint the place for them complaints. The Vendetta physics flight mode is far superior, but a few tweaks would be nice.
In an earlier post, someone pointed out the problems with keeping a roll going until counteracted, and how difficult it was to correct a roll. I don't want to remove any of the auto-correction done for rotation around the x y and z axis of flight (as much fun as this might be).
The only auto-correction I would like to see removed is from the turbo thrusters. This is more in-lne with true physics, but could be exploited. As a possible deterrant to exploits, the turbo thrusters could be made fuel dependant, making them not rechargeable during flight. If this idea has been rejected in prior versions then ok. :-) I've got another idea to fly by yall that needs a bit more thought.
First off, I really like the physics flight mode. I went from playing Freelancer straight into Vendetta as my next space sim. Freelancer had an ok physics flight mode in it, but I found it quite frustrating, but this aint the place for them complaints. The Vendetta physics flight mode is far superior, but a few tweaks would be nice.
In an earlier post, someone pointed out the problems with keeping a roll going until counteracted, and how difficult it was to correct a roll. I don't want to remove any of the auto-correction done for rotation around the x y and z axis of flight (as much fun as this might be).
The only auto-correction I would like to see removed is from the turbo thrusters. This is more in-lne with true physics, but could be exploited. As a possible deterrant to exploits, the turbo thrusters could be made fuel dependant, making them not rechargeable during flight. If this idea has been rejected in prior versions then ok. :-) I've got another idea to fly by yall that needs a bit more thought.
i don't see what auto-correction is imposed on the turbo... care to elucidate?
as for the idea of non-rechargeable thrusters: it has been brought up, discussed and not implemented.
in my opinion, it has its advantages as well as disadvantages, and there are more of the latter.
longer travels will almost certainly be a huge bore. want to travel from one edge of the galaxy to the other? be bound to your screen for half an hour instead of maybe 15 minutes (imaginatory times here).
if you just barely escaped a pirate, using up your afterburner fuel in the process, and happen to stumble across another, you're screwed. the enemy is almost bound to have a faster and more agile ship than you, and possibly he is better in skill than you. the only option to fighting, running, is taken away from you.
as for the idea of non-rechargeable thrusters: it has been brought up, discussed and not implemented.
in my opinion, it has its advantages as well as disadvantages, and there are more of the latter.
longer travels will almost certainly be a huge bore. want to travel from one edge of the galaxy to the other? be bound to your screen for half an hour instead of maybe 15 minutes (imaginatory times here).
if you just barely escaped a pirate, using up your afterburner fuel in the process, and happen to stumble across another, you're screwed. the enemy is almost bound to have a faster and more agile ship than you, and possibly he is better in skill than you. the only option to fighting, running, is taken away from you.
well, by the laws of physics, unless a force is applied to counteract the forward motion of the thrusters after deactivation, the ship would continue along the given vector at the same speed. Even undr physics mode, after letting off of the tab key, forward momentum slows to the pre-turbo speed, thus implying there is some force acting contrary to the thrust of the ship when turbos are deactivated. Now did I miss something in my physics lectures, or is there some form of braking going on here?
Since non-rechargeable thrusters have been dismissed, that's fine by me. Just thought I'd bring up a minor point with the current physics implimentation.
Since non-rechargeable thrusters have been dismissed, that's fine by me. Just thought I'd bring up a minor point with the current physics implimentation.
"Now did I miss something in my physics lectures,?"
-Yes you did. It is the fact that all the laws of physics applied into the game would make it much less fun to play. It's in the info. part of the site.
-Yes you did. It is the fact that all the laws of physics applied into the game would make it much less fun to play. It's in the info. part of the site.
Lazy magus, lazy...
http://www.guildsoftware.com/ven.flight.model.html
Yarr, the quote ye be looking for hides in the second paragraph which starts with blue words.
http://www.guildsoftware.com/ven.flight.model.html
Yarr, the quote ye be looking for hides in the second paragraph which starts with blue words.
I might be the only one who feels that a physics mode should be as close to real physics as possible. If I am then I'm ok with that, but I do like the idea.
I suspect having not been with the test for as long as yall, I haven't experienced the growing pains, but what the hey, I'm here now. If I can contribute I will.
I suspect having not been with the test for as long as yall, I haven't experienced the growing pains, but what the hey, I'm here now. If I can contribute I will.
"Now did I miss something in my physics lectures,?"
I agree with Magus. You did miss something.
Think of it like star-trek. Here you have a ship that can suddenly and very rapidly accelerate to speeds allowing you to cross large portions of space in minutes. This would imply that most likey your inertia has been removed... either that or dogfighting would flatten you to your seat and make you a pretty bad pilot.
Advanced technology takes care of the intertia problem for space.. no inertia means no speed when the engine stops propelling you...
Physics problem solved.
I agree with Magus. You did miss something.
Think of it like star-trek. Here you have a ship that can suddenly and very rapidly accelerate to speeds allowing you to cross large portions of space in minutes. This would imply that most likey your inertia has been removed... either that or dogfighting would flatten you to your seat and make you a pretty bad pilot.
Advanced technology takes care of the intertia problem for space.. no inertia means no speed when the engine stops propelling you...
Physics problem solved.
...actually, no inertia would mean you would move infinitely fast with minimal thrust, and keep going at that velocity.
Newton's first law of motion (a.k.a. the law of inertia): All objects will continue in a state of uniform rectilinear motion unless acted upon by an outside unbalanced force.
Newton's first law of motion (a.k.a. the law of inertia): All objects will continue in a state of uniform rectilinear motion unless acted upon by an outside unbalanced force.
There is a reason for your ship slowing down: there is a blackhole behind you that only effect your turbo. :)
Well that and space dust in front of you.
Well that and space dust in front of you.
After all the explosions that have happenned throughout the vendetta universe I'm sure there is tons of space dust out there.
to galorin:
you are not the only one who thinks more physically accurate flying models (every ship'd need a personal one) would be nice. i am part of this demographic, but i see the problems involved. and your post was a good one, hopefully my reply didn't seem too hostile. my apologies if it did.
on the law of inertia:
there are so many objects in space (and we usually find ourselves in parts of space that are unusually densely "populated") that there never is a state that could be thought of as not being under the influence of some force (mostly gravitational... roids, planets, stations, other ships).
i'd go with the "technobabble" explanation: your ship's computer and thrusters take care of this problem.
you are not the only one who thinks more physically accurate flying models (every ship'd need a personal one) would be nice. i am part of this demographic, but i see the problems involved. and your post was a good one, hopefully my reply didn't seem too hostile. my apologies if it did.
on the law of inertia:
there are so many objects in space (and we usually find ourselves in parts of space that are unusually densely "populated") that there never is a state that could be thought of as not being under the influence of some force (mostly gravitational... roids, planets, stations, other ships).
i'd go with the "technobabble" explanation: your ship's computer and thrusters take care of this problem.
You may not need tera-flop calculations for normal speeds. But you just know unlimited acceleration is going to have someone try to break the speed of light. Once you approach that speed things get really funky, and if you wanted pure RL physics you would need to account for image warping, elongation of images, time dilation effects, the server trying to keep up with your ship's position, etc. It gets really complicated really fast. Even moreso due to the fact that we don't experimentally know for sure what happens to masses at near light speeds.
To perfectly simulate the physics of the universe in a computer system would require more than tera-flop calculations. It's a complicated universe out there.
To perfectly simulate the physics of the universe in a computer system would require more than tera-flop calculations. It's a complicated universe out there.
hmm a different physics model for every ship, and mapping the gravitational forces of all substantially large objects. Now that'd be nice, but we'd all need to be on the Grid to play Vendetta. Calculations involved there would be.. well pretty intense. Even moreso if they started mapping pulls of medium sized objects and ships.
I would love to be able to use gravitational pull of a moon or small asteroid to get a nifty slingshot effect and go careening into an asteroid, space station, or even another player at incredibly high speeds. If weapon loads are made volatile, that would make for a really nice explosion.
I had some other thoughts involving the pulls of asteroids to help ships hide, but we can let the onboard computer thingy do that for us.
I would love to be able to use gravitational pull of a moon or small asteroid to get a nifty slingshot effect and go careening into an asteroid, space station, or even another player at incredibly high speeds. If weapon loads are made volatile, that would make for a really nice explosion.
I had some other thoughts involving the pulls of asteroids to help ships hide, but we can let the onboard computer thingy do that for us.
I do not like "top speed" limitation. And I also think that physical realism brings more fun into the game. Did anybody play Frontier series? IMHO, it is the best space combat game (though it's graphics is out of date).
I would suggest to remove speed limitation, add fuel limitation, and make very simplistic gravitation model.
And also I would suggest to make a poll on some vendetta related website, where people could vote about adding/changing features.
I would suggest to remove speed limitation, add fuel limitation, and make very simplistic gravitation model.
And also I would suggest to make a poll on some vendetta related website, where people could vote about adding/changing features.
A gravitation model isn't much applicable to vendetta, because there really aren't any objects massive enough to generate noticible acceleration.
to genka:
hm... i'd disagree, but then again i already said i am against the application of RL physics on the Vendetta Test.
on top speed:
the top speed limitation is a logical one. although 400 m/s is pretty slow, it is about exactly what we can cope with. how many players already crash into obstacles, dying in the process?
and about the fule limitation: i said it once, i will say it again, and as often as possible:
being left without fuel at the mercy of a pirate is NOT fun.
try trading, you'll know what i mean and be thankful for every unit of energy you saved for your boosters.
hm... i'd disagree, but then again i already said i am against the application of RL physics on the Vendetta Test.
on top speed:
the top speed limitation is a logical one. although 400 m/s is pretty slow, it is about exactly what we can cope with. how many players already crash into obstacles, dying in the process?
and about the fule limitation: i said it once, i will say it again, and as often as possible:
being left without fuel at the mercy of a pirate is NOT fun.
try trading, you'll know what i mean and be thankful for every unit of energy you saved for your boosters.
to toshiro:
I like trading, agree a "runaway" maneur is very impotant during trading :). So, take care about the fuel in advance. And when things are going too bad (pirates, low fuel), drop your cargo (make ship more light) and save your neck :). This would be fair trading, IMHO.
And could you please detalize, what is logical in top speed limitation?
I like trading, agree a "runaway" maneur is very impotant during trading :). So, take care about the fuel in advance. And when things are going too bad (pirates, low fuel), drop your cargo (make ship more light) and save your neck :). This would be fair trading, IMHO.
And could you please detalize, what is logical in top speed limitation?
I'm a bit shaky on this, but I have been under the impression that an engine can not continue to accelerate infinitely. Current technology allows for ion engines, and these can go no faster forward than the ions can come out the ship's backside. I believe the same holds true for solid fuel, liquid fuel, and other forms of conventional propulsion, possibly even unconventional propulsion.
I am opposed to removing the speed cap. The ships would quickly become uncontrollable for most players. Yeah, 400 m/s is slow when going from one wormhole to another, but it's pretty darn fast when there's an asteroid in your path or on approach to a station.
My original idea was for a ship that could travel in a straight line quickly, for an extended period of time. Under this model, a ship would only need enough fuel to get up to speed, but not to maintain this speed. At such high speeds the ship would be very sluggish responding to any attempted change in direction (call it computer saving pilot from turning into mush if you like) Perhaps stating this better would have been more appropriate. It's been a good discussion thus far though.
I am opposed to removing the speed cap. The ships would quickly become uncontrollable for most players. Yeah, 400 m/s is slow when going from one wormhole to another, but it's pretty darn fast when there's an asteroid in your path or on approach to a station.
My original idea was for a ship that could travel in a straight line quickly, for an extended period of time. Under this model, a ship would only need enough fuel to get up to speed, but not to maintain this speed. At such high speeds the ship would be very sluggish responding to any attempted change in direction (call it computer saving pilot from turning into mush if you like) Perhaps stating this better would have been more appropriate. It's been a good discussion thus far though.
"And could you please detalize, what is logical in top speed limitation?"
-Go into the S10 station, buy a vulture, undock and run into the wall as fast as you can while still invulnerable. If you do it right you'll go at over 1000 m/s (assuming they have not fixed the bug yet.) Now tell me how logical it would be to be flying around the galaxy at that speed? You can hardly see anything. You're going way too fast to react to the things in front of you. It just isn't reasonable. To make no mention of the limitations of the engine in trying to simulate super-high velocities. There are tera-flop supercomputers that strive to simulate that sort of thing. It's unfair to expect the devs to condense it into a game engine that's designed to run on your PIII or G3 processors.
I think the reason people want higher speeds is due to the time consuming nature of traversing long distances. I felt the same way when I had started. It's really hard to make money while you're trying to fly around in your EC-88 and your turbo dies on you in 30 seconds or less. But once you get used to it, believe me, you'll be grateful for the time delay in travel while you're trying to cap a flag or evade a pirate. Trading is still time consuming, no doubt about that, but you have to pay your dues before you can have fun. Some MMORPGs force you to creep and jack up your exp. Vendetta expects you to trade. It's time consuming, it's boring, it can be frustrating, but it's something you gotta do.
That being said, I think some of you might not mind the speed limits so much if there was an autopilot feature where you can set your paths through sectors and your ship automatically goes at the maximum average velocity in a straight line path (avoiding obstacles of course) from wormhole to wormhole while automatically displaying the names of all the potential hostiles as they enter radar range and giving a proximity alert whenever a hostile (NPC or human) is within a specified range and headed in an intercept course. That way you could trade on autopilot and still not get bored out of your minds constantly tapping the turbo button. After all, if you aren't doing anything exciting, you might as well be able to chat, right? Trading doesn't give you that option at the moment, but I have a feeling it will be implemented as the game goes on.
-Go into the S10 station, buy a vulture, undock and run into the wall as fast as you can while still invulnerable. If you do it right you'll go at over 1000 m/s (assuming they have not fixed the bug yet.) Now tell me how logical it would be to be flying around the galaxy at that speed? You can hardly see anything. You're going way too fast to react to the things in front of you. It just isn't reasonable. To make no mention of the limitations of the engine in trying to simulate super-high velocities. There are tera-flop supercomputers that strive to simulate that sort of thing. It's unfair to expect the devs to condense it into a game engine that's designed to run on your PIII or G3 processors.
I think the reason people want higher speeds is due to the time consuming nature of traversing long distances. I felt the same way when I had started. It's really hard to make money while you're trying to fly around in your EC-88 and your turbo dies on you in 30 seconds or less. But once you get used to it, believe me, you'll be grateful for the time delay in travel while you're trying to cap a flag or evade a pirate. Trading is still time consuming, no doubt about that, but you have to pay your dues before you can have fun. Some MMORPGs force you to creep and jack up your exp. Vendetta expects you to trade. It's time consuming, it's boring, it can be frustrating, but it's something you gotta do.
That being said, I think some of you might not mind the speed limits so much if there was an autopilot feature where you can set your paths through sectors and your ship automatically goes at the maximum average velocity in a straight line path (avoiding obstacles of course) from wormhole to wormhole while automatically displaying the names of all the potential hostiles as they enter radar range and giving a proximity alert whenever a hostile (NPC or human) is within a specified range and headed in an intercept course. That way you could trade on autopilot and still not get bored out of your minds constantly tapping the turbo button. After all, if you aren't doing anything exciting, you might as well be able to chat, right? Trading doesn't give you that option at the moment, but I have a feeling it will be implemented as the game goes on.