Forums » Suggestions
Message type: bcc\\publication
Publication type: subscriber
Author: Dr. Thalmus Veroshen, UIT Ph.D.
Subject: 'Economics, Manufacture, and You: Part 1(of 3)'
[no header]
[main body format='text\plaintext']
Abstract:
This is the first of three brief articles that should serve as an introduction into modern economics, manufacturing, and how everyone is related to it.
Main:
As the Economics department head at VonNeumann University(colloquilly known as TPGU), I often am asked questions about how they fit into the Big Picture of the UIT- and even universal- economy. This series is to serve as a brief primer into how things work and where people fit into things. The first article is a general(though admittedly quick, brutal, and overgeneralized) primer into today's economics.
When it was thought up, milennia ago, economics was declared to be ran by two basic concepts, supply and demand. This model was easy to understand, you have only so much of a product people can produce and so much of a product people wish to purchase. This drives the price of a product. However, around 2,400 years ago and with the invention of computer networks, Economics was split into two directions, Limited and Unlimited. Limited Economics is the same supply and demand study as before, but Unlimited is, simply, the study of demand when supply is infinite. This series will focus on Limited goods, but every once in a while will have to refer to Unlimited goods(which are mostly digital in nature).
All limited goods start their life as raw materials- either as ores and minerals, harvested organics, or human labor and services. At each stage certain resources enter what is effectively presented as a "box" and on the other end more 'refined' goods are produced. (Sorry for the crude pictures, I'm not so great at image creation)
Goods produced are either sold, or used as materials for a more "refined" good. But what happens when goods are put inside that box? How does this relate to people on an individual level? That's what this series intends to address. Stay tuned!
[:end]
The more practical should note that this series is intended as a overall suggestion of how things should be.
Publication type: subscriber
Author: Dr. Thalmus Veroshen, UIT Ph.D.
Subject: 'Economics, Manufacture, and You: Part 1(of 3)'
[no header]
[main body format='text\plaintext']
Abstract:
This is the first of three brief articles that should serve as an introduction into modern economics, manufacturing, and how everyone is related to it.
Main:
As the Economics department head at VonNeumann University(colloquilly known as TPGU), I often am asked questions about how they fit into the Big Picture of the UIT- and even universal- economy. This series is to serve as a brief primer into how things work and where people fit into things. The first article is a general(though admittedly quick, brutal, and overgeneralized) primer into today's economics.
When it was thought up, milennia ago, economics was declared to be ran by two basic concepts, supply and demand. This model was easy to understand, you have only so much of a product people can produce and so much of a product people wish to purchase. This drives the price of a product. However, around 2,400 years ago and with the invention of computer networks, Economics was split into two directions, Limited and Unlimited. Limited Economics is the same supply and demand study as before, but Unlimited is, simply, the study of demand when supply is infinite. This series will focus on Limited goods, but every once in a while will have to refer to Unlimited goods(which are mostly digital in nature).
All limited goods start their life as raw materials- either as ores and minerals, harvested organics, or human labor and services. At each stage certain resources enter what is effectively presented as a "box" and on the other end more 'refined' goods are produced. (Sorry for the crude pictures, I'm not so great at image creation)
Goods produced are either sold, or used as materials for a more "refined" good. But what happens when goods are put inside that box? How does this relate to people on an individual level? That's what this series intends to address. Stay tuned!
[:end]
The more practical should note that this series is intended as a overall suggestion of how things should be.
For images, try the trial of this product.
http://www.pacestar.com/edge/index.html
I suspect you would have put more detail in if it was easy.
http://www.pacestar.com/edge/index.html
I suspect you would have put more detail in if it was easy.
Are you saying that everything must be made in boxes? What if I want a cylinder?
/me wants one of the LeberBuckets.
For images, instead of using a commercial product, try having a look at http://www.gnome.org/projects/dia/
Its called Dia, runs on Windows and Linux (and probs Mac as well but I'm not sure) and is absolutely ideal for flow charts and so on.
Its called Dia, runs on Windows and Linux (and probs Mac as well but I'm not sure) and is absolutely ideal for flow charts and so on.
Just tried to install dia for windows, TWICE. HA!
"This application has failed to start because..... Re-installing the application may fix this problem."
"This application has failed to start because..... Re-installing the application may fix this problem."
Thats odd, I've never had a problem with it? What was the reason it didn't work?
Yay for pink buckets and thread hijacking!
We now return you to your normally-scheduled discussion on Economics...
We now return you to your normally-scheduled discussion on Economics...
Message type: bcc\\publication
Publication type: subscriber
Author: Dr. Thalmus Veroshen, UIT Ph.D.
Subject: 'Economics, Manufacture, and You: Part 2(of 3)'
[no header]
[main body format='text\plaintext']
Abstract:
This is the second of three brief articles that should serve as an introduction into modern economics, manufacturing, and how everyone is related to it.
Main:
In the previous article of the series, I mentioned a sort of "black box" in which materials and services combined to form goods out the other end. This article will focus on the innards of this black box.
Services, in this context, can be loosely defined as "work that increases the value of a collection of materials". Services determine the type, and quality, of the output of the entire manufacturing process. For example, assume we have five units of Xithricite ore, two units of VanAzek ore, and one unit of Ferric ore and wish to produce XiRite armor plating. The Ferric, Xithricite, and VanAzek ores would constitute the materials for the finished good, while refining and combining the materials would constitute the services needed.
However, not all manufactured goods are equal, and can vary widely in quality. The ores used may not be refined well enough, the mixture not absolutely optimal, poor quality control testing, etc. For comparison purposes, we'll assign a percentage representing the "quality" of a good or material. Naturally, if you invest services into goods or materials, their quality tends to rise. However, you do meet diminishing returns at various points with various goods.
Going back to our XiRite plating example, let's assign the following qualities to our ores and follow them through the manufacturing process.
Ferric ore: 81.5% quality x1
Xithricite ore: 42.3% quality x5
VanAzek ore: 95.0% quality x2
As you can see, our Ferric ore is mediocre at best, the Xithricite ore is absolutely horrible, and the VanAzek is really good. Say Mr. Faronish Yashunen doesn't like the poor quality of his Xithricite, but he got it cheap and has extra, so he puts it through a rough-refining process before sending the ore through a lower-yield, higher quality process.
Xithricite x5, qual 42.3% -> Rough Refining Process (94.7% quality)1 -> Xithricite x3.7, qual 89.7%.
Now that our Faronish has much higher quality Xithricite, they wish to produce a Xirite plate. The material cost of this plate would be affected by the quality of materials(ores), lossage of the manufacturing process, and, unfortunately, corruption of the local station workers. The manufacturing process would produce a plate of a certain quality, which will be assigned in the next article. Plates of different qualities would perform differently in different applications, naturally.
In the next article I'll wrap everything up with what this means to those that are selling these goods(and services!), how quality ties into things, and how all this affects the movement of finished and unfinished goods through the market.
1 Services, especially labor, also have a quality rating. The percentage loss for the rough refining process can be expressed with the equation 3√(process quality - 100). For the life of me I can't remember the formula I wanted to use for percentage quality gain. I'll try to include it with the next article.
[:end]
Publication type: subscriber
Author: Dr. Thalmus Veroshen, UIT Ph.D.
Subject: 'Economics, Manufacture, and You: Part 2(of 3)'
[no header]
[main body format='text\plaintext']
Abstract:
This is the second of three brief articles that should serve as an introduction into modern economics, manufacturing, and how everyone is related to it.
Main:
In the previous article of the series, I mentioned a sort of "black box" in which materials and services combined to form goods out the other end. This article will focus on the innards of this black box.
Services, in this context, can be loosely defined as "work that increases the value of a collection of materials". Services determine the type, and quality, of the output of the entire manufacturing process. For example, assume we have five units of Xithricite ore, two units of VanAzek ore, and one unit of Ferric ore and wish to produce XiRite armor plating. The Ferric, Xithricite, and VanAzek ores would constitute the materials for the finished good, while refining and combining the materials would constitute the services needed.
However, not all manufactured goods are equal, and can vary widely in quality. The ores used may not be refined well enough, the mixture not absolutely optimal, poor quality control testing, etc. For comparison purposes, we'll assign a percentage representing the "quality" of a good or material. Naturally, if you invest services into goods or materials, their quality tends to rise. However, you do meet diminishing returns at various points with various goods.
Going back to our XiRite plating example, let's assign the following qualities to our ores and follow them through the manufacturing process.
Ferric ore: 81.5% quality x1
Xithricite ore: 42.3% quality x5
VanAzek ore: 95.0% quality x2
As you can see, our Ferric ore is mediocre at best, the Xithricite ore is absolutely horrible, and the VanAzek is really good. Say Mr. Faronish Yashunen doesn't like the poor quality of his Xithricite, but he got it cheap and has extra, so he puts it through a rough-refining process before sending the ore through a lower-yield, higher quality process.
Xithricite x5, qual 42.3% -> Rough Refining Process (94.7% quality)1 -> Xithricite x3.7, qual 89.7%.
Now that our Faronish has much higher quality Xithricite, they wish to produce a Xirite plate. The material cost of this plate would be affected by the quality of materials(ores), lossage of the manufacturing process, and, unfortunately, corruption of the local station workers. The manufacturing process would produce a plate of a certain quality, which will be assigned in the next article. Plates of different qualities would perform differently in different applications, naturally.
In the next article I'll wrap everything up with what this means to those that are selling these goods(and services!), how quality ties into things, and how all this affects the movement of finished and unfinished goods through the market.
1 Services, especially labor, also have a quality rating. The percentage loss for the rough refining process can be expressed with the equation 3√(process quality - 100). For the life of me I can't remember the formula I wanted to use for percentage quality gain. I'll try to include it with the next article.
[:end]
I just think it's funny Leber got called a square.
Especially since that shape is CLEARLY a mint-green rectangle. And, no comments from the non-playing lurkers, professor! ;)
I'm trying to listen to Dr. Thalmus Veroshen.
I'm trying to listen to Dr. Thalmus Veroshen.
Is the good doctor going to deal with fully:
"Economics was split into two directions, Limited and Unlimited. Limited Economics is the same supply and demand study as before, but Unlimited is, simply, the study of demand when supply is infinite."
It is trivial to balance manufacture, supply and demand, as well as item value based on input for resources into the "black box", with the usual appropriate 30-50% markup. What is tricky, or sometimes seemingly impossible, the is dealing with the unlimited supply issue, as it relates to MMORPGS. The system itself in most cases actually creates wealth,(unlimited trade, unlimited mission 's, etc) thus leading to the problem of continuous, and potential hyper inflation across the board, making people entering the systems effort worth far less than those that were in when the system was first turned on.
I would like to hear what his opinions on that are, I have a few of my own, but will save them for the debate that is sure to follow.
"Economics was split into two directions, Limited and Unlimited. Limited Economics is the same supply and demand study as before, but Unlimited is, simply, the study of demand when supply is infinite."
It is trivial to balance manufacture, supply and demand, as well as item value based on input for resources into the "black box", with the usual appropriate 30-50% markup. What is tricky, or sometimes seemingly impossible, the is dealing with the unlimited supply issue, as it relates to MMORPGS. The system itself in most cases actually creates wealth,(unlimited trade, unlimited mission 's, etc) thus leading to the problem of continuous, and potential hyper inflation across the board, making people entering the systems effort worth far less than those that were in when the system was first turned on.
I would like to hear what his opinions on that are, I have a few of my own, but will save them for the debate that is sure to follow.
Well VO has already an interesting limiting factor for ores. Since the roids heat up it is effectively as if we had a real limited (if very large) supply.
Now one way I see of making the economy stable would be to give each nation (and faction) a limited amount of money they can play with.
What it means is that the Itani, the Serco and the UIT would only have a set amount of funds to pay for missions. That amount would not be fixied but dependent on something that the Nation (or faction) owns. For example since all we got right now are roid fields. Each station near a roid field would give the faction say 90% of the value of the roid. Each unnocupied sector would give say 1-3% of the roids value to the nation.
Now come the interesting question of how do you evaluate a roid? One way could be to evaluate it's value on say a monthly basis. So for example a 100% iron roid that can be mined for 100 cus using a 1;1 beam until it hits 100k. Then it need 1 day to cool off. So that roid would be worth 28*100 cus of iron.
Though I do wonder if that system would not be way too complicated...
Now one way I see of making the economy stable would be to give each nation (and faction) a limited amount of money they can play with.
What it means is that the Itani, the Serco and the UIT would only have a set amount of funds to pay for missions. That amount would not be fixied but dependent on something that the Nation (or faction) owns. For example since all we got right now are roid fields. Each station near a roid field would give the faction say 90% of the value of the roid. Each unnocupied sector would give say 1-3% of the roids value to the nation.
Now come the interesting question of how do you evaluate a roid? One way could be to evaluate it's value on say a monthly basis. So for example a 100% iron roid that can be mined for 100 cus using a 1;1 beam until it hits 100k. Then it need 1 day to cool off. So that roid would be worth 28*100 cus of iron.
Though I do wonder if that system would not be way too complicated...
I really think that in the VO world of economics, you need to either let it go 100% free market, or keep it under tight artificial dev control.
I think going halfway will indeed lead to runaway inflation and "Things That Do Not Make Sense."
I say: Let the free market loose upon the universe! A brief period of instability will soon be replaced by a self-sustaining and self-regulating market for goods and services.
I think going halfway will indeed lead to runaway inflation and "Things That Do Not Make Sense."
I say: Let the free market loose upon the universe! A brief period of instability will soon be replaced by a self-sustaining and self-regulating market for goods and services.
heh, free market.
It should work, money will be worth less and less though.
Unless we get something productive to spend it on.
It should work, money will be worth less and less though.
Unless we get something productive to spend it on.
Money isn't worth anything the way it is now.
As for the 100% free market: No. Because with every new player, you have the same problem you mentioned, LeberMac. Granted, maybe not everyone, but even if it's only 33.3% of the population who starts to manufacture, we have enough Things That Do Not Make Sense. Another thing is that real-life economic theory cannot fully apply to VO, I think, since some of the influential factors do not exist (e.g.: poverty/bankruptcy/loss of one's ability to sustain one's own life) it doesn't *really* hurt to lose lots of money, and it still won't, even if the value of money goes back up).
We could give it a try and look how it goes, but I think it'd go awry. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, however, since it'd require less man-hours from the devs that way.
As for the 100% free market: No. Because with every new player, you have the same problem you mentioned, LeberMac. Granted, maybe not everyone, but even if it's only 33.3% of the population who starts to manufacture, we have enough Things That Do Not Make Sense. Another thing is that real-life economic theory cannot fully apply to VO, I think, since some of the influential factors do not exist (e.g.: poverty/bankruptcy/loss of one's ability to sustain one's own life) it doesn't *really* hurt to lose lots of money, and it still won't, even if the value of money goes back up).
We could give it a try and look how it goes, but I think it'd go awry. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, however, since it'd require less man-hours from the devs that way.
I disagree a 100% free market should work.
If too many people produce stuff then their value will drop so low that no one will be buying em.
All you have to do is set the parameters just right for the available population. Ressources MUST be limited, both the ones you can get and the amount of money in circulation (though the amount of money in circulation will be rising slowly).
The hive is a GREAT way to limit ressources. It should be made into a real power, capable of controlling it's own zones (hell I'd even let players choose to play hive side). As I said before 'roids heat up making it already a good limiting factor. Now if you add in the hive that would follow an algorithm that would make it more and more agressive as humans enroach on what it sees as its territory and you have a very interesting dynamic.
And if you do that then you would have the miners/manufacturers that would be creating wealth, weapons, ships etc... and the warriors that would protect said manufacturers. And they would be handsomely paid. But they would also die a lot, thus completing the circle of money life!
If there is one thing that WoW does very well is force people to play in teams. Sure you can be a loner but it's so much more fun with a group. And it would be great if the same dynamic for group play could be instilled into VO.
I do understand that a true economy is hard to make and to run, but that is one of the things that drew me to VO, the potential for having that.
As for the argument of every new player creating an uncontrolled inflation, it shouldn't if the limiting factors are well set in place.
Edit: corrected a couple of mistakes.
If too many people produce stuff then their value will drop so low that no one will be buying em.
All you have to do is set the parameters just right for the available population. Ressources MUST be limited, both the ones you can get and the amount of money in circulation (though the amount of money in circulation will be rising slowly).
The hive is a GREAT way to limit ressources. It should be made into a real power, capable of controlling it's own zones (hell I'd even let players choose to play hive side). As I said before 'roids heat up making it already a good limiting factor. Now if you add in the hive that would follow an algorithm that would make it more and more agressive as humans enroach on what it sees as its territory and you have a very interesting dynamic.
And if you do that then you would have the miners/manufacturers that would be creating wealth, weapons, ships etc... and the warriors that would protect said manufacturers. And they would be handsomely paid. But they would also die a lot, thus completing the circle of money life!
If there is one thing that WoW does very well is force people to play in teams. Sure you can be a loner but it's so much more fun with a group. And it would be great if the same dynamic for group play could be instilled into VO.
I do understand that a true economy is hard to make and to run, but that is one of the things that drew me to VO, the potential for having that.
As for the argument of every new player creating an uncontrolled inflation, it shouldn't if the limiting factors are well set in place.
Edit: corrected a couple of mistakes.
"edit:corrected a couple of mistakes"
You forgot how to spell resources as well.
As for this thread, there is a gargantuan one waiting in the dark... Dare I bring it back?
You forgot how to spell resources as well.
As for this thread, there is a gargantuan one waiting in the dark... Dare I bring it back?
No it's too big to read, which is why I think this one was started no?
as for the mistakes... well english is my fourth language cut me some slack. (and yes I know I could use firefox, but Safari FTW!)
as for the mistakes... well english is my fourth language cut me some slack. (and yes I know I could use firefox, but Safari FTW!)