Forums » Suggestions
Provide visibility to enhancements and changes players are asking for
Summary
Provide visibility to enhancements and changes players are asking for
The Visibility
Provide a way for subscribers to see:
1. The planned changes.
2. Changes which are under consideration.
3. The target date of delivering planned changes...even if it is 2 years from now.
4. Rejected suggestions that don't fit Incarnate's vision of the game so we can stop discussing them.
This doesn't have to be anything elaborate. This could be a text file or a spreadsheet. This could be a page on the website.
This doesn't even have to pull away from developer resources as this could be managed by an offshore resource working part-time hours for minimal pay.
A better implementation would be a way for players to vote on and help fund changes they want to see, but I'm only asking for bare-minimum visibility.
Current Problem
Currently, a suggestion gets made on the forums and there is a chance Incarnate says "I'm not opposed to...." to which we debate at length. If we're lucky, some flavor of the request gets implemented quickly. If we're unlucky, it never gets implemented, or there is no developer feedback and the discussion dies for another 6 months until somebody mentions the suggestion again and we repeat the cycle.
Visibility is critical to maintain engagement. Your subscribers are not your only stakeholders, but they are a primary stakeholder. Without visibility you are losing engagement and if you are lucky they tell you why they leave. In most cases, they probably just fade off into the sunset to be prior subscribers.
Final Thoughts
This topic....like many others....has been beaten to death, but this is my final attempt at driving the point home.
For years I have been a strong proponent of supporting the game even though support for my chosen play-style is largely missing from current game mechanics.
Even during my periods of absence I have continued my support and encouraged others to do the same because the support helps the stability of Guild Software and in turn should help provide the stability necessary for game-play enhancements that "end-game" players have been asking for for years.
A quick search of PayPal transactions over the last 3 years shows 37 payments of $9.99 to Guild Software. I have been willing to put my money where my mouth is. But I can't continue to do so until there is at least some visibility that indicates game-play changes are taken seriously or even planned.
Provide visibility to enhancements and changes players are asking for
The Visibility
Provide a way for subscribers to see:
1. The planned changes.
2. Changes which are under consideration.
3. The target date of delivering planned changes...even if it is 2 years from now.
4. Rejected suggestions that don't fit Incarnate's vision of the game so we can stop discussing them.
This doesn't have to be anything elaborate. This could be a text file or a spreadsheet. This could be a page on the website.
This doesn't even have to pull away from developer resources as this could be managed by an offshore resource working part-time hours for minimal pay.
A better implementation would be a way for players to vote on and help fund changes they want to see, but I'm only asking for bare-minimum visibility.
Current Problem
Currently, a suggestion gets made on the forums and there is a chance Incarnate says "I'm not opposed to...." to which we debate at length. If we're lucky, some flavor of the request gets implemented quickly. If we're unlucky, it never gets implemented, or there is no developer feedback and the discussion dies for another 6 months until somebody mentions the suggestion again and we repeat the cycle.
Visibility is critical to maintain engagement. Your subscribers are not your only stakeholders, but they are a primary stakeholder. Without visibility you are losing engagement and if you are lucky they tell you why they leave. In most cases, they probably just fade off into the sunset to be prior subscribers.
Final Thoughts
This topic....like many others....has been beaten to death, but this is my final attempt at driving the point home.
For years I have been a strong proponent of supporting the game even though support for my chosen play-style is largely missing from current game mechanics.
Even during my periods of absence I have continued my support and encouraged others to do the same because the support helps the stability of Guild Software and in turn should help provide the stability necessary for game-play enhancements that "end-game" players have been asking for for years.
A quick search of PayPal transactions over the last 3 years shows 37 payments of $9.99 to Guild Software. I have been willing to put my money where my mouth is. But I can't continue to do so until there is at least some visibility that indicates game-play changes are taken seriously or even planned.
tl;dr: "Please show me you love me, devs! I know you've been there for me for years and years, killing yourselves to keep this struggling niche game alive, but I'm worried you don't really love me since you don't jump when I say jump, so you'd better get out the jump-rope or else find somebody else to pay for your ramen with their piddling $10/month!"
(In fact, supplying Guild Software a pure-ramen diet would probably cost closer to $60/month, though I'm not factoring in any bulk discounts that may exist when buying the stuff wholesale.)
(In fact, supplying Guild Software a pure-ramen diet would probably cost closer to $60/month, though I'm not factoring in any bulk discounts that may exist when buying the stuff wholesale.)
Better TLDR:
Honey, I know you spend time working all night at the factory, but when you come home we would like you to spend some time talking with the family. Don't go downstairs and drink yourself into a stupor by yourself every night. That isn't a relationship. We love you, but you have to show us that you love us and that we're more than somebody that you've been with forever while we wait for your liver to fail and collect the insurance money.
Honey, I know you spend time working all night at the factory, but when you come home we would like you to spend some time talking with the family. Don't go downstairs and drink yourself into a stupor by yourself every night. That isn't a relationship. We love you, but you have to show us that you love us and that we're more than somebody that you've been with forever while we wait for your liver to fail and collect the insurance money.
There are a couple of projects intended to mitigate many of these issues, but every time they makes some progress.. things tends to stall after a short period of time due to some major demanding new issue that requires our immediate attention (and then drags on for months longer than expected).
I appreciate where you're coming from, I'm highly aware of the need to mitigate and improve this, and I have specific goals in mind. But I cannot promise an immediate solution. I don't expect these words to keep anyone around, or subscribed, but they are honest..
Older players can testify to the existence of the old "Design Wiki" which tried to serve these goals, which then became deprecated and was meant to be replaced with our internal Trac system, which then our developers wouldn't use.. which devalued it considerably. More recently, I've been reviving this internally, with some success, but I'm not going to push anything public until I think it's reasonably helpful and remotely accurate.
Furthermore, we will not post target dates: unexpected opportunities and problems keep causing development to happen out-of-order. My best-case goal just is to post something that documents undated goals, and perhaps occasional priorities, so people can still see (and reference) what is "in the pipeline". I am not going to say how long that pipeline may be, I've just gotten burned out on being so wrong all the time (and, later, getting beaten up by embittered players as a result). But, documented goals are still helpful.
Lastly, I do shut down suggestions that are completely contrary to my goals. It doesn't happen very often, because I am still interested in those are different from what I have been thinking, and the merits and value of why people would want that (whatever "that" may be).
The only cases where things get implemented quickly, is where the change is super trivial to do, has near-zero controversy or is happens to be very obviously beneficial (to me). Most of the stuff we talk about on here is much more involved than that.
This doesn't even have to pull away from developer resources as this could be managed by an offshore resource working part-time hours for minimal pay.
No.. it couldn't. I don't think you appreciate the magnitude of what you're requesting. Or perhaps you haven't worked on a project quite like this. But the degree of documentation, unkeep, and on-going communication is fairly considerable. At least for this to be of any real value to a userbase. Otherwise it goes stale, out of date, and quickly becomes wrong.. like the old Design Wiki.
Anyway, I really appreciate the value of anyone who's willing to contribute funds over a long period of time to development of a project, especially considering the lack of any clear notion of the intended development path. I want to improve this situation, but I don't expect to "fix" it. Game development is one of the most chaotic software development cycles in existence, and our situation is even more unpredictable than most game companies.
So, the best I can say is..: It is a current goal, I'd like to see some of this come to fruition before long, and I appreciate your patience and support for.. however long you choose to give it to us? But I can't promise anything more definitive than that at present.
I appreciate where you're coming from, I'm highly aware of the need to mitigate and improve this, and I have specific goals in mind. But I cannot promise an immediate solution. I don't expect these words to keep anyone around, or subscribed, but they are honest..
Older players can testify to the existence of the old "Design Wiki" which tried to serve these goals, which then became deprecated and was meant to be replaced with our internal Trac system, which then our developers wouldn't use.. which devalued it considerably. More recently, I've been reviving this internally, with some success, but I'm not going to push anything public until I think it's reasonably helpful and remotely accurate.
Furthermore, we will not post target dates: unexpected opportunities and problems keep causing development to happen out-of-order. My best-case goal just is to post something that documents undated goals, and perhaps occasional priorities, so people can still see (and reference) what is "in the pipeline". I am not going to say how long that pipeline may be, I've just gotten burned out on being so wrong all the time (and, later, getting beaten up by embittered players as a result). But, documented goals are still helpful.
Lastly, I do shut down suggestions that are completely contrary to my goals. It doesn't happen very often, because I am still interested in those are different from what I have been thinking, and the merits and value of why people would want that (whatever "that" may be).
The only cases where things get implemented quickly, is where the change is super trivial to do, has near-zero controversy or is happens to be very obviously beneficial (to me). Most of the stuff we talk about on here is much more involved than that.
This doesn't even have to pull away from developer resources as this could be managed by an offshore resource working part-time hours for minimal pay.
No.. it couldn't. I don't think you appreciate the magnitude of what you're requesting. Or perhaps you haven't worked on a project quite like this. But the degree of documentation, unkeep, and on-going communication is fairly considerable. At least for this to be of any real value to a userbase. Otherwise it goes stale, out of date, and quickly becomes wrong.. like the old Design Wiki.
Anyway, I really appreciate the value of anyone who's willing to contribute funds over a long period of time to development of a project, especially considering the lack of any clear notion of the intended development path. I want to improve this situation, but I don't expect to "fix" it. Game development is one of the most chaotic software development cycles in existence, and our situation is even more unpredictable than most game companies.
So, the best I can say is..: It is a current goal, I'd like to see some of this come to fruition before long, and I appreciate your patience and support for.. however long you choose to give it to us? But I can't promise anything more definitive than that at present.
I'm in a similar boat as Savet. After 12 years of playing this game you begin to feel like a stakeholder who'd like a bit of transparency. I don't want to be beating a drum about the aged interface if nothing will be done about it. I'd hate to see VO go into Steam with the interface being the dog's breakfast that it is. So i can shut about the interface, if you are not planning to do something about it, or if you are, i can get out my pom-poms and offer whatever support i can.
I've written really lengthy responses to your UI-feedback threads, saying how useful and interesting I consider them to be. I've gone pretty far out of my way to communicate that I think your feedback has value.
But, the underlying issue here is that concept you're calling "transparency", which really amounts to "when will my feedback and personal priority issues be addressed in the game?" And the blunt answer to that is "I don't know".
Like I told Savet, I am working on a way to display some relative priority. But an absolute or fixed schedule is unlikely to ever happen. Too much "stuff" happens, and we have to be reactive to changing circumstances in a rapidly evolving industry. It's why we're still here.
All of that leaves player frustration with lack of progress in areas that someone considers "most-important", and I empathize with that; but beyond my existing "mitigation" goals, I don't have a solution.
So, you can choose take me at my word that we'll eventually get to doing the UI stuff, and that I think the feedback or useful. That's all I can offer at present.
But, the underlying issue here is that concept you're calling "transparency", which really amounts to "when will my feedback and personal priority issues be addressed in the game?" And the blunt answer to that is "I don't know".
Like I told Savet, I am working on a way to display some relative priority. But an absolute or fixed schedule is unlikely to ever happen. Too much "stuff" happens, and we have to be reactive to changing circumstances in a rapidly evolving industry. It's why we're still here.
All of that leaves player frustration with lack of progress in areas that someone considers "most-important", and I empathize with that; but beyond my existing "mitigation" goals, I don't have a solution.
So, you can choose take me at my word that we'll eventually get to doing the UI stuff, and that I think the feedback or useful. That's all I can offer at present.
Well you have been promising that dev trak thing since Shape used to play. So no offence or anything, and I'm not "making things up", but I will not be holding my breath. And do you know what? I've stopped caring. I think I'm just going to play the game.
Also I was not "making things up" in the other thread either, care to explain the engine behind the website if I am so wrong?
Also I was not "making things up" in the other thread either, care to explain the engine behind the website if I am so wrong?
Well you have been promising that dev trak thing since Shape used to play. So no offence or anything, and I'm not "making things up", but I will not be holding my breath.
That's my whole point, yes. You can either take it on faith that I'm still trying to add some of this stuff, or not have faith and stop contributing. I explained part of the earlier problem we had with Trac above (to some extent, several people were unwilling to keep it updated, but one dev in particular just strongly refused to use the Trac system.. and he isn't around anymore, so that's simpler).
Ultimately, anything that goes wrong with VO's development is my fault, and I accept that responsibility of leadership. But, some situations are outside my control or.. abilities, and at the same time it would be even more destructive for me to air internal (or inter-company) issues publicly, so I just bear the public brunt of things that.. are sometimes forced on me by others (employees, other large companies, non-disclosure agreements, lawsuit threats, whatever). Such is life. But keep that in mind when you're exfoliating your bitterness.
Also I was not "making things up" in the other thread either, care to explain the engine behind the website if I am so wrong?
Seriously? You want to hijack this thread to talk about my response on Bugs? Everything you posted was inaccurate. The website is not written in C at all (and never has been), it's written in Lua and is actually quite friendly and easy to update. Fixing the post-ordering in Reply would probably just be a database query change, but it just hasn't been a priority compared to making money (although it annoys me too).
Basically, you posted assumption as fact, and you've done this before a number of times (I don't have a catalog of past threads to link to, but it's been a pattern). The Bugs thread is actually the definition of "making stuff up". No developer ever told you we had a website written in C/C++. You just "decided" that was true, and then pushed that not-trueness on as an explanation to another player in a forum that is dedicated to debugging problems (and factual data). It was not that big of a deal, in the case in point, but you keep doing this, which is troublesome. Please stop representing-assumptions-as-facts, and I'll stop calling you out for making things up.
Anyway, this thread seems to have conveyed its core message, and is now going off the rails, so I'm going to start wrapping this up.
1) People want better information on what priorities are coming and what changes/ideas are being adopted by the developers. I am actively working towards solving that, and have been for roughly a little over a year, but it takes time to re-train a development team.
2) People want to know exactly when changes are going to ship. And that's basically never going to happen. General priorities and ticket-integration is the best I can realistically offer, which is why we're working on that.
3) People want more updates and improved audience engagement. I couldn't agree more. One of our tools here is the newsletter, which I wanted to start pushing much more often this year. Then, early this year, our integrated mailing list provider decided to suddenly change their pricing model and drive our prospective costs per newsletter up by a massive degree (20x? I forget. Prohibitively). So, we had to stop sending out newsletters entirely. Which sucked. Ray has been working on switching us over to Amazon SES for awhile, but there's a big development cost on integrating with these providers (and a lot of testing), and I was unable to spare the developer time until very recently.
I plan the best that I can, and I'm aware that it's highly flawed. All game development is difficult to predict, which is why experienced developers with teams of hundreds will still go years past original launch dates. We are no different, but our tiny team, large-scale (online) game and breadth of platforms makes this even more challenging. We are a product with a complexity similar to WoW (and all our own technology), but available across many more platforms to keep making ends meet (because we have no marketing budget), and a dev-team of only three people. As far as I know, we are unique in the world. Please keep this in mind.
I was also a lot more naively optimistic in the earlier years, which is my blown-promises back then were on bigger things like "Universe expansion! Exploration!" and now they tend to be on "Fixing the stupid forum-post ordering on Reply". I'm a lot more reluctant to post goals, because I hate being wrong on them, and I know how it upsets people when we miss them. But, at the same time, you want to see more goals and have a more concrete idea of what's going on and what's coming (as much as is possible). I am trying to accomplish this.
That's my whole point, yes. You can either take it on faith that I'm still trying to add some of this stuff, or not have faith and stop contributing. I explained part of the earlier problem we had with Trac above (to some extent, several people were unwilling to keep it updated, but one dev in particular just strongly refused to use the Trac system.. and he isn't around anymore, so that's simpler).
Ultimately, anything that goes wrong with VO's development is my fault, and I accept that responsibility of leadership. But, some situations are outside my control or.. abilities, and at the same time it would be even more destructive for me to air internal (or inter-company) issues publicly, so I just bear the public brunt of things that.. are sometimes forced on me by others (employees, other large companies, non-disclosure agreements, lawsuit threats, whatever). Such is life. But keep that in mind when you're exfoliating your bitterness.
Also I was not "making things up" in the other thread either, care to explain the engine behind the website if I am so wrong?
Seriously? You want to hijack this thread to talk about my response on Bugs? Everything you posted was inaccurate. The website is not written in C at all (and never has been), it's written in Lua and is actually quite friendly and easy to update. Fixing the post-ordering in Reply would probably just be a database query change, but it just hasn't been a priority compared to making money (although it annoys me too).
Basically, you posted assumption as fact, and you've done this before a number of times (I don't have a catalog of past threads to link to, but it's been a pattern). The Bugs thread is actually the definition of "making stuff up". No developer ever told you we had a website written in C/C++. You just "decided" that was true, and then pushed that not-trueness on as an explanation to another player in a forum that is dedicated to debugging problems (and factual data). It was not that big of a deal, in the case in point, but you keep doing this, which is troublesome. Please stop representing-assumptions-as-facts, and I'll stop calling you out for making things up.
Anyway, this thread seems to have conveyed its core message, and is now going off the rails, so I'm going to start wrapping this up.
1) People want better information on what priorities are coming and what changes/ideas are being adopted by the developers. I am actively working towards solving that, and have been for roughly a little over a year, but it takes time to re-train a development team.
2) People want to know exactly when changes are going to ship. And that's basically never going to happen. General priorities and ticket-integration is the best I can realistically offer, which is why we're working on that.
3) People want more updates and improved audience engagement. I couldn't agree more. One of our tools here is the newsletter, which I wanted to start pushing much more often this year. Then, early this year, our integrated mailing list provider decided to suddenly change their pricing model and drive our prospective costs per newsletter up by a massive degree (20x? I forget. Prohibitively). So, we had to stop sending out newsletters entirely. Which sucked. Ray has been working on switching us over to Amazon SES for awhile, but there's a big development cost on integrating with these providers (and a lot of testing), and I was unable to spare the developer time until very recently.
I plan the best that I can, and I'm aware that it's highly flawed. All game development is difficult to predict, which is why experienced developers with teams of hundreds will still go years past original launch dates. We are no different, but our tiny team, large-scale (online) game and breadth of platforms makes this even more challenging. We are a product with a complexity similar to WoW (and all our own technology), but available across many more platforms to keep making ends meet (because we have no marketing budget), and a dev-team of only three people. As far as I know, we are unique in the world. Please keep this in mind.
I was also a lot more naively optimistic in the earlier years, which is my blown-promises back then were on bigger things like "Universe expansion! Exploration!" and now they tend to be on "Fixing the stupid forum-post ordering on Reply". I'm a lot more reluctant to post goals, because I hate being wrong on them, and I know how it upsets people when we miss them. But, at the same time, you want to see more goals and have a more concrete idea of what's going on and what's coming (as much as is possible). I am trying to accomplish this.