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It appears avalon torpedoes are able to travel much farther then thier intended design.
They were speced to be 35 for 120 seconds for a max range of 4k.
It is clear from other posts that the torpedoes are traveling much faster and covering 10k+ m.
Please either remove the speed boost so they travel at the correct speed or cut thier flight time by half or more .
Either way thier range should be restored to less then 4k.
They were speced to be 35 for 120 seconds for a max range of 4k.
It is clear from other posts that the torpedoes are traveling much faster and covering 10k+ m.
Please either remove the speed boost so they travel at the correct speed or cut thier flight time by half or more .
Either way thier range should be restored to less then 4k.
Maybe it was because the person didn't shoot them while being stationary?
If you think that it is broken, this does not belong to suggestions but to bugs.
Now if you are suggesting to modify current behavior:
Avalons are not missiles, they have the same behavior as rockets. It means that they inherit the speed of the ship from where they are fired. This is the intended behavior.
Now if you want them to be missiles with constant speed you should request they become also guided weapons.
If you are just asking for a nerf, you should as well request for their removal because with what you are suggesting they are pretty useless for the purpose they are used now: deshielding capŝhips/queens/levis.
Now if you are suggesting to modify current behavior:
Avalons are not missiles, they have the same behavior as rockets. It means that they inherit the speed of the ship from where they are fired. This is the intended behavior.
Now if you want them to be missiles with constant speed you should request they become also guided weapons.
If you are just asking for a nerf, you should as well request for their removal because with what you are suggesting they are pretty useless for the purpose they are used now: deshielding capŝhips/queens/levis.
Avalons are neither missles nor rockets. They are torpedoes.
They were intended to be slow moving and not very usefull against moving targets.
They are only suppose to move at 35 m/s which is why they have a 120 second life.
They are in fact currently being used in a manner which allows the shooter to fire them with no risk.
This is unbalanced and not in the spirit of the game.
The devs have several options on how to fix the issue and I will leave it to them to decide the best fix for the situation.
I cant say thier current behavior is bugged. It simply falls outside the range of desired game play.
I realise the added speed makes them more usefull but it also greatly extended thier range which likely wasnt intended.
Reducing thier life to 40 or so would also reduce thier range back to a reasonable amount.
I cant really say what change would be needed to restore them to the way the devs envisioned them.
Only the devs can determine that.
They were intended to be slow moving and not very usefull against moving targets.
They are only suppose to move at 35 m/s which is why they have a 120 second life.
They are in fact currently being used in a manner which allows the shooter to fire them with no risk.
This is unbalanced and not in the spirit of the game.
The devs have several options on how to fix the issue and I will leave it to them to decide the best fix for the situation.
I cant say thier current behavior is bugged. It simply falls outside the range of desired game play.
I realise the added speed makes them more usefull but it also greatly extended thier range which likely wasnt intended.
Reducing thier life to 40 or so would also reduce thier range back to a reasonable amount.
I cant really say what change would be needed to restore them to the way the devs envisioned them.
Only the devs can determine that.
-1
This would effectively render them useless. Might as well remove them from the game.
This would effectively render them useless. Might as well remove them from the game.
-1
Relative speed makes sense. They have a high mass and the ship carrying them has to accelerate with them to reach the higher speed. It doesn't make sense that they would suddenly slow down on being launched from a ship.
Relative speed makes sense. They have a high mass and the ship carrying them has to accelerate with them to reach the higher speed. It doesn't make sense that they would suddenly slow down on being launched from a ship.
How would this make them isesless it would still be super easy to stack them up and they have 2 minutes Of moving at 35m/s that’s 4200m people stack swarms at ~1600. I agree with pakettle since it’s possible to bomb targets way outside radar range with them. I foresee this becoming a pretty big issue once some of incs other ideas are in game.
PaKettle, Can you link me to where the the devs discuss the avalon's intended uses and speeds? I have been searching the forums, i have found this so far:
A discussion started by yoda in October 2011: https://vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/25428#312317
News update from Nov 19 2011 about VO 1.8.198 https://vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/25532#313433
The wiki when it was updated in 2011 shows the torpedo lifespan @ 120s. I can't yet find the info on the avalon from before 2003. I basically need someone who is a packrat to post that info here.
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edit: found this:
This (to me) seems to imply that avalons currently do inherit their firing velocity, and that the devs have (or had) plans to nix that when a homing version got implemented. Or maybe I'm reading too much into that one sentence.
-1. Current behavior is fine. They aren't going to hit you unless you stay still. If you stay still, you deserve everything that happens to you.
-1, if you class them as torpedoes if I move 120mph the Avalon would go the same speed and then some + it's propulsion or whatever unguided missiles have. Plus.. they aren't good against moving targets unless you get point blank rag/centaur av'd. Which is just enough to deshield a goliath. And if you shoot twice a dent too.
And yet they have a crazy long range.... 15k or so
This (to me) seems to imply that avalons currently do inherit their firing velocity, and that the devs have (or had) plans to nix that when a homing version got implemented. Or maybe I'm reading too much into that one sentence.
You're right, that is exactly what I intended. Basically, what I discovered (back then) was that making them target-able in a meaningful way was a much bigger technical undertaking than I had expected. So, Avalons were back-burnered.
But, I would like to expand on the entire idea of "Torpedoes", as content that could be shot-down and defended-against, which basically requires them to have some reasonable fixed speed. They're intended to be used against slow-moving or non-moving ships, or immobile targets. There could potentially be an entire class of Torpedoes, with different parameters. But, really, we need to make them target-able and destructible first.
Note, they are not intended to be "seriously" homing; but rather, configuring them as a homing missile is a way of making them fixed-speed. Torpedoes will always be "not-really-homing" weapons: they have to be shot from some distance, and they have to physically hit the target based on your initial aim.
You're right, that is exactly what I intended. Basically, what I discovered (back then) was that making them target-able in a meaningful way was a much bigger technical undertaking than I had expected. So, Avalons were back-burnered.
But, I would like to expand on the entire idea of "Torpedoes", as content that could be shot-down and defended-against, which basically requires them to have some reasonable fixed speed. They're intended to be used against slow-moving or non-moving ships, or immobile targets. There could potentially be an entire class of Torpedoes, with different parameters. But, really, we need to make them target-able and destructible first.
Note, they are not intended to be "seriously" homing; but rather, configuring them as a homing missile is a way of making them fixed-speed. Torpedoes will always be "not-really-homing" weapons: they have to be shot from some distance, and they have to physically hit the target based on your initial aim.
I would suggest making torpedoes only slightly homing. Very slightly, as in a turning radius that would allow them to change course by maybe 15m per kilometer.
This would help with the inherent inaccuracy of extreme range shots, at very long ranges rail pellets for instance seem to almost spiral, that's the best I can do to describe it. 15 meters might be too much, or not enough, testing would show.
As for shooting them down, perhaps https://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/35502 would help. Shield turrets can be used to break up a swarm stack. I've tested it, it's just very hard to do, but not impossible.
This would help with the inherent inaccuracy of extreme range shots, at very long ranges rail pellets for instance seem to almost spiral, that's the best I can do to describe it. 15 meters might be too much, or not enough, testing would show.
As for shooting them down, perhaps https://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/35502 would help. Shield turrets can be used to break up a swarm stack. I've tested it, it's just very hard to do, but not impossible.
" Basically, what I discovered (back then) was that making them target-able in a meaningful way was a much bigger technical undertaking than I had expected. So, Avalons were back-burnered."
I just thought of something related to that.
Could you make them actually MINES With velocity? That would make them destroy-able at least with incoming weapons fire. Making mines target-able again would help even more, I can easily see somebody trying to use gemeni's or stingrays as an anti missile system.
Many years ago I had an alias/bind setup in my wgaf that cycled through target-able mines VERY fast, so I could take out 4 mines with one volley of swarms.
The only possible downside I see is nuclear fratricide. You can lay a chain of proximity mines and have them make pretty cool effects that way.
I just thought of something related to that.
Could you make them actually MINES With velocity? That would make them destroy-able at least with incoming weapons fire. Making mines target-able again would help even more, I can easily see somebody trying to use gemeni's or stingrays as an anti missile system.
Many years ago I had an alias/bind setup in my wgaf that cycled through target-able mines VERY fast, so I could take out 4 mines with one volley of swarms.
The only possible downside I see is nuclear fratricide. You can lay a chain of proximity mines and have them make pretty cool effects that way.
I dont have issue with them inherenting some initial speed from the shooter... however they should slow down just as ships do once turbo stops generally using the same curve.
It would be like making a sports game where throwing a football would result in a ballistic arc while a thrown baseball would simply land at your feet.
Allowing torpedoes (or any other propelled object) to retain thier initial velocity the entire time is inconsistent with the basic physics of the game. I can see making mines and crates exempt if it would create to much load on the servers but in the interest of realism they should actually also inherit their initial speed as they drop and the slow to zero. Picking up cargo should have the reverse effect and cause a slowdown of the ship proportional to the relative mass involved.
The arguement that 35m/s speed would make them useless is somewhat true in all cases and I think they could use an increase but thier lifespan also needs to be reduced to keep thier range to less then 5k from thier launch point.
Homing capability should come with a trade off such as lower speed and range as well as a reduced damage potential.
It would be like making a sports game where throwing a football would result in a ballistic arc while a thrown baseball would simply land at your feet.
Allowing torpedoes (or any other propelled object) to retain thier initial velocity the entire time is inconsistent with the basic physics of the game. I can see making mines and crates exempt if it would create to much load on the servers but in the interest of realism they should actually also inherit their initial speed as they drop and the slow to zero. Picking up cargo should have the reverse effect and cause a slowdown of the ship proportional to the relative mass involved.
The arguement that 35m/s speed would make them useless is somewhat true in all cases and I think they could use an increase but thier lifespan also needs to be reduced to keep thier range to less then 5k from thier launch point.
Homing capability should come with a trade off such as lower speed and range as well as a reduced damage potential.
-1. This will add another to the list of unused weapons that gather dust, such as Flechette Cannons. Changing them in such a way that doesn't allow them to inherit speed makes them quite useless as a destructive weapon. In fact, they're already rarely used, so as DeathSpores mentioned: If you're going to ask for such a drastic nerf you might aswell just request they be removed because no one will use them anyway.
I see no reason why we can't have guided and unguided nukes.
I took a few days(ie showers) to formulate my thoughts. First things first, the issue with long range fire by an enemy force is easily dealt with by allowing strike forces to engage beyond 15k. Currently avalon torpedo are a limited use weapon. The only ships that stand still for any length of time are NPC ships(mostly deneb) or unpiloted player capital ships. Since capital ships can be set to follow a player now, aving them is normally no longer an option.
In my experience the contemporary top uses for avalons are:
1) Levis
Though due to levi drift (the longer the levi sector remains active, the more the levi twists, turns and drifts), avalon stacks are quite difficult to land. A pilot needs to aim for where the levi will be in 60 seconds, not where you see it when you launch your first shot.
2) Instant nuke
A “fun” tactic of shooting an av into a mine and instantly exploding.
3) Conquerable station denial
Flying out beyond the turrets and streaming avs in to deny the use of the conq station. Reloading on a capital ship means a constant stream of avs can be streamed in. This is an effective tactic.
If avalons are nerfed only to be slow, then #3 is off the table, and that means conq station battles are made even less fun. Changing Avalons to be slow and slightly guided does help with #1, bringing avalon stacking against levis to the masses. From what I can see, instant nuking will not be affected. So instant nukes for all.
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Being able to use nuclear weapons against an enemy from distance of over 15k should be allowed in this game. We are able to fly out to over 18k and we can see stations from that far out. If i can see it, i should have a weapon that can hit it. Though there should be trade offs. Being unguided is one such trade off. If avalons are to be slow moving, then please extend their lifespan from 120 seconds to 600 seconds.
The real issue, in my mind, is if their use should be sustained indefinitely. I say no. Three ideas to this end. First, avalons should be targeted by station/sector defense turrets. Some of the avalons will make it through of course, but some will get exploded by the turrets. Maybe use the missile turrets to intercept the fast moving avalons. Or even place a training sector turret that is only tasked with eliminating nuclear ordinance in sector.
During a station engagement, there would be explosions going off everywhere. Some hitting the station, some exploding before station due to the defenses. Maybe the connie/hacs in capital sectors would move to intercept the avalons, and shield the stations.
Second idea. Avalons do 15k damage, like the TU mine. This will be incredibly unpopular, but maybe they should cost credits to reload(even on a capital ship). Alternatively, since they are a hive drop, perhaps launchers should be expended upon use. To reload a launcher, more launchers would need to be in a station or capital ship. When a pilot docks, the ammo from a launcher in a hold would be transferred to the launcher equipped ship. In this way, a long bombardment of a target would require hundreds of launchers, making such a tactic impossible to sustain forever, and prohibitively expensive.
Three, like mines, avalons should be like bread crumbs for station strike force/station guards. (if a pilot strings out a long line of mines, station guards will follow them, and shoot them. Even for hundreds of kilometers). In fact, if a nuclear launch is detected in a station sector, a special task force should be deployed by the station to find and engage the source of weapons. This task force would hunt down the avalons, and the pilots launching them.
There should be severe penalties to their use. Using a nuclear device within a guarded sector should, if another player is killed with no defensive flag in play, result in some kind of kos that can't be lifted for a set period of time (even with botting). Say 72 hours. This will be similar to how a 24 tkos can not be lifted by escorts or botting until the time has elapsed.
In my experience the contemporary top uses for avalons are:
1) Levis
Though due to levi drift (the longer the levi sector remains active, the more the levi twists, turns and drifts), avalon stacks are quite difficult to land. A pilot needs to aim for where the levi will be in 60 seconds, not where you see it when you launch your first shot.
2) Instant nuke
A “fun” tactic of shooting an av into a mine and instantly exploding.
3) Conquerable station denial
Flying out beyond the turrets and streaming avs in to deny the use of the conq station. Reloading on a capital ship means a constant stream of avs can be streamed in. This is an effective tactic.
If avalons are nerfed only to be slow, then #3 is off the table, and that means conq station battles are made even less fun. Changing Avalons to be slow and slightly guided does help with #1, bringing avalon stacking against levis to the masses. From what I can see, instant nuking will not be affected. So instant nukes for all.
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Being able to use nuclear weapons against an enemy from distance of over 15k should be allowed in this game. We are able to fly out to over 18k and we can see stations from that far out. If i can see it, i should have a weapon that can hit it. Though there should be trade offs. Being unguided is one such trade off. If avalons are to be slow moving, then please extend their lifespan from 120 seconds to 600 seconds.
The real issue, in my mind, is if their use should be sustained indefinitely. I say no. Three ideas to this end. First, avalons should be targeted by station/sector defense turrets. Some of the avalons will make it through of course, but some will get exploded by the turrets. Maybe use the missile turrets to intercept the fast moving avalons. Or even place a training sector turret that is only tasked with eliminating nuclear ordinance in sector.
During a station engagement, there would be explosions going off everywhere. Some hitting the station, some exploding before station due to the defenses. Maybe the connie/hacs in capital sectors would move to intercept the avalons, and shield the stations.
Second idea. Avalons do 15k damage, like the TU mine. This will be incredibly unpopular, but maybe they should cost credits to reload(even on a capital ship). Alternatively, since they are a hive drop, perhaps launchers should be expended upon use. To reload a launcher, more launchers would need to be in a station or capital ship. When a pilot docks, the ammo from a launcher in a hold would be transferred to the launcher equipped ship. In this way, a long bombardment of a target would require hundreds of launchers, making such a tactic impossible to sustain forever, and prohibitively expensive.
Three, like mines, avalons should be like bread crumbs for station strike force/station guards. (if a pilot strings out a long line of mines, station guards will follow them, and shoot them. Even for hundreds of kilometers). In fact, if a nuclear launch is detected in a station sector, a special task force should be deployed by the station to find and engage the source of weapons. This task force would hunt down the avalons, and the pilots launching them.
There should be severe penalties to their use. Using a nuclear device within a guarded sector should, if another player is killed with no defensive flag in play, result in some kind of kos that can't be lifted for a set period of time (even with botting). Say 72 hours. This will be similar to how a 24 tkos can not be lifted by escorts or botting until the time has elapsed.
No thanks the above idea, but 600 second life span would be nice. Make levi hunting much easier and way easier to solo
ironic you want levi hunting to be solo but complain non stop about any hint that killing a capship solo may become more feasible.
change the game for me but not for thee very much?
change the game for me but not for thee very much?