Forums » Suggestions
As a counter/further to -> https://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/33928/
Maybe even look to raise the lite cap a bit further in future as new content is given, but never give them the ability to manufacture capships or have access to the top tier ships.
"But Yoda" I hear you say, "1 level will not make much difference, will it?" - Sure it will! Right now, there is simply no reason for a mobile/TV/VR user to sub at all if they are playing on a phone alone. 5/5/5/5/5 also grants access to the following:
Behemoth (Corvus only)
Corvus Marauder
Sunflare Rockets (Corvus only)
Gauss/better neuts and positrons (Without going to gray)
The ability to take the Capship Manu mission(s)
This last one, although it does give these .99c store users the ability to manufacture capship parts, it does not actually give them access to move them all to actually build a ship. This could actually create a "thing for newbs to do" in making the smaller parts for full subbers, and even making parts for themselves! So maybe one day they'll move up to the full subs we all love and actually finish off the ship. They would have to sub after they build it to be able to still use it, and would have to sub to be able to undock with the larger parts (thus limiting the lite-market to the sub 120cu bits) so I really do not see it as a big problem.
inb4no - 100,000 99c users are better than 500 $9.99 users, especially if they have a reason to also become $9.99 users, no matter how you twist the math. Plus people are more likely to set up a reoccurring 0.99c sub and forget about it, even if they quit.
Also never raise the licences for F2P, in-fact cut em down to 3/3/3/3/3! Or don't, it is just like, my opinion man.
Maybe even look to raise the lite cap a bit further in future as new content is given, but never give them the ability to manufacture capships or have access to the top tier ships.
"But Yoda" I hear you say, "1 level will not make much difference, will it?" - Sure it will! Right now, there is simply no reason for a mobile/TV/VR user to sub at all if they are playing on a phone alone. 5/5/5/5/5 also grants access to the following:
Behemoth (Corvus only)
Corvus Marauder
Sunflare Rockets (Corvus only)
Gauss/better neuts and positrons (Without going to gray)
The ability to take the Capship Manu mission(s)
This last one, although it does give these .99c store users the ability to manufacture capship parts, it does not actually give them access to move them all to actually build a ship. This could actually create a "thing for newbs to do" in making the smaller parts for full subbers, and even making parts for themselves! So maybe one day they'll move up to the full subs we all love and actually finish off the ship. They would have to sub after they build it to be able to still use it, and would have to sub to be able to undock with the larger parts (thus limiting the lite-market to the sub 120cu bits) so I really do not see it as a big problem.
inb4no - 100,000 99c users are better than 500 $9.99 users, especially if they have a reason to also become $9.99 users, no matter how you twist the math. Plus people are more likely to set up a reoccurring 0.99c sub and forget about it, even if they quit.
Also never raise the licences for F2P, in-fact cut em down to 3/3/3/3/3! Or don't, it is just like, my opinion man.
Part of the conundrum is the usage of the term "F2P" if there's ever a level cap or pay-wall of any kind, no matter how small or far-off.
Any concept of "Trial" or limitation is strongly disliked. The mobile customer is expecting a fully F2P title that basically has lots of psychological tuning to monetize people as much as possible through other means (wheels of fortune, time-vs-money tradeoffs, but never paywalls).
Basically, we get periodic one-star reviews on Android just because of people reading the idea of level caps and pay-walls (usually from in-game chat), not even actually playing enough to encounter the issue. There's basically a philosophical issue with any cap or paywall being "pay-to-win" and then therefore we are evil and it isn't worth investing any time in our game (to roughly paraphrase the argument). This happens.. frequently enough to be annoying, and impact our star-rating. Star-rating then drives other factors, like whether Google will "Feature" you.
I have no problem with trying to convert more people to Lite subs, it's a goal of mine as well. But I'm still trying to fight a perception problem, and find the right balance for everyone (and our own revenue stability).
Any concept of "Trial" or limitation is strongly disliked. The mobile customer is expecting a fully F2P title that basically has lots of psychological tuning to monetize people as much as possible through other means (wheels of fortune, time-vs-money tradeoffs, but never paywalls).
Basically, we get periodic one-star reviews on Android just because of people reading the idea of level caps and pay-walls (usually from in-game chat), not even actually playing enough to encounter the issue. There's basically a philosophical issue with any cap or paywall being "pay-to-win" and then therefore we are evil and it isn't worth investing any time in our game (to roughly paraphrase the argument). This happens.. frequently enough to be annoying, and impact our star-rating. Star-rating then drives other factors, like whether Google will "Feature" you.
I have no problem with trying to convert more people to Lite subs, it's a goal of mine as well. But I'm still trying to fight a perception problem, and find the right balance for everyone (and our own revenue stability).
Please make it 5/5/5/5/5
The crytal limit is already a pain.
The crytal limit is already a pain.
Remove crystals altogether and use them for microtransactions like firewasp.
Blaqk - remove crystals and use crystals to purchase liveries? perhaps "Remove crystals from standard item purchase, and add more liveries for new pilots that f2p must buy with crystals"?
I'm totally for new liveries, and will quickly ring up purchases for cash-only ones if they ever get added, but didnt Incarnate say the livery system wasnt working exactly right?
Crystals are a pain, but how else would you further entice new pilots to sub? As it is, I'm just glad there is only one type of crystal, instead of "Use <colour> crystal to purchase x style of weapon!"
I'm totally for new liveries, and will quickly ring up purchases for cash-only ones if they ever get added, but didnt Incarnate say the livery system wasnt working exactly right?
Crystals are a pain, but how else would you further entice new pilots to sub? As it is, I'm just glad there is only one type of crystal, instead of "Use <colour> crystal to purchase x style of weapon!"
I think VO is enticing enough, players just don't have a real path to success unless they pay to play pc.
Being limited to the amount of crystals you can get per X time for instance does nobody any good, meanwhile my account has never seen a crystal before. It's all very confusing and I just feel like if everyone used credits instead of a dual system of currency to purchase things that matter until whatever level cap you decide this would all be a lot simpler.
Crystals shouldn't be used as a way to limit what f2p can do, yoda is on to something about "giving them something to do" since clearly they can't fight on mobile.
Being limited to the amount of crystals you can get per X time for instance does nobody any good, meanwhile my account has never seen a crystal before. It's all very confusing and I just feel like if everyone used credits instead of a dual system of currency to purchase things that matter until whatever level cap you decide this would all be a lot simpler.
Crystals shouldn't be used as a way to limit what f2p can do, yoda is on to something about "giving them something to do" since clearly they can't fight on mobile.
Using credits as a purchasable currency would be a terrible idea. It might seem simpler, but the game economy has never been stable enough to support that. I would have to do a full credit-reset of all existing accounts, for starters.
Even EVE has problems doing that, and their economy is a lot more fully realized and robust than ours.
The entire point of a secondary currency is to keep it free of dynamic gameplay ramifications. It's less "exciting" and "uncertain", but also less likely to put you out of business because someone exploits a trade-route and blows up the economy.
Yes, it's a hassle that there's a daily limit on crystal, but that's the entire point of driving people towards crystal purchase. Plus, it was a brake on making sure there wasn't an exploitative way to generate stupid amounts of crystal. We can always tweak the limits people can earn per day, and different means of earning, but it has to be balanced against how crystal is being spent (which boils down to a lot of careful analysis of analytics).
Anyway, look, if you guys want to read up on how F2P economies actually work, that's fine, but otherwise the commentary here isn't that useful to me. I'd suggest starting with some basics, like (from a quick google):
https://www.gamesparks.com/blog/looking-at-in-game-currencies/
https://techcrunch.com/2015/08/05/how-to-build-a-smart-game-economy/
http://www.gameanalytics.com/blog/game-economies-five-mistakes-to-avoid.html
There are good reasons to have two currencies. We simply need to invest a lot more time into tweaking and balancing the system we have, along with what we offer to F2P users and what's available to buy. We haven't had the time to invest into that, so the system is a bit rough right now, but that doesn't mean we should ditch it and go for something that's almost certainly worse.
It's also quite challenging to go from premium to F2P in terms of fundamental gameplay, we didn't choose to build around a simple "loop" mechanic that people keep coming back to do over and over again, which is how most of the successful big shops are doing things. But I still think there's a lot we can do with what we have, and maintain the fundamental character of VO.
Even EVE has problems doing that, and their economy is a lot more fully realized and robust than ours.
The entire point of a secondary currency is to keep it free of dynamic gameplay ramifications. It's less "exciting" and "uncertain", but also less likely to put you out of business because someone exploits a trade-route and blows up the economy.
Yes, it's a hassle that there's a daily limit on crystal, but that's the entire point of driving people towards crystal purchase. Plus, it was a brake on making sure there wasn't an exploitative way to generate stupid amounts of crystal. We can always tweak the limits people can earn per day, and different means of earning, but it has to be balanced against how crystal is being spent (which boils down to a lot of careful analysis of analytics).
Anyway, look, if you guys want to read up on how F2P economies actually work, that's fine, but otherwise the commentary here isn't that useful to me. I'd suggest starting with some basics, like (from a quick google):
https://www.gamesparks.com/blog/looking-at-in-game-currencies/
https://techcrunch.com/2015/08/05/how-to-build-a-smart-game-economy/
http://www.gameanalytics.com/blog/game-economies-five-mistakes-to-avoid.html
There are good reasons to have two currencies. We simply need to invest a lot more time into tweaking and balancing the system we have, along with what we offer to F2P users and what's available to buy. We haven't had the time to invest into that, so the system is a bit rough right now, but that doesn't mean we should ditch it and go for something that's almost certainly worse.
It's also quite challenging to go from premium to F2P in terms of fundamental gameplay, we didn't choose to build around a simple "loop" mechanic that people keep coming back to do over and over again, which is how most of the successful big shops are doing things. But I still think there's a lot we can do with what we have, and maintain the fundamental character of VO.
I'd still say it is worth a shot, I do get the pay2win argument too, but I really do think there is more to it than that and you are over-simplifying things. People are hard work overall, and you can never please everyone all the time, best you can aim for is to please some of them some of the time. I know from experience in-game that some F2P'ers have actually bought the lite sub, thinking that they would get a bit more of an experience on mobile for the 0.99c they have paid, and are a little bit annoyed that all they get is access to the game on PC.
Adding other tiers, like the $5 one suggested might bring more cries of p2w, but modifying an existing tier for the better could only be (slightly) positive right? Anywho, was just an idea. I'll bump it again this time next year ;)
Adding other tiers, like the $5 one suggested might bring more cries of p2w, but modifying an existing tier for the better could only be (slightly) positive right? Anywho, was just an idea. I'll bump it again this time next year ;)
Oh, new pilots complaining about the lite sub, ive seen a few of those. Doesnt lite subscription tell them what its for? They should learn to read.
I don't want credits to be purchasable...
I just want crystals to be re-implemented as a micro-transaction ONLY currency, and not to be generated any other way than by paying real money for them.
Understand now?
I just want crystals to be re-implemented as a micro-transaction ONLY currency, and not to be generated any other way than by paying real money for them.
Understand now?
Mi5: Then that stops being free to play, and becomes pay to win, and everyone hates us. The most fundamental principle of free-to-play is a "time-vs-money" tradeoff, where people can either grind, or pay money to alleviate grind. So any serious secondary currency has to have some kind of free methodology of acquisition.
Check out those articles I linked above.. or basically anything else written on the psychology of F2P. It's very baked into the expectation of F2P users now.
As a historical point, when we first did a free-access implementation on Android, it was without a currency, simply requiring direct micro-transactions for ships and content (buying them directly, rather than buying/grinding crystals to then use to buy stuff). It worked ok in some ways, but we got a lot of pay-to-win flack and negative reviews, which is part of what drove us to the current situation.
Yoda: I don't disagree with the general notion of adding more benefits to Lite subs, I've been planning that for some time.
Check out those articles I linked above.. or basically anything else written on the psychology of F2P. It's very baked into the expectation of F2P users now.
As a historical point, when we first did a free-access implementation on Android, it was without a currency, simply requiring direct micro-transactions for ships and content (buying them directly, rather than buying/grinding crystals to then use to buy stuff). It worked ok in some ways, but we got a lot of pay-to-win flack and negative reviews, which is part of what drove us to the current situation.
Yoda: I don't disagree with the general notion of adding more benefits to Lite subs, I've been planning that for some time.
How do visual changes give people an edge? Micro-transactions don't have to break the game.
A perfect VO would have crystals used ONLY for purchasing liveries, and other assorted VISUAL upgrades.
That way f2p/lite/premium all use credits as their main currency for everything that actually impacts the game. If you want to limit the rate of weapons, ships, missions, and so on that a f2p can take then by all means do so.
This is less about the limitations on non-premium but more to do with a potential untapped income base which is micro-transactions and the ability to pull a profit while working on updates that we want to see, like the capship liveries you teased us with for instance.
A perfect VO would have crystals used ONLY for purchasing liveries, and other assorted VISUAL upgrades.
That way f2p/lite/premium all use credits as their main currency for everything that actually impacts the game. If you want to limit the rate of weapons, ships, missions, and so on that a f2p can take then by all means do so.
This is less about the limitations on non-premium but more to do with a potential untapped income base which is micro-transactions and the ability to pull a profit while working on updates that we want to see, like the capship liveries you teased us with for instance.
It just isn't realistic to expect us to support the game solely through selling visual changes.
However, I am well aware of the value of selling visual changes, that's why we've put time into the system, and liveries, and will continue to do so. I think it could turn into a meaningful revenue stream (again, that's why we're doing it), but not a panacea for supporting the company.
Basically, you aren't proposing anything that we aren't already working on doing. But it does take time to generate all that content for sale. Because you have to have a lot of content, or the economics of the system won't work at all.
This is part of why most items in the game (ships, etc) costs "Crystal" in the F2P version, for each individual purchase. It gives us a large existing base of content, and immediate compelling need to acquire said content (it's better than the "free" stuff). There's an obvious sink (ships are destroyed, or upgraded) and a it's a far more reliable driver than visual differentiation.
They're two different markets, really. Visual differentiation has more value as "whale" revenue stream. Which has lots of merits, especially if you measure statistical revenue breakdowns by arch-type and spending level in most games, a factor we understand very well.
But it has different development tradeoffs, which also have to be measured against partnerships and launch dates and contracts which also provide funding.
Anyway, most of your questions are probably best addressed by reading the many existing articles on F2P game design? I may have to drop off this thread, I'm pretty limited on time right now, and hopefully I've covered enough of the fundamental points here..
However, I am well aware of the value of selling visual changes, that's why we've put time into the system, and liveries, and will continue to do so. I think it could turn into a meaningful revenue stream (again, that's why we're doing it), but not a panacea for supporting the company.
Basically, you aren't proposing anything that we aren't already working on doing. But it does take time to generate all that content for sale. Because you have to have a lot of content, or the economics of the system won't work at all.
This is part of why most items in the game (ships, etc) costs "Crystal" in the F2P version, for each individual purchase. It gives us a large existing base of content, and immediate compelling need to acquire said content (it's better than the "free" stuff). There's an obvious sink (ships are destroyed, or upgraded) and a it's a far more reliable driver than visual differentiation.
They're two different markets, really. Visual differentiation has more value as "whale" revenue stream. Which has lots of merits, especially if you measure statistical revenue breakdowns by arch-type and spending level in most games, a factor we understand very well.
But it has different development tradeoffs, which also have to be measured against partnerships and launch dates and contracts which also provide funding.
Anyway, most of your questions are probably best addressed by reading the many existing articles on F2P game design? I may have to drop off this thread, I'm pretty limited on time right now, and hopefully I've covered enough of the fundamental points here..
I almost didnt play this game entirety because F2P existed at all... But I get it. Now, after spending the time in game to know I liked it I just subd. So let me ask: what do people actually need to buy crystals for? I always had enough and the only things I could see you needing to buy them for are trading weapons or playing without doing any botting, which I think is what generares crystals. So mining/trading only players?
There are some good ideas on here. Visual only changes tend to be very safe and can make a lot of cash. I would spend a lot on these and not feel ripped off at all. Not that Im claiming this would be the best way to go or anything like that.
There are some good ideas on here. Visual only changes tend to be very safe and can make a lot of cash. I would spend a lot on these and not feel ripped off at all. Not that Im claiming this would be the best way to go or anything like that.
You can get crystals by completing missions, killing bots, profitably trading, and mining. Buying crystals is kinda for those who die a bunch, i suppose.
Oh, and f2p who may wish to buy the firewasp skin for the hornet.
Oh, and f2p who may wish to buy the firewasp skin for the hornet.
Crystals arent that much of a pain. But i like the new liveries idea
I agree with incarnation, people wouldnt spend money buying credits because you can get them super fast and easy but crystals you cant
Honestly, I believe that the crystal cap should be increased. Not a big, big amount, but enough for people to actually ENJOY VO, as opposed to just grinding.
After all, PC players are more likely to do a grind, mobile players are usually younger, and have a much shorter attention span.
Furthermore, I believe that there should be a much higher crystal cap with a lite sub. I understand that we need to limit crystals to entice people to buy crystals and the like, but a lot of the time, there is a simple, three-step process that ends up in the mobile player broke in terms of crystals and leaving:
1) They buy a high-crystal ship. 2) Someone kills it. 3) Repeat.
Eventually, they are stuck in an EC, think 'This is a shit game', and leave.
There isn't much more to it.
After all, PC players are more likely to do a grind, mobile players are usually younger, and have a much shorter attention span.
Furthermore, I believe that there should be a much higher crystal cap with a lite sub. I understand that we need to limit crystals to entice people to buy crystals and the like, but a lot of the time, there is a simple, three-step process that ends up in the mobile player broke in terms of crystals and leaving:
1) They buy a high-crystal ship. 2) Someone kills it. 3) Repeat.
Eventually, they are stuck in an EC, think 'This is a shit game', and leave.
There isn't much more to it.
You would be generating income from subscriptions alongside microtransactions, Incarnate.
I would pay 10$ right now for access to that delicious camo Trident Type M livery.
I would pay 10$ right now for access to that delicious camo Trident Type M livery.
it does not actually give them access to move them all to actually build a ship. This could actually create a "thing for newbs to do" in making the smaller parts for full subbers
But if you can't move them then how sell them?
But if you can't move them then how sell them?