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look guys, all you have to do is have the Frigate move 500m and do a 0 and have 4 Definders and it wont have blind spots.
Spellcast, 35 energy per second?
Engine stats:
Light: 35 energy per second recharge
Medium: 40 energy per second recharge
Heavy: 45 energy per second recharge
Fast Charge: 50 energy per second recharge
Engine stats:
Light: 35 energy per second recharge
Medium: 40 energy per second recharge
Heavy: 45 energy per second recharge
Fast Charge: 50 energy per second recharge
umm what flaw?
that was intentional. It's not going to be useful as an offensive weapon because of the minimal damage it does. anyone will be able to turbo away long before the weapon does significant damage. I forsee it as more of an anti-missile system on a small craft. Now on a Capital ship the amount of damage would be scaled up in proportion. It wouldnt be a significant amount of damage to another capital ship, (maybe 1000/second or so assuming a cap ship with 500k hull) but it's a lot against a small ship.
It's a Large port weapon, that leaves the Warthog, Wraith, Centaur and Prommy as the only ships that can carry it. none of those are particularly agile. Besides, in order to kill even a bus you would have to stay within 50M for a full minute. Even with a heavy battery, you cant turbo and use the Lightning for a full minute.
that was intentional. It's not going to be useful as an offensive weapon because of the minimal damage it does. anyone will be able to turbo away long before the weapon does significant damage. I forsee it as more of an anti-missile system on a small craft. Now on a Capital ship the amount of damage would be scaled up in proportion. It wouldnt be a significant amount of damage to another capital ship, (maybe 1000/second or so assuming a cap ship with 500k hull) but it's a lot against a small ship.
It's a Large port weapon, that leaves the Warthog, Wraith, Centaur and Prommy as the only ships that can carry it. none of those are particularly agile. Besides, in order to kill even a bus you would have to stay within 50M for a full minute. Even with a heavy battery, you cant turbo and use the Lightning for a full minute.
The smallest capital ship sized 'battery' I would envision having something in the neighborhood of 7000 energy and a recharge rate of _at least_ 240 or so per second (probably more).
A ship the size of the 'frigate', which despite its name is a very large capital ship, should have 4 such batteries - large ones - with a total recharge rate of at least 1600 per second, and a total storage of around 56,000 energy divided amongst the batteries and turret capacitors (see my post on turrets).
Anything less than that and a big ship would go bone dry in mere seconds.
Since the 'close proximity screen' is covering for what ammounts to nearly an absolute weakness in a capital ship, it cannot be considered 'optional' equipment or in any way a bonus feature, but instead has to be considered to be standard equipment operated for 'free' just like something like life support.
On the other hand, such a system on a small manueverable hull is a huge advantage, so huge, that I'm not sure that it could be truly balanced. As such, I think maybe we should confine it to capital ship hulls, or at least plan on doing so until a really clear oppurtunity to do otherwise presents itself. A mobile lightning mine mounted on a Warthog would go beyond annoying, especially with the current bugs/problems we have with lighning mines and latency.
As to the question of realism, I've said before that I don't think it is that important. Realistically, it is highly unlikely that a space ship would ever survive to get within 10km of another vessel, much less 100m or 10m. Realistically, its not clear whether space 'fighters' should even exist. Realistically, as I said, space ships that had reason to fear something getting close to thier superstructure would be designed in such a way that they didn't have any concave surfaces which its defensive systems could not fire into, but as I said before, such 'realism' too highly constrains the artist. We can't have every model looking like variations on the Borg Cube or Death Star. And while it would be nice to have artist think about gun placement while designing ships, we shouldn't force them to fix every tiny potential hole in the coverage.
Realism is not as important as good gameplay.
A ship the size of the 'frigate', which despite its name is a very large capital ship, should have 4 such batteries - large ones - with a total recharge rate of at least 1600 per second, and a total storage of around 56,000 energy divided amongst the batteries and turret capacitors (see my post on turrets).
Anything less than that and a big ship would go bone dry in mere seconds.
Since the 'close proximity screen' is covering for what ammounts to nearly an absolute weakness in a capital ship, it cannot be considered 'optional' equipment or in any way a bonus feature, but instead has to be considered to be standard equipment operated for 'free' just like something like life support.
On the other hand, such a system on a small manueverable hull is a huge advantage, so huge, that I'm not sure that it could be truly balanced. As such, I think maybe we should confine it to capital ship hulls, or at least plan on doing so until a really clear oppurtunity to do otherwise presents itself. A mobile lightning mine mounted on a Warthog would go beyond annoying, especially with the current bugs/problems we have with lighning mines and latency.
As to the question of realism, I've said before that I don't think it is that important. Realistically, it is highly unlikely that a space ship would ever survive to get within 10km of another vessel, much less 100m or 10m. Realistically, its not clear whether space 'fighters' should even exist. Realistically, as I said, space ships that had reason to fear something getting close to thier superstructure would be designed in such a way that they didn't have any concave surfaces which its defensive systems could not fire into, but as I said before, such 'realism' too highly constrains the artist. We can't have every model looking like variations on the Borg Cube or Death Star. And while it would be nice to have artist think about gun placement while designing ships, we shouldn't force them to fix every tiny potential hole in the coverage.
Realism is not as important as good gameplay.
True. Just a quick detour, then I'll return to topic, I swear. I can't imagine a sphere (Death Star) being anything but a nightmare to defend with cannons. A Borg Cube is efficient, and easy to cover with energy weapons. Anyhow...
Yes, lightning should be standard defense equipment for capital ships. My question is how much lightning? Should it have a maximum of three arcs at a time for example, or just be able to dish out unlimited close-range punishment? While I can see the appeal of unlimited antifighter defense, a three or so arc limit would provide a tactical advantage to a massed fighter attack and encourage cooperation, as well as easing the balancing of such a weapon.
Grouping and points:
Perhaps the Frigate should provide points to all members of a group who have done damage to the current incarnation of the frigate. Also: Have the Frigate drop random widgets instead of just weapon widgets in addition to the Precious Minerals.
Yes, lightning should be standard defense equipment for capital ships. My question is how much lightning? Should it have a maximum of three arcs at a time for example, or just be able to dish out unlimited close-range punishment? While I can see the appeal of unlimited antifighter defense, a three or so arc limit would provide a tactical advantage to a massed fighter attack and encourage cooperation, as well as easing the balancing of such a weapon.
Grouping and points:
Perhaps the Frigate should provide points to all members of a group who have done damage to the current incarnation of the frigate. Also: Have the Frigate drop random widgets instead of just weapon widgets in addition to the Precious Minerals.
A frigate should never be solo. There should be no need for 'lightning hulls' if you have a compliment of fighters to defend your capital ship.
Think of your fighter escort as an extension of your capital ship. Would you leave a dock now without any weapons equipped? No. Or if you did and got killed you would have only yourself to blame. Similarly, if you take your frigate for a spin without an adequate escort of fighters or smaller anti-fighter craft and get killed, IT'S YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT.
That said the frigate does need some changes. All energy weapons in general seem to only work when you and your target are facing one another at about 100-300m. Running or moving targets are close to impossible to hit, let alone destroy. The turret frigates can't hit me if i sit there sidestepping back and forth with a quarter loop thrown in every now and again. If anything, all energy weapons need a boost in leathaliy.
The turrets can be destroyable, but they definately need more health. As it is now, they something like 10 tri-tachs (which is more health than most fighters have, but still.) The frigate should die before it loses say 1/4 of its turrets. This way it would be tactically possible to create a weakness in its defenses after you took out its fighter screen, while remaining difficult to kill.
Think of your fighter escort as an extension of your capital ship. Would you leave a dock now without any weapons equipped? No. Or if you did and got killed you would have only yourself to blame. Similarly, if you take your frigate for a spin without an adequate escort of fighters or smaller anti-fighter craft and get killed, IT'S YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT.
That said the frigate does need some changes. All energy weapons in general seem to only work when you and your target are facing one another at about 100-300m. Running or moving targets are close to impossible to hit, let alone destroy. The turret frigates can't hit me if i sit there sidestepping back and forth with a quarter loop thrown in every now and again. If anything, all energy weapons need a boost in leathaliy.
The turrets can be destroyable, but they definately need more health. As it is now, they something like 10 tri-tachs (which is more health than most fighters have, but still.) The frigate should die before it loses say 1/4 of its turrets. This way it would be tactically possible to create a weakness in its defenses after you took out its fighter screen, while remaining difficult to kill.
Starfisher: You realize of course that your position isn't entirely logically consistant. You claim that there is no need for 'lightning hulls' because a frigate ought to depend on its fighter wing to defend itself. You then go on to claim that the frigate needs changes that make it less dependent on fighter protection.
The first claim would be a valid charge only if the intention of the 'lightning hull' was to make it possible for the frigate to protect itself against a concerted fighter attack without screening vessels.
But it should be clear from the description of the device that that is not at all the intention - it only extends 50m out. As you yourself say, the Frigate can't protect itself from a fighter using only moderately evasive techniques. So as a device to make fighter cover obselete, my 'lightning hull' would be an abject failure. No, the purpose of the 'lightning hull' is not to obselete fighter cover, but to keep fighter attackers playing 'fair' _for the good of both the attackers and the defenders_. Frankly, I think everyone but the munchkins would prefer the game my way.
To me, finding some technique that exploits weaknesses in the game or in the AI in order to win isn't all that fun, or at the least, it isn't optimally fun. I don't want fighters parking 5m off the frigate and blasting at it while hidden in some nook or cranny to ever be a significant part of the game. And no matter what you say, it would be whether the frigate had fighter cover or not. 'In the real world', if an enemy fighter landed in the docking bay, not only would there be some sort of countermeasure, but very quickly someone would either do something or at the least a sensor would tell the captain, 'Hey, there is an enemy fighter in docking bay B slowly carving away our internal structure'. But in the game it is going to take someone highly observant to notice that some enemy fighter has gotten out of sight and is now parked in some 'arm pit' somewhere. The only thing that the ship's captain is going to notice is that he's slowly (or not so slowly) taking damage. He isn't going to be able to precisely pin point where that damage is happening at and do something about it.
And that's discussing the problem as if we could always depend on human players to be around. It ought to go without saying that making AI fighters understand and respond to every potentially abusive 'tactic' is going to be alot more difficult, if not impossible.
Realism (and I use this term very loosely when talking about 'space fighters) has to take a back seat to game play.
Nothing I've said can possibly be construed to mean that I'm trying to kill the idea of teamwork or 'combined arms'. What I am trying to do is to maximize the interest in the gameplay by removing all the things that you could do that either take no skill, or else would tend to promote the development of silly gamish skills. I want the fight between the bombers and thier escorts, and the frigate and its escorts to be decided by visually appealing, frantic, skillful, and exciting _dog fighting_ not by people sneaking into each others docking bays (or any other blind spot) or otherwise exploit limitations of the game.
Some of you may think you are being 'creative' by hiding in a blind spot. You aren't. The joy you are feeling is the same that a kid has when he finds a way to violate the spirit of the rules when no one else is. If everyone violates the spirit of the rules, then noone has any fun and you might as well stop playing. You are equivalent to a kid who has realized that someone neglected to define some area 'out of bounds' in your game of tag, so you just run in a straight line away from the playing area and don't stop. Assuming you aren't the first person chased, and assuming that you are roughly as fast as your peers you won't be caught. You may 'win', but what have you won?
Some of you think you are exercising 'good tactics' by creating blind spots blowing away a turret or too. You are, but you aren't necessarily being presented by a truly challenging tactical problem. In fact, you are solving a trivial tactical problem and one that requires relatively little skill and practice. To make the game truly interesting, the tactical problems can't have so simple of solutions that you can describe them in a line or two.
The first claim would be a valid charge only if the intention of the 'lightning hull' was to make it possible for the frigate to protect itself against a concerted fighter attack without screening vessels.
But it should be clear from the description of the device that that is not at all the intention - it only extends 50m out. As you yourself say, the Frigate can't protect itself from a fighter using only moderately evasive techniques. So as a device to make fighter cover obselete, my 'lightning hull' would be an abject failure. No, the purpose of the 'lightning hull' is not to obselete fighter cover, but to keep fighter attackers playing 'fair' _for the good of both the attackers and the defenders_. Frankly, I think everyone but the munchkins would prefer the game my way.
To me, finding some technique that exploits weaknesses in the game or in the AI in order to win isn't all that fun, or at the least, it isn't optimally fun. I don't want fighters parking 5m off the frigate and blasting at it while hidden in some nook or cranny to ever be a significant part of the game. And no matter what you say, it would be whether the frigate had fighter cover or not. 'In the real world', if an enemy fighter landed in the docking bay, not only would there be some sort of countermeasure, but very quickly someone would either do something or at the least a sensor would tell the captain, 'Hey, there is an enemy fighter in docking bay B slowly carving away our internal structure'. But in the game it is going to take someone highly observant to notice that some enemy fighter has gotten out of sight and is now parked in some 'arm pit' somewhere. The only thing that the ship's captain is going to notice is that he's slowly (or not so slowly) taking damage. He isn't going to be able to precisely pin point where that damage is happening at and do something about it.
And that's discussing the problem as if we could always depend on human players to be around. It ought to go without saying that making AI fighters understand and respond to every potentially abusive 'tactic' is going to be alot more difficult, if not impossible.
Realism (and I use this term very loosely when talking about 'space fighters) has to take a back seat to game play.
Nothing I've said can possibly be construed to mean that I'm trying to kill the idea of teamwork or 'combined arms'. What I am trying to do is to maximize the interest in the gameplay by removing all the things that you could do that either take no skill, or else would tend to promote the development of silly gamish skills. I want the fight between the bombers and thier escorts, and the frigate and its escorts to be decided by visually appealing, frantic, skillful, and exciting _dog fighting_ not by people sneaking into each others docking bays (or any other blind spot) or otherwise exploit limitations of the game.
Some of you may think you are being 'creative' by hiding in a blind spot. You aren't. The joy you are feeling is the same that a kid has when he finds a way to violate the spirit of the rules when no one else is. If everyone violates the spirit of the rules, then noone has any fun and you might as well stop playing. You are equivalent to a kid who has realized that someone neglected to define some area 'out of bounds' in your game of tag, so you just run in a straight line away from the playing area and don't stop. Assuming you aren't the first person chased, and assuming that you are roughly as fast as your peers you won't be caught. You may 'win', but what have you won?
Some of you think you are exercising 'good tactics' by creating blind spots blowing away a turret or too. You are, but you aren't necessarily being presented by a truly challenging tactical problem. In fact, you are solving a trivial tactical problem and one that requires relatively little skill and practice. To make the game truly interesting, the tactical problems can't have so simple of solutions that you can describe them in a line or two.
wow... Celebrim... you go...
I think Celebrim has a ton of good ideas...
i've only attacked the frigate once and it was with a group of people... and i didnt know about the blind spot issue, i lost half my ships hit points and then the frigate blew up...
yeay.... that was fun.
i think in any war game, that you would want to exploit any weakness your enemy has. thats the point. now blind spots are gonna happen, even if the "artist" takes all the time in the world to design it... my car has a blind spot, i'm sure real air planes have blind spots and i'm sure the International Space Station has blindspots... i think adding a fighter escort equiled to the NPC ships in home sectors would change the way everyone one plays that fight...
a single fighter would no longer be able to take it down.
put in an algorithm that tells 25% of availble NPC fighters to attack the closest enemy fighter to the frigate.
things like shields, destructable wings, engines, fighter bays will have to come when its time to polish the product.
for now at least adding some NPC fighters would make things real interesting...
I think Celebrim has a ton of good ideas...
i've only attacked the frigate once and it was with a group of people... and i didnt know about the blind spot issue, i lost half my ships hit points and then the frigate blew up...
yeay.... that was fun.
i think in any war game, that you would want to exploit any weakness your enemy has. thats the point. now blind spots are gonna happen, even if the "artist" takes all the time in the world to design it... my car has a blind spot, i'm sure real air planes have blind spots and i'm sure the International Space Station has blindspots... i think adding a fighter escort equiled to the NPC ships in home sectors would change the way everyone one plays that fight...
a single fighter would no longer be able to take it down.
put in an algorithm that tells 25% of availble NPC fighters to attack the closest enemy fighter to the frigate.
things like shields, destructable wings, engines, fighter bays will have to come when its time to polish the product.
for now at least adding some NPC fighters would make things real interesting...
Combat airplanes and ground vehicles are generally built to maximize the pilot's viewpoint while balancing in his protection. Your car is not a combat vehicle.
The International Space Station is most definitely not a combat vehicle. It's the space equivalent of a bunch of logs tied together with rope. It's that leap, from mere "it floats, right?" to something like an Athenian Trireme is the difference between the ISS and the Frigate.
The fact stands that from a fighter's point of view (if not necessarily a tactical one), the Frigate is and always will be a basically stationary target. With that in mind, and given the fighter-based nature of the current Vendetta universe, the designers of the frigate would go to great lengths to specialize their vehicle for an anti-fighter/bomber role, rather than a ship-to-ship big gun slugfest. Against a capital ship, nooks, crannies and such aren't such a problem. Against fighters, any hole the guns can't reach is like a big sign saying "Kill me!". The Lightning Hull fills all of the holes in the hull, preventing anyone from nestling into a blind spot. To overlook such a defense on a space-based capital ship would be suicide.
The International Space Station is most definitely not a combat vehicle. It's the space equivalent of a bunch of logs tied together with rope. It's that leap, from mere "it floats, right?" to something like an Athenian Trireme is the difference between the ISS and the Frigate.
The fact stands that from a fighter's point of view (if not necessarily a tactical one), the Frigate is and always will be a basically stationary target. With that in mind, and given the fighter-based nature of the current Vendetta universe, the designers of the frigate would go to great lengths to specialize their vehicle for an anti-fighter/bomber role, rather than a ship-to-ship big gun slugfest. Against a capital ship, nooks, crannies and such aren't such a problem. Against fighters, any hole the guns can't reach is like a big sign saying "Kill me!". The Lightning Hull fills all of the holes in the hull, preventing anyone from nestling into a blind spot. To overlook such a defense on a space-based capital ship would be suicide.
ctishman...
i guess you didnt see the sarcasim in my note...
the point was, you'll never get rid of all the blind spots...
i think a shield that attacks some one is poop. maybe the shield will just prevent the fighter from getting to close...
and if they left the frigate the way it is today... and just added some NPC ships to protect it...
it would change everything... even the people who take the frigate one on one and hide in a blind spot and kill it...
as Celebrim would say... it would be "less skilless"...
i guess you didnt see the sarcasim in my note...
the point was, you'll never get rid of all the blind spots...
i think a shield that attacks some one is poop. maybe the shield will just prevent the fighter from getting to close...
and if they left the frigate the way it is today... and just added some NPC ships to protect it...
it would change everything... even the people who take the frigate one on one and hide in a blind spot and kill it...
as Celebrim would say... it would be "less skilless"...
Actually i'm not totally sure what would be better, a lightning shield or celebrims armor thread. (cele you have too much time, hunt up your thread on armor plating and link it here) if the only weapons thac can hurt the frigate are large rockets with explosions that damage you if you are close enough to be inside the firing arc of the guns that would solve the problem as well.
or maybe a combination of the two. actually i think a combination would be the best. as for the lightning shield being "poop" i dont think so, a capital ship is a huge investment, but it would be no fun to have it destroyed because a few of your fighter escorts have to log off and go to work. NPC bots are a bad idea IMO since eventually the plan is to have cap ships player controlled (that is still the plan isnt it devs?)
or maybe a combination of the two. actually i think a combination would be the best. as for the lightning shield being "poop" i dont think so, a capital ship is a huge investment, but it would be no fun to have it destroyed because a few of your fighter escorts have to log off and go to work. NPC bots are a bad idea IMO since eventually the plan is to have cap ships player controlled (that is still the plan isnt it devs?)
"Actually i'm not totally sure what would be better, a lightning shield or celebrims armor thread."
They aren't intended to be mutually exclusive. Rather, they are two of the three part system for protecting capital ships while keeping interaction with them and between them 'interesting'. The armor system has the additional advantage of making configuring your ship more interesting. (Do I want to equip weapons that work better against fighters, or ones that work better against capital ships...)
"...hunt up your thread on armor plating and link it here"
Yes, sir! Right away, sir! ;) But, err, sir...if you'll look at my first post in this thread you'll see that I've already provided the link. :)
Here it is again if you missed it:
http://vendetta.guildsoftware.com/?action=msgboard&thread=1416
"i think a shield that attacks some one is poop. maybe the shield will just prevent the fighter from getting to close..."
Wait a minute... either I'm confused now or you are. Isn't the purpose of my 'shield that attacks some one' to 'prevent the fighter from getting too close'?
"and if they left the frigate the way it is today... and just added some NPC ships to protect it..."
In case you are new, the Frigate used to have about 18 NPC fighters that swarmed around it to protect it. In and of itself, that was not and is not sufficient to keep people from exploiting blind spots. As I said before, it's not enough to just have NPC protection. You must have very very smart NPC protection with the ability to plot paths around the Frigate hull, and which knows the difference between a 'clear shot' and shooting the side of its own mother ship. And even if you had 'smart NPC' or PC's that could usually track down someone trying to pull off a simple victory and prevent it, it still would be better for the game if tactics like 'hide in the enemies docking bay' were just not a part of the game.
They aren't intended to be mutually exclusive. Rather, they are two of the three part system for protecting capital ships while keeping interaction with them and between them 'interesting'. The armor system has the additional advantage of making configuring your ship more interesting. (Do I want to equip weapons that work better against fighters, or ones that work better against capital ships...)
"...hunt up your thread on armor plating and link it here"
Yes, sir! Right away, sir! ;) But, err, sir...if you'll look at my first post in this thread you'll see that I've already provided the link. :)
Here it is again if you missed it:
http://vendetta.guildsoftware.com/?action=msgboard&thread=1416
"i think a shield that attacks some one is poop. maybe the shield will just prevent the fighter from getting to close..."
Wait a minute... either I'm confused now or you are. Isn't the purpose of my 'shield that attacks some one' to 'prevent the fighter from getting too close'?
"and if they left the frigate the way it is today... and just added some NPC ships to protect it..."
In case you are new, the Frigate used to have about 18 NPC fighters that swarmed around it to protect it. In and of itself, that was not and is not sufficient to keep people from exploiting blind spots. As I said before, it's not enough to just have NPC protection. You must have very very smart NPC protection with the ability to plot paths around the Frigate hull, and which knows the difference between a 'clear shot' and shooting the side of its own mother ship. And even if you had 'smart NPC' or PC's that could usually track down someone trying to pull off a simple victory and prevent it, it still would be better for the game if tactics like 'hide in the enemies docking bay' were just not a part of the game.
Make it so that you can enter the frigate and to destroy it, you must destroy the reactor! BWUHAHAHAHA
/me hides his Star Wars discs..
Also with the laser thingy, maybe something like that; if you're standing still (or not moving a lot) for longer than 5 sec. a red beam comes out of the nearest turret, and after 1 sec a 20 meter wide gigantic beam of death appears and shoots at the area your humble ship floats.
And with the new gravity thingy, maybe also equip the frigate with 'gravity' turrets, that pull the ship more towards the frig if you're not moving enough.
And... why not put like 5 frigates in formation there >:) With only 200 m or so between them.
/me hides his Star Wars discs..
Also with the laser thingy, maybe something like that; if you're standing still (or not moving a lot) for longer than 5 sec. a red beam comes out of the nearest turret, and after 1 sec a 20 meter wide gigantic beam of death appears and shoots at the area your humble ship floats.
And with the new gravity thingy, maybe also equip the frigate with 'gravity' turrets, that pull the ship more towards the frig if you're not moving enough.
And... why not put like 5 frigates in formation there >:) With only 200 m or so between them.
"And... why not put like 5 frigates in formation there >:) With only 200 m or so between them."
Get between the two frigates. Dodge. Watch them blow each other up without you ever firing a shot.
Get between the two frigates. Dodge. Watch them blow each other up without you ever firing a shot.
<<Yes, sir! Right away, sir! ;) But, err, sir...if you'll look at my first post in this thread you'll see that I've already provided the link. :)
Here it is again if you missed it:>>
whoops, didn't see that up there. lol :)
Anyway, back a tad bit further up the thread I mentioned the idea that the defense sheild could use a weapons port and you replied that it needed to be a built in object. I see nothing wrong with my idea, it's availible to you and you can buy and use it. If you don't add it (or something similar) to your ship you are silly and deserve to have your ten million credit capital ship destroyed.
Having it as a mountable item allows variations in the sheild design. If necessary it can have a "Sheild Port" to mount it on instead of a weapons port, but the point is that maybe you dont want the lightning sheild. Maybe you want the sheild that uses reverse gravity technology to propel anything within 50M away from your hull. Or maybe you want the EMP sheild that knocks out the electronics of anything within 50M for a short time.(now that ship that was racing to get into your docking bay and hide cant stop and crashes painfully off the back wall) Perhaps there are different strengths of Lightning sheild.
Or a field that surrounds your ship in a hulltight electomagnetic "skin" that reflects any pure energy bolt back in the direction it came. (hit it with a tachyon or gauss and the bolts just get reflected, use a rocket or other kinetic energy weapon and they hit since the damage is from a physical object)
On the same note, how about a sheild mount that acts as a cloaking device instead. It doesn't stop damage or cause any to opponents.. just makes it very difficult to see you. Like looking into a pool of water, everything is distorted. try to navigate into the docking bay when your visual references are unreliable.
Finally after some thinking, I'm not totally sure that the frigate is as veunerable by itself as it currently seems. In a real combat the frigate would be moving. Adjusting course and speed. Remaining in a blind spot would become more difficult. I still feel that some form of defense for those blind spots is neccesary, but maybe it wouldnt need to be quite so powerful.
Here it is again if you missed it:>>
whoops, didn't see that up there. lol :)
Anyway, back a tad bit further up the thread I mentioned the idea that the defense sheild could use a weapons port and you replied that it needed to be a built in object. I see nothing wrong with my idea, it's availible to you and you can buy and use it. If you don't add it (or something similar) to your ship you are silly and deserve to have your ten million credit capital ship destroyed.
Having it as a mountable item allows variations in the sheild design. If necessary it can have a "Sheild Port" to mount it on instead of a weapons port, but the point is that maybe you dont want the lightning sheild. Maybe you want the sheild that uses reverse gravity technology to propel anything within 50M away from your hull. Or maybe you want the EMP sheild that knocks out the electronics of anything within 50M for a short time.(now that ship that was racing to get into your docking bay and hide cant stop and crashes painfully off the back wall) Perhaps there are different strengths of Lightning sheild.
Or a field that surrounds your ship in a hulltight electomagnetic "skin" that reflects any pure energy bolt back in the direction it came. (hit it with a tachyon or gauss and the bolts just get reflected, use a rocket or other kinetic energy weapon and they hit since the damage is from a physical object)
On the same note, how about a sheild mount that acts as a cloaking device instead. It doesn't stop damage or cause any to opponents.. just makes it very difficult to see you. Like looking into a pool of water, everything is distorted. try to navigate into the docking bay when your visual references are unreliable.
Finally after some thinking, I'm not totally sure that the frigate is as veunerable by itself as it currently seems. In a real combat the frigate would be moving. Adjusting course and speed. Remaining in a blind spot would become more difficult. I still feel that some form of defense for those blind spots is neccesary, but maybe it wouldnt need to be quite so powerful.
Ok, if no one remembers from the last time we had the frigate, and we had furies defending the frigate, The furies would run into the frigate issuing, essentially killing off the frigate by itself. And right now the physics are all wrong to have it move right now, so, we'll have to make do with what we have for now, and wait until the devs fix this.
Needed: smarter wingmen, more varied mountable capital ship-class weapons, engine exerting force on ships behind frigate, some sort of rechargable shield.
Cele's lightning shield is the way to go. 25-50m range on it and it should work out quite well to prevent cheapness. I just don't see how it would affect any other aspect of gameplay with such a small range. You might get nicked by it every now and then but it won't be significant. So that takes care of cheap tactics.
Then there is the issue of how to deal with bombers. Generally, a fighter escort should be able to take out most bombers, but the cap-ships shouldn't have to dispatch their entire fighter wing to stop 2 or 3 ragnaroks from charging it. Maybe giving it some variant of the dev cannon as someone said earlier would solve this problem. I'm not sure about giving it any sort of "sniper scope." Possible just an animation in it's beam cannons to signify that they're charging. If any bombers are in the way, ZAP, boom. It would probably have to take 3 or 4 seconds to get a solid shot and have a long cooldown on each turret. Basically, I see it working as a railgun, only a slower (by slower I mean slow to respond to a fire command since it has to charge) and vastly more powerful. It shouldn't be good enough to take out most serious bomber wings. Just enough to discourage any ship from sitting still for too long in front of it.
Then there is the issue of how to deal with bombers. Generally, a fighter escort should be able to take out most bombers, but the cap-ships shouldn't have to dispatch their entire fighter wing to stop 2 or 3 ragnaroks from charging it. Maybe giving it some variant of the dev cannon as someone said earlier would solve this problem. I'm not sure about giving it any sort of "sniper scope." Possible just an animation in it's beam cannons to signify that they're charging. If any bombers are in the way, ZAP, boom. It would probably have to take 3 or 4 seconds to get a solid shot and have a long cooldown on each turret. Basically, I see it working as a railgun, only a slower (by slower I mean slow to respond to a fire command since it has to charge) and vastly more powerful. It shouldn't be good enough to take out most serious bomber wings. Just enough to discourage any ship from sitting still for too long in front of it.
First, my random point:
[rant]As of now, I have heard of small weapons ports, large weapons ports, capital wapons ports, engine ports, multiple capital engine ports, battery ports asundry, equipment ports, electronic ports, and cargo ports. Pretty soon, someone is going to be silly and suggest docking bay ports. That is why I do NOT like the slot system. Beyond severly limiting imagination, they make it difficult to add new features.[/rant]
As I see it, the final product of these frigate experiments will never be controlled by NPCs. Unless there is some major breakthrough in the bot's AIs, it's hopeless. It's going to take about fifteen players to man the largest of the capital ships the devs are working on. Here's how I see the battle coming to pass:
[story]
An Itani Frigate warps into s8 just in time to see a Serco cruiser complete the warp in from s5. The cruiser pilot sends an urgent message to the battlegroup commander in the war room, "Serco Cruiser sighted, engage?" The commander pulls up his holographic display of the sector and decides the time is right. he /msgs "head for those roids, we'll make our stand there," to the pilot. Then, over group chat, he calls all members to red alert. Six gunners run to their turrets and the eight piolts head to their ships. They know the drill, the five valks will launch first and screen the three rags.
The Cruiser takes the bait and locks in an intercept course. At 1500m, both ships disgourge their compliment of fighters. The valks head for their Serco opponents at full speed. The rags follow at 3/4ths, withing for a missile lock. Back in the war room, the commander scrutinizes his display. From a relay, he can see the first blows exchanged by his fighters, but that is not what concerns him. Pulling up his sector display, he notes that the cruiser is still on an intercept course perpendicular to the Frigate's. Fools, he shakes his head. He /msgs the pilot again, "get in front of them, lets get a full broadside."
The valks continue to cover the rags as they prepare an avalon run along the Cruiser's spine. At 400m, the Frigate has managed to place itself directly in front of the Cruiser. It rolls 90 degrees and opens fire with all cannons, manned and unmanned. The Cruiser can only return fire with its two bow cannons. In moments, the Cruiser is a ball of fire, the victim of bad tactics.
The frigate turns and proceeds to pick up cargo as the gunners turn their focus on the reaining Serco fighter pilots. Suddenly, the commander notices that his display shows a lonely prom hiding in an armpit, blasting away. He quickly relays this to the group and three valks easily dispatch the stubborn soul.
[/story]
I think this is what we should be looking forward to, not whining about exploits like these now. Manning a Frigate is going to require skill, cooperation, and a committed group of players. That's three strikes for the robot nation.
In the mean time, I suggest we reenable the furies, disable friendly fire (they can't hit each other), and make it so they can't do/receive dange from collisions with the Frigate. I believe this would be simpler than inventing a new, surface contour weapon, which would involve calculations on the order of collision detection.
[rant]As of now, I have heard of small weapons ports, large weapons ports, capital wapons ports, engine ports, multiple capital engine ports, battery ports asundry, equipment ports, electronic ports, and cargo ports. Pretty soon, someone is going to be silly and suggest docking bay ports. That is why I do NOT like the slot system. Beyond severly limiting imagination, they make it difficult to add new features.[/rant]
As I see it, the final product of these frigate experiments will never be controlled by NPCs. Unless there is some major breakthrough in the bot's AIs, it's hopeless. It's going to take about fifteen players to man the largest of the capital ships the devs are working on. Here's how I see the battle coming to pass:
[story]
An Itani Frigate warps into s8 just in time to see a Serco cruiser complete the warp in from s5. The cruiser pilot sends an urgent message to the battlegroup commander in the war room, "Serco Cruiser sighted, engage?" The commander pulls up his holographic display of the sector and decides the time is right. he /msgs "head for those roids, we'll make our stand there," to the pilot. Then, over group chat, he calls all members to red alert. Six gunners run to their turrets and the eight piolts head to their ships. They know the drill, the five valks will launch first and screen the three rags.
The Cruiser takes the bait and locks in an intercept course. At 1500m, both ships disgourge their compliment of fighters. The valks head for their Serco opponents at full speed. The rags follow at 3/4ths, withing for a missile lock. Back in the war room, the commander scrutinizes his display. From a relay, he can see the first blows exchanged by his fighters, but that is not what concerns him. Pulling up his sector display, he notes that the cruiser is still on an intercept course perpendicular to the Frigate's. Fools, he shakes his head. He /msgs the pilot again, "get in front of them, lets get a full broadside."
The valks continue to cover the rags as they prepare an avalon run along the Cruiser's spine. At 400m, the Frigate has managed to place itself directly in front of the Cruiser. It rolls 90 degrees and opens fire with all cannons, manned and unmanned. The Cruiser can only return fire with its two bow cannons. In moments, the Cruiser is a ball of fire, the victim of bad tactics.
The frigate turns and proceeds to pick up cargo as the gunners turn their focus on the reaining Serco fighter pilots. Suddenly, the commander notices that his display shows a lonely prom hiding in an armpit, blasting away. He quickly relays this to the group and three valks easily dispatch the stubborn soul.
[/story]
I think this is what we should be looking forward to, not whining about exploits like these now. Manning a Frigate is going to require skill, cooperation, and a committed group of players. That's three strikes for the robot nation.
In the mean time, I suggest we reenable the furies, disable friendly fire (they can't hit each other), and make it so they can't do/receive dange from collisions with the Frigate. I believe this would be simpler than inventing a new, surface contour weapon, which would involve calculations on the order of collision detection.
"Pretty soon, someone is going to be silly and suggest docking bay ports."
Under my system, docking bays fit the hypothetical very large weapon port. Call that silly if you like.
Incidently, I'm the guy that first mentioned 'equipment ports' and 'electronics ports'. They are the same thing; I've just called them different things at different times as my thinking about them evolved.
"That is why I do NOT like the slot system. Beyond severly limiting imagination, they make it difficult to add new features."
Huh?? What? No... Huh??? I don't understand either of your points in the slightest. How does the slot system severly limit imagination? Isn't the point of the slot system to allow you to build any sort of ship you can imagine? It's not like Vendetta is the only game which has adopted a slot system. Most space combat games have a slot system of some sort.
Maybe I'm just stupid, but I don't understand at all what you mean by the slot system severely limiting imagination. When I think about a system that severely limits player imagination, I think about completely non-configurable ships. I don't see how configurability and thousands if not millions of possible ships severely limits imagination.
Secondly, I don't see how it makes it difficult to add new features. Adding radically new features is always difficult. Having those features fit in slots is a fairly trivial portion of the work of adding new features now that existing code exists for storing those features in slots. Please explain how having slots makes adding new features difficult. I don't see it.
"As I see it, the final product of these frigate experiments will never be controlled by NPCs. Unless there is some major breakthrough in the bot's AIs, it's hopeless. It's going to take about fifteen players to man the largest of the capital ships the devs are working on."
I'm not entirely sure you see it at all. If it takes 15 players to man a capital ship, I can tell you from experience that its just not going to happen and is not going to be worth it. As I see it, its a far easier thing to have capital ships controled by NPC's than PC's. Based on your description of how things would work, I suggest that you've never played a game in which 15 people had to highly coordinate thier actions.
"Manning a Frigate is going to require skill, cooperation, and a committed group of players. That's three strikes for the robot nation."
Actually, that's three strikes for the human nation.
"skill": Have you watched the 350 bots dodging energy weapons? Do you think any human could be that skillful? The robot nation has perfect reflexes.
"cooperation": The robot nation can perfectly and instantly communicate to anyone else in it. You can't. If you have to open up channels and type out instructions for 15 people, you are doomed. Things happen too fast. Ever played a RTS game like Warcraft? Do you think you can out cooperate an AI? You can beat an AI but it sure isn't through better cooperation.
"dedication": The robot nation can play the game 24/7. It never has to break to eat, sleep, work, study, or go to the bathroom. It can live in the game universe. You can't.
Yes, the AI needs alot of work.
Heres what I see as the final product of the frigate experiments:
http://vendetta.guildsoftware.com/?action=msgboard&thread=2314
Under my system, docking bays fit the hypothetical very large weapon port. Call that silly if you like.
Incidently, I'm the guy that first mentioned 'equipment ports' and 'electronics ports'. They are the same thing; I've just called them different things at different times as my thinking about them evolved.
"That is why I do NOT like the slot system. Beyond severly limiting imagination, they make it difficult to add new features."
Huh?? What? No... Huh??? I don't understand either of your points in the slightest. How does the slot system severly limit imagination? Isn't the point of the slot system to allow you to build any sort of ship you can imagine? It's not like Vendetta is the only game which has adopted a slot system. Most space combat games have a slot system of some sort.
Maybe I'm just stupid, but I don't understand at all what you mean by the slot system severely limiting imagination. When I think about a system that severely limits player imagination, I think about completely non-configurable ships. I don't see how configurability and thousands if not millions of possible ships severely limits imagination.
Secondly, I don't see how it makes it difficult to add new features. Adding radically new features is always difficult. Having those features fit in slots is a fairly trivial portion of the work of adding new features now that existing code exists for storing those features in slots. Please explain how having slots makes adding new features difficult. I don't see it.
"As I see it, the final product of these frigate experiments will never be controlled by NPCs. Unless there is some major breakthrough in the bot's AIs, it's hopeless. It's going to take about fifteen players to man the largest of the capital ships the devs are working on."
I'm not entirely sure you see it at all. If it takes 15 players to man a capital ship, I can tell you from experience that its just not going to happen and is not going to be worth it. As I see it, its a far easier thing to have capital ships controled by NPC's than PC's. Based on your description of how things would work, I suggest that you've never played a game in which 15 people had to highly coordinate thier actions.
"Manning a Frigate is going to require skill, cooperation, and a committed group of players. That's three strikes for the robot nation."
Actually, that's three strikes for the human nation.
"skill": Have you watched the 350 bots dodging energy weapons? Do you think any human could be that skillful? The robot nation has perfect reflexes.
"cooperation": The robot nation can perfectly and instantly communicate to anyone else in it. You can't. If you have to open up channels and type out instructions for 15 people, you are doomed. Things happen too fast. Ever played a RTS game like Warcraft? Do you think you can out cooperate an AI? You can beat an AI but it sure isn't through better cooperation.
"dedication": The robot nation can play the game 24/7. It never has to break to eat, sleep, work, study, or go to the bathroom. It can live in the game universe. You can't.
Yes, the AI needs alot of work.
Heres what I see as the final product of the frigate experiments:
http://vendetta.guildsoftware.com/?action=msgboard&thread=2314