Forums » Suggestions
Hello (first post) Ideas how I can contribute / New Economy
I tend to agree with all of it. It's actually kind of depressing because it reminds me of what VO could be.
Lets get to 2.0 so our 4 awesome devs can turn into 4 awesome devs and 20 semi-awesome devs!
Lets get to 2.0 so our 4 awesome devs can turn into 4 awesome devs and 20 semi-awesome devs!
Okay, I bit my tongue before. But before, it was just going to be a trollish remark. Now I have some reasoning behind what I will say:
This really does belong in Suggestions. PCC is mostly, almost exclusively, for the Mission Editor thingies.
Now, hear me out. The reasoning is that these are Suggestions. Also, as you may not know or have forgotten, only a very small percentage of the player base can see this forum, as opposed to everyone being able to see the Suggestions forum. A discussion is easier in that venue.
This really does belong in Suggestions. PCC is mostly, almost exclusively, for the Mission Editor thingies.
Now, hear me out. The reasoning is that these are Suggestions. Also, as you may not know or have forgotten, only a very small percentage of the player base can see this forum, as opposed to everyone being able to see the Suggestions forum. A discussion is easier in that venue.
...so copy everything here and paste it in a post on the suggestions forum! Then delete your posts here.
Moved it on over to Suggestions.
2.8. The Economy system must appear to control the Money Supply in such a way as to protect the value of money over time. As more player characters get created, more Money is made available to the community automatically. As player characters become inactive or retire, their fortune needs to be recycled by the Economy (their savings are reinvested in corporations). At the minimum, the Guild Software Devs should have a report that tracks the Money Supply weekly, even if they are not taking proactive steps to constrain it.
Money not being an actual thing, I find this to be a strikingly bad idea. Money is what your government gives you in place of raw materials and labor. That being said, no matter how much 'money' is implemented into a society, the actual value of what that society can produce isn't changed in the slightest. Likewise, because of it's deviation from reality, (it's a man made concept, it only exists in our heads) it doesn't follow some natural rules of balance, and so can be lost forever, or created on a whim.
Instead, consider a corporation, with it's workers. The worker receives his ships and equipment from his employer for a service, and the more efficiently he does so, the quicker he gets ships and stuff. A fighter who kills as often as he gets killed might be able to break even, and in that way continue working so long as the corporation is alive. Of course if he wants to fly the more advanced ships, he'll probably have to kill more often than he dies, and so on.
Should the corporation fail however, the worker's investment is dissolved, and so it is in his best interest to work profitably. Likewise, he doesn't contribute, the corporation is more likely to die (for example, everyone in that guild quits playing the game for a month). In this way, no money is lost from the universe. It's always in infinite supply, either in the form of tokens or digitalized code, but no matter how much money is printed or lost, it never effects the true balance of the game. It's only a secondary concept used to help keep track of who did what for how many jelly beans.
Money in this case would just be a system of points that whichever corporation your work for gives you in exchange for your services, which can later be redeemed for those ships which you would need to buy to earn those points. Think about it; if you earned a whole bunch of 'money' fighting for your Itani nation, why the hell would the Serco then take that same currency and give you ships and weapons for it?
Before the concept of money came about, it was about resources. It still is, but people usually have trouble looking that far down the line of logic, they fail to see why certain things are valued as they are. That's fine, because for most people they will never need to know. When making a game based on reality though, it pays to understand where value comes from.
In VO, it's ore, the time it takes to transport that ore, and ultimately the ships and equipment made from it. That is the end all resource. What money does is find a medium between time and resource. If a miner mines enough ore to rebuild his ship every hour, and dies every hour, he will not break even; he'll have a whole bunch of ore, but no ships assembled. He needs to have enough ore extra to pay someone for the time to build his ships. Thus money was invented as a medium between labor and resources.
When manufacturing comes into play, I hope that one of the items able to be produced is simply a token, with the unique codes and what not that current day currency has. Let money be handled as it actually is, realistically. (Plus, this opens up the door for counterfeiting and stuff.)
Money not being an actual thing, I find this to be a strikingly bad idea. Money is what your government gives you in place of raw materials and labor. That being said, no matter how much 'money' is implemented into a society, the actual value of what that society can produce isn't changed in the slightest. Likewise, because of it's deviation from reality, (it's a man made concept, it only exists in our heads) it doesn't follow some natural rules of balance, and so can be lost forever, or created on a whim.
Instead, consider a corporation, with it's workers. The worker receives his ships and equipment from his employer for a service, and the more efficiently he does so, the quicker he gets ships and stuff. A fighter who kills as often as he gets killed might be able to break even, and in that way continue working so long as the corporation is alive. Of course if he wants to fly the more advanced ships, he'll probably have to kill more often than he dies, and so on.
Should the corporation fail however, the worker's investment is dissolved, and so it is in his best interest to work profitably. Likewise, he doesn't contribute, the corporation is more likely to die (for example, everyone in that guild quits playing the game for a month). In this way, no money is lost from the universe. It's always in infinite supply, either in the form of tokens or digitalized code, but no matter how much money is printed or lost, it never effects the true balance of the game. It's only a secondary concept used to help keep track of who did what for how many jelly beans.
Money in this case would just be a system of points that whichever corporation your work for gives you in exchange for your services, which can later be redeemed for those ships which you would need to buy to earn those points. Think about it; if you earned a whole bunch of 'money' fighting for your Itani nation, why the hell would the Serco then take that same currency and give you ships and weapons for it?
Before the concept of money came about, it was about resources. It still is, but people usually have trouble looking that far down the line of logic, they fail to see why certain things are valued as they are. That's fine, because for most people they will never need to know. When making a game based on reality though, it pays to understand where value comes from.
In VO, it's ore, the time it takes to transport that ore, and ultimately the ships and equipment made from it. That is the end all resource. What money does is find a medium between time and resource. If a miner mines enough ore to rebuild his ship every hour, and dies every hour, he will not break even; he'll have a whole bunch of ore, but no ships assembled. He needs to have enough ore extra to pay someone for the time to build his ships. Thus money was invented as a medium between labor and resources.
When manufacturing comes into play, I hope that one of the items able to be produced is simply a token, with the unique codes and what not that current day currency has. Let money be handled as it actually is, realistically. (Plus, this opens up the door for counterfeiting and stuff.)
This is fascinating stuff!
To help deal with the whole "too much money" thing, how about introducing storage/rent charges. Taxation would be good too (as you mentioned) depending on the government in power, the poor may have to turn to piracy in order to scrape by.
Renting a living space or hotel room could be an interesting dynamic that causes the player to really consider where they log out. If they are on a long mission far from home, the corporate that sent them could pay their hotel expenses. If they are freelance the player would need to pay for themselves. It might become advantagous to "sleep" in your ship in open space rather than fork out for accommodation, which would pose even greater risks to the poor.
Rich players would be able to live in convenient and desirable locations, whereas the middle class and poor would be restricted to other areas.
There could be exclusive space stations that are only available to the elite, but ideally these would not provide further advantages but instead serve as status symbols.
Player owned living accommodations could be decorated, and other players invited there. Decorations could be available as rewards and be traded with other players. I think second life uses this concept to the extreme.
Hope this doesn't sound too rambly, didn't get much sleep last night.
To help deal with the whole "too much money" thing, how about introducing storage/rent charges. Taxation would be good too (as you mentioned) depending on the government in power, the poor may have to turn to piracy in order to scrape by.
Renting a living space or hotel room could be an interesting dynamic that causes the player to really consider where they log out. If they are on a long mission far from home, the corporate that sent them could pay their hotel expenses. If they are freelance the player would need to pay for themselves. It might become advantagous to "sleep" in your ship in open space rather than fork out for accommodation, which would pose even greater risks to the poor.
Rich players would be able to live in convenient and desirable locations, whereas the middle class and poor would be restricted to other areas.
There could be exclusive space stations that are only available to the elite, but ideally these would not provide further advantages but instead serve as status symbols.
Player owned living accommodations could be decorated, and other players invited there. Decorations could be available as rewards and be traded with other players. I think second life uses this concept to the extreme.
Hope this doesn't sound too rambly, didn't get much sleep last night.
Previous relevant thread
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/16119
and my take on the whole thing.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/16119?page=2#204224
Enjoy
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/16119
and my take on the whole thing.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/16119?page=2#204224
Enjoy
Quoting previous threads is almost a game in itself!
So basically, what I was talking about is determined as a "Money Sink"?
OK, let's take away the monetary/economic aspect for a second... I couldn't see any previous reference to owning your own room on a space station? It would still be nice to be able to offer your personalised space as an alternative to the Bar, after all, if you're married you can't just stick up your Metallica poster on the wall in real life any more.
At the very least, how about a bar skin?
So basically, what I was talking about is determined as a "Money Sink"?
OK, let's take away the monetary/economic aspect for a second... I couldn't see any previous reference to owning your own room on a space station? It would still be nice to be able to offer your personalised space as an alternative to the Bar, after all, if you're married you can't just stick up your Metallica poster on the wall in real life any more.
At the very least, how about a bar skin?
Could a guide please bounce this back to PCC, thanks -- Foo Fighter
---- edit ----
I strongly disagree.
Fine I am deleting my ideas / contribution / content.
---- edit ----
I strongly disagree.
Fine I am deleting my ideas / contribution / content.
I'm in agreement with moldyman, Phaserlight and Lemming on this one. This really is a Suggestions thread.
The PCC forum is for discussion of how to use the Mission Editor, desired features for the editor, mission structure and content, and the like.
/edit: (and now he's removed all of his posts.) I'm sorry you are upset - that was certainly not my intention, but the stated purpose of the PCC forum is as I paraphrased above. It cannot be used as a "protected harbor" in which to post non-PCC ideas without fear of opposing views or negative feedback. You could certainly email your contributions directly to Incarnate if you like.
The PCC forum is for discussion of how to use the Mission Editor, desired features for the editor, mission structure and content, and the like.
/edit: (and now he's removed all of his posts.) I'm sorry you are upset - that was certainly not my intention, but the stated purpose of the PCC forum is as I paraphrased above. It cannot be used as a "protected harbor" in which to post non-PCC ideas without fear of opposing views or negative feedback. You could certainly email your contributions directly to Incarnate if you like.
Hi EddyHolland,
This was such a fascinating thread, I very much enjoyed reading it. The whole economic theory was something that really got me thinking and it's a real shame it's been removed.
I feel strangely responsible for bringing it back to the forefront of the forum and causing the bad feeling. For that I apologise. Is there any way to bring it all back again?
This was such a fascinating thread, I very much enjoyed reading it. The whole economic theory was something that really got me thinking and it's a real shame it's been removed.
I feel strangely responsible for bringing it back to the forefront of the forum and causing the bad feeling. For that I apologise. Is there any way to bring it all back again?
Donkeybandit: you have nothing to apologise for, you were not responsible for that.
Whistler:
- I would have replied on the PCC thread but the right to reply there has been locked from me. I would also have retracted my dig at moldyman, as I was off the mark. I would not want to start a new thread in "General" just to bitch about this slight. Hence my post here. However, I don't want this to run and run.
- [quote] "Please be respectful of the work we do here." - Whistler [quote]
: I have always been respectful in the PCC and _never_ disrespectful, for you to imply otherwise, without a right-to-reply, is unfair and incorrect. I take it personally as you seeking to supress or chastise me.
- Of course, Whistler will have the last word: he is a guide.
- I would have replied on the PCC thread but the right to reply there has been locked from me. I would also have retracted my dig at moldyman, as I was off the mark. I would not want to start a new thread in "General" just to bitch about this slight. Hence my post here. However, I don't want this to run and run.
- [quote] "Please be respectful of the work we do here." - Whistler [quote]
: I have always been respectful in the PCC and _never_ disrespectful, for you to imply otherwise, without a right-to-reply, is unfair and incorrect. I take it personally as you seeking to supress or chastise me.
- Of course, Whistler will have the last word: he is a guide.
Whistler did not cut off your right to reply, he simply moved the thread to where it belonged. I don't see why you are throwing a fit over it.
The PCC forum is specifically for discussion regarding PCC and PCC activities. The suggestions forum is for a thread about improving the economy. If the PCC had the power to directly affect the economic systems in place, then that thread would be at home in the PCC forums. Since we do not have that power, your thread boiled down into a well-thought out suggestion, and was moved to the suggestions forum so a larger audience could see and comment on the economic systems you were proposing.
The PCC forum is specifically for discussion regarding PCC and PCC activities. The suggestions forum is for a thread about improving the economy. If the PCC had the power to directly affect the economic systems in place, then that thread would be at home in the PCC forums. Since we do not have that power, your thread boiled down into a well-thought out suggestion, and was moved to the suggestions forum so a larger audience could see and comment on the economic systems you were proposing.
I was actually asking you to be respectful of the work the guides do, as you have affected a presumptuous tone toward us regarding this issue. We correctly placed your thread. Although you have inferred some sort of slight, none was implied.
Your posts were interesting and well thought-out. It's a shame that you felt the need to pull them.
Your posts were interesting and well thought-out. It's a shame that you felt the need to pull them.
When I had moved this thread, there were several posts suggesting this post be moved from PCC to Suggestions because it was the appropriate place for this thread, I agreed with them and moved the thread to Suggestions. My opinion on this matter is more or less identical to Whistler's.
Damn- I just came in here to read the original post in detail. I had skimmed it when it was in PCC, but didn't have time to absorb it then. Could you email it to me (michael(at)guildsoftware(dot)com) if you don't want it in here?