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Response to "Nerf Goliath Grid"
So, this is a post in response to the one mentioned above.
This is an attempt to solve the problem without nerfing the goliath - many pilots love their golis as is.
General premise is : Goliath is MUCH smaller, only has 1 engine, and should not be equal to a dent. also is about 1/4 the build time.
Solution : Buff the dent so its worth the additional build times, and to avoid making players with already owned cappies feeling cheated.
Personally, i think the best way to fix this issue of balance without making the players who have already attained their cappies feel cheated, would be to give the trident a boost in stats, relative to the goliath.
Goliath as is is a wonderful ship, flies well, nice to use, and to modify this would make many other pilots unhappy, as they preferred it as is now.
Rather than saying that the goliath beats the dent because of x / y / z, and then thinking to drop the goli stats, think of how maybe its really that the dent's stats are too low.
Currently, the tridents health and turret numbers are nice - no changes required - but it does have 2 engines in the build to the goli's 1, meaning it would actually make far more sense for the trident to be the faster of the two. Or, at least for it to be putting out more thrust.
Again, this would throw out balance a little, but if you kept the tridents slow turn speed, and added in the extra engine's thrust, you could then justify a trident which overall still accelerates slower than the goli, but has the same thrust, due to the substantial weight differences. Also, you could potentially increase the maximum speeds of the dent so it was maybe 45ms and 150ms, so the twin engines make more sense.
The physical appearance of the trident is such that it appears to displace more space than the goli by a factor of about 2.5 times... So the dent's weight could be potentially increased to manage to reduce the massive speed increase from the additional thrust from the engines. After all, the goli is pretty much the same size as one trident engine.
I'd say if there was a new capship lport weapon brought out that could require maybe 75 gridpower to force the turret/main weapon balance choices, and then give the dent 150 gridpower as well. Maybe add a 5k shield top up to widen the gap a little further too.
To summarise -
Changes for trident -
45ms max flight speed and 150ms max turbo speed on the trident to justify higher build times/2 engines
double weight
spin torque increased by 1.8 times,
double thrust (both natural thrust and turbo thrust)
increase gridpower to 150 on dent
5k shield increase
Also, general change accessable to goli and trident...
- add a capship cannon (maybe knauf's devastator with lower damage) with 75 grid power requirement
Should result in a wider stat gap between both ships, which is clearly necesary considering the size differences alone.
This is an attempt to solve the problem without nerfing the goliath - many pilots love their golis as is.
General premise is : Goliath is MUCH smaller, only has 1 engine, and should not be equal to a dent. also is about 1/4 the build time.
Solution : Buff the dent so its worth the additional build times, and to avoid making players with already owned cappies feeling cheated.
Personally, i think the best way to fix this issue of balance without making the players who have already attained their cappies feel cheated, would be to give the trident a boost in stats, relative to the goliath.
Goliath as is is a wonderful ship, flies well, nice to use, and to modify this would make many other pilots unhappy, as they preferred it as is now.
Rather than saying that the goliath beats the dent because of x / y / z, and then thinking to drop the goli stats, think of how maybe its really that the dent's stats are too low.
Currently, the tridents health and turret numbers are nice - no changes required - but it does have 2 engines in the build to the goli's 1, meaning it would actually make far more sense for the trident to be the faster of the two. Or, at least for it to be putting out more thrust.
Again, this would throw out balance a little, but if you kept the tridents slow turn speed, and added in the extra engine's thrust, you could then justify a trident which overall still accelerates slower than the goli, but has the same thrust, due to the substantial weight differences. Also, you could potentially increase the maximum speeds of the dent so it was maybe 45ms and 150ms, so the twin engines make more sense.
The physical appearance of the trident is such that it appears to displace more space than the goli by a factor of about 2.5 times... So the dent's weight could be potentially increased to manage to reduce the massive speed increase from the additional thrust from the engines. After all, the goli is pretty much the same size as one trident engine.
I'd say if there was a new capship lport weapon brought out that could require maybe 75 gridpower to force the turret/main weapon balance choices, and then give the dent 150 gridpower as well. Maybe add a 5k shield top up to widen the gap a little further too.
To summarise -
Changes for trident -
45ms max flight speed and 150ms max turbo speed on the trident to justify higher build times/2 engines
double weight
spin torque increased by 1.8 times,
double thrust (both natural thrust and turbo thrust)
increase gridpower to 150 on dent
5k shield increase
Also, general change accessable to goli and trident...
- add a capship cannon (maybe knauf's devastator with lower damage) with 75 grid power requirement
Should result in a wider stat gap between both ships, which is clearly necesary considering the size differences alone.
An afterthought - the changes mentioned to the weight here could also be affected by dropping the thrust and weight on the goli to about 60% of current amounts, making it still move the same but possess less mass, and thereby smoothing the statistical situation more easily.
but it does have 2 engines in the build to the goli's 1, meaning it would actually make far more sense for the trident to be the faster of the two. Or, at least for it to be putting out more thrust.
Trident has 2 engines to move the extra cargo it holds. Trident already has more 5000N more turbo thrust (but strangely less normal thrust).
But, honestly, I've always felt the Trident was absurdly and excessively sluggish.
For instance, a trident is 967x more massive than an X-1, yet only has 44x more thrust and only 86x more armor. While it doesn't necessarily make sense for thrust and armor to scale linearly, I think it would be worthwhile to bring the the curve down a bit. I mean, the Trident, as it stands now, has engines that are roughly 50% (or more?) of the ships total size, but, even when empty, it moves around like a Connie, whose engines are little dinky nubs on the back.
Anyway, this is another approach to the Goliath/Trident balance quandry: boosting the Trident stats. Though I think it's a much more difficult path than just making the manufacturing requirements closer.
I might be wrong here, but if you double the mass and double the thrust (and nearly double the spin torque), are you really changing anything in regards to agility?
Trident has 2 engines to move the extra cargo it holds. Trident already has more 5000N more turbo thrust (but strangely less normal thrust).
But, honestly, I've always felt the Trident was absurdly and excessively sluggish.
For instance, a trident is 967x more massive than an X-1, yet only has 44x more thrust and only 86x more armor. While it doesn't necessarily make sense for thrust and armor to scale linearly, I think it would be worthwhile to bring the the curve down a bit. I mean, the Trident, as it stands now, has engines that are roughly 50% (or more?) of the ships total size, but, even when empty, it moves around like a Connie, whose engines are little dinky nubs on the back.
Anyway, this is another approach to the Goliath/Trident balance quandry: boosting the Trident stats. Though I think it's a much more difficult path than just making the manufacturing requirements closer.
I might be wrong here, but if you double the mass and double the thrust (and nearly double the spin torque), are you really changing anything in regards to agility?
Actually Greenwall, the trident has only 2000N more turbo thrust. It has 5000N LESS normal thrust.
Trident's stats:
Goliath's stats:
It takes 6 more EHA's to build which only increases the cargo by 200 by and the armor by 400k. So if we are going to modify the trident's stats, we start by increasing the armor stats. The goliath has 600k armor, and Its engine pylon is internal, that tells me that the armor of the ship is mostly in the EHAs. Since a goliath uses 2 EHAs, that comes out to about 300k armor for EHA. That would give the trident about 2.4 million armor. I assume some of the armor count would be lost in the merging process during assembly, so i'll round down to 2 million armor.
Since in the goliath's engine outputs 15kN of thrust and 18kN of turbo thrust, then in an ideal world, two engines would output 30kN of thrust and 36kN of turbo thrust. But both ships are powered by only a single powercell (which has the same recharge stats) and one reactor (with identical stats). So something is going to have to give. Either we increase the turbo drain of the trident, or we make the thrust less efficient. I'm going to go with a mixture of both. So about a third less thrust from ideal and a third more turbo drain.
We don't change the grid power, because it is a function of the powercell, and not the ship itself. If we want to play with grids, then we suggest new capital power cells .
Suggested new Trident Type M stats:
Armor: 2000000
Cargo Capacity: 1000 cu
Weapons: 1 lg 4 tur
Mass: 3000000 kg
Volume (as cargo): 15,000 cu
Thrust: 20,000 N
Max Speed: 50 M/s
Spin torque: 6000.0 Nm
Turbo Trust: 24000N
Turbo Max Speed: 150 m/s
Turbo Energy: 60/s
Trident's stats:
Goliath's stats:
It takes 6 more EHA's to build which only increases the cargo by 200 by and the armor by 400k. So if we are going to modify the trident's stats, we start by increasing the armor stats. The goliath has 600k armor, and Its engine pylon is internal, that tells me that the armor of the ship is mostly in the EHAs. Since a goliath uses 2 EHAs, that comes out to about 300k armor for EHA. That would give the trident about 2.4 million armor. I assume some of the armor count would be lost in the merging process during assembly, so i'll round down to 2 million armor.
Since in the goliath's engine outputs 15kN of thrust and 18kN of turbo thrust, then in an ideal world, two engines would output 30kN of thrust and 36kN of turbo thrust. But both ships are powered by only a single powercell (which has the same recharge stats) and one reactor (with identical stats). So something is going to have to give. Either we increase the turbo drain of the trident, or we make the thrust less efficient. I'm going to go with a mixture of both. So about a third less thrust from ideal and a third more turbo drain.
We don't change the grid power, because it is a function of the powercell, and not the ship itself. If we want to play with grids, then we suggest new capital power cells .
Suggested new Trident Type M stats:
Armor: 2000000
Cargo Capacity: 1000 cu
Weapons: 1 lg 4 tur
Mass: 3000000 kg
Volume (as cargo): 15,000 cu
Thrust: 20,000 N
Max Speed: 50 M/s
Spin torque: 6000.0 Nm
Turbo Trust: 24000N
Turbo Max Speed: 150 m/s
Turbo Energy: 60/s
oh my bad, thanks for correction.
More armor would make more sense from a manufacturing perspective, but think about in game performance. I don't think simply making a trident take twice as long to kill is enough to offset the imbalance. Certainly wouldn't hurt to try it though.
More armor would make more sense from a manufacturing perspective, but think about in game performance. I don't think simply making a trident take twice as long to kill is enough to offset the imbalance. Certainly wouldn't hurt to try it though.
X1/trident comparison: linearity assumption is flawed.
Maybe the devs can add a modified Type-M to the test server (WAF edition) so we can play with balance.Or even better, give us the ability to modify numbers on the fly through the CLI on the test server.
what assumption, Deathspores?
Imagine the cringe-level of this conversation if there were Milinar and Siepos Tridents and Goliaths. Wally you forgot to compare to EC and Capella.
Welcome to VO 2.0: Capship Carebears Online.
Welcome to VO 2.0: Capship Carebears Online.
I think that adds nicely, "We all float", to my logic for why we should have dents buffed rather than goli nerfed. If the goli is nerfed it wouldnt be worth building.
Also, maybe the s and p would be a good introduction at the same time... Even if it were just some variance in armor/speed balance between the three, it'd make a huge amount of more manu available to players.
Also, maybe the s and p would be a good introduction at the same time... Even if it were just some variance in armor/speed balance between the three, it'd make a huge amount of more manu available to players.
Making the dent thrust and speed would therefore make it faster then a goli yes? In my opinion I do not see either as needing a buff. Aa a goli takes over five minutes to kill a dent with just swarms (tested). Your not making the goli directly obsolete. But you are making two sand castles side by side and building the left one (dent) up so high that's It casts a shadow on the other. I'm all in for rebalancing, but giving one a huge gap in every thing Is over the top. See the "nerf Goli grid" to continue that discussion because at this rate the entire suggestion forum will turn into a "should goli be nerfed" argument
My suggestion iron was for the dents weight to also be increased. It would probably be a touch faster than the trident used to be, but still far slower than a goli. But, the stats would make sense.
Thats to say, goli would still be more nimble, but the tridents overall max speed might be higher.
Thats to say, goli would still be more nimble, but the tridents overall max speed might be higher.
i think this is turning into something bad... the goliath only has 3 turrets, the battery nerf we just recieved leaves my goli docked or flying with a port empty and 2 capital turrets. with 1 grid power to spare...
IMO the shield being as low as it is helps balance it over a dent anyways, can be deshielded rather easily, dont even have to stack on it.... its a lot faster that the dent is but much MUCH easier to destroy. i think the grid power should be 80, not 55, thats unreasonably low considering it restricts the load out to the point its at 2/3 its designed strength.
The cargo is lower, the armors lower, the shields lower, everything is lower than a dent except the speed, i dont see why this was a conversation in the first place... they were balanced reasonably well before, now the goli is ruined and i bet you dont even see em flying around anymore... whats the point...
IMO the shield being as low as it is helps balance it over a dent anyways, can be deshielded rather easily, dont even have to stack on it.... its a lot faster that the dent is but much MUCH easier to destroy. i think the grid power should be 80, not 55, thats unreasonably low considering it restricts the load out to the point its at 2/3 its designed strength.
The cargo is lower, the armors lower, the shields lower, everything is lower than a dent except the speed, i dont see why this was a conversation in the first place... they were balanced reasonably well before, now the goli is ruined and i bet you dont even see em flying around anymore... whats the point...
if its gonna be seriously considered... id like to offer an alternative...
instead of adjusting the armor, the grid power, shield, etc
maybe adjust the turbo drain of the goli battery, it charges insanely fast when turboing and allows for max speed over about 10km... under turbo its acceptable that it wouldnt charge that fast, or even at all, i dont think it should drain it, and if thats considered i dont think it should be a fast drain, it shuld be able to hit max speed from max battery, but the other stats i think are in order....
instead of adjusting the armor, the grid power, shield, etc
maybe adjust the turbo drain of the goli battery, it charges insanely fast when turboing and allows for max speed over about 10km... under turbo its acceptable that it wouldnt charge that fast, or even at all, i dont think it should drain it, and if thats considered i dont think it should be a fast drain, it shuld be able to hit max speed from max battery, but the other stats i think are in order....
The point was that 3 capswarms with the new higher damage combined with the speed makes it op. Limiting the grid prevents that from being possible. You can still equip 2 capitol swarm turrets which will still deshield a dent.
Uhm, even with 2 cap swarm turrets, you still have enough grid power for either a firecracker, gemini, gauss, Gatling, neutron or shield turret. The first few are good at throwing off chasers.
As wash said, you only can't have 3 capswarms, or 2 swarms + rail.
As wash said, you only can't have 3 capswarms, or 2 swarms + rail.