Forums » Role Playing
Ok, sorry I continued that Food for thought thread. But the chat conversation between Maso and myself (as commanders of the 2 guilds) was useful, and completely lacking in flames.
It got to the heart of a recent problem, being the question of whether or not honor has a place in grey space.
With the FM's approval, I'd like to repost that convo in a thread that isn't going to sink like a stone (read here),
I think we need to talk about these things. Because its not piracy that will make people consider doing something else with their time, its rudeness and elitism.
People can accept a pirate, as long as they are good natured. (Everybody dies in this game right?)
But when people stop playing this so as EVERYONE has fun, that's where there's a problem. And this problem can easily be created by people(Pirate, Pirate-hunter, Serco, Itani, and UIT alike) who don't take the time to play like they would like to see others play.
I'm not asking for the devs to institute standards (By somehow forcing people into artificial controls), I'd like to think that people are capable of creating that honor system on their own.
EDIT: Seems as good a place as any to add that Shape is really more of an outlaw than a pirate. I don't do that much pirating, I'm perpetually poor, and whenever I HAVE money, I tend to give it to whomever needs it.
(I've also never killed an innocent soul, put them in an escape pod perhaps and liquidated their ship, but that's about it)
It got to the heart of a recent problem, being the question of whether or not honor has a place in grey space.
With the FM's approval, I'd like to repost that convo in a thread that isn't going to sink like a stone (read here),
I think we need to talk about these things. Because its not piracy that will make people consider doing something else with their time, its rudeness and elitism.
People can accept a pirate, as long as they are good natured. (Everybody dies in this game right?)
But when people stop playing this so as EVERYONE has fun, that's where there's a problem. And this problem can easily be created by people(Pirate, Pirate-hunter, Serco, Itani, and UIT alike) who don't take the time to play like they would like to see others play.
I'm not asking for the devs to institute standards (By somehow forcing people into artificial controls), I'd like to think that people are capable of creating that honor system on their own.
EDIT: Seems as good a place as any to add that Shape is really more of an outlaw than a pirate. I don't do that much pirating, I'm perpetually poor, and whenever I HAVE money, I tend to give it to whomever needs it.
(I've also never killed an innocent soul, put them in an escape pod perhaps and liquidated their ship, but that's about it)
<quote>I think we need to talk about these things. Because its not piracy that will make people consider doing something else with their time, its rudeness and elitism. [...]<quote>
I am not an angel, like no one else is ... but imo it is the rudeness, which has grown since the release, it is what i call bad behaviour. There was a good example for what i am talking about last night (night in europe). A player got shot and starts complaining, another player catched the ball and they started discussing in 100 about this person (who was still online) as if the person wasn't there.
I wonder, if they would act this way in real life too - maybe. But if real life or vendetta, bad behaviour is bad behaviour.
I am sure, everyone of us can bring tons of examples for rudeness/bad behaviour. Seems, when people log on into a game they leave not only the world behind, they lose - if they ever have it - their moral and ethic.
<quote>I'm not asking for the devs to institute standards [...]<quote>
Shape, you are talking about standards ... what about the "unwritten" standard i learned since 1997 when i joined newsgroups, mailinglists, chats ... whatever you want: _never_ publish part of communication you had with other people. If you have done this on one of the mls, i am subscribed, you would have got locked out without a warning. And publishing a personal talk in a public forum without asking the other if s/he allows that ... hmmm ... sorry, words missing for what it is, but i think everyone knows what i mean.
Linda (-:
I am not an angel, like no one else is ... but imo it is the rudeness, which has grown since the release, it is what i call bad behaviour. There was a good example for what i am talking about last night (night in europe). A player got shot and starts complaining, another player catched the ball and they started discussing in 100 about this person (who was still online) as if the person wasn't there.
I wonder, if they would act this way in real life too - maybe. But if real life or vendetta, bad behaviour is bad behaviour.
I am sure, everyone of us can bring tons of examples for rudeness/bad behaviour. Seems, when people log on into a game they leave not only the world behind, they lose - if they ever have it - their moral and ethic.
<quote>I'm not asking for the devs to institute standards [...]<quote>
Shape, you are talking about standards ... what about the "unwritten" standard i learned since 1997 when i joined newsgroups, mailinglists, chats ... whatever you want: _never_ publish part of communication you had with other people. If you have done this on one of the mls, i am subscribed, you would have got locked out without a warning. And publishing a personal talk in a public forum without asking the other if s/he allows that ... hmmm ... sorry, words missing for what it is, but i think everyone knows what i mean.
Linda (-:
Well, I'm pretty sure (at least I hope) that the thread was not locked because I publicized that communique. I only posted it because it was kind've an official VPR-BLAK communication.
And it put our respective philosophies on the matter into perspective. I wasn't using it to attack Maso (which you'll note I did not do at all), I was just bringing everyone else up to speed with our understanding to date.
As far as the "never publishing communication" rule. I've never heard it described in quite the extreme you're discussing. I always believed that that applied to conversational material that was inflammatory.
And it put our respective philosophies on the matter into perspective. I wasn't using it to attack Maso (which you'll note I did not do at all), I was just bringing everyone else up to speed with our understanding to date.
As far as the "never publishing communication" rule. I've never heard it described in quite the extreme you're discussing. I always believed that that applied to conversational material that was inflammatory.
Shape,
I am not amused about the whole thing. The chat log you have posted was really about your attempts to impose certain standards on other people; I wonder who told you that it is up to you to define for now and forever what good and bad behavior is. Conclusions drawn from this chat log about my own standards are invalid; there was a reason why I pointed out that I might play advocatus diaboli in this chat; the log doesn't really say anything about my own views. My main problem is that you and your gang demonstrate rather questionable behaviour when it comes to communicating with others (just to pick up your elitism and rudeness ideas). You keep abusing in particular these fora in the attempt to give people a bad reputation or just to pick on them for the sake of doing it. The "Food for Thought" thread is a nice example for that, where you and your fellows just hijacked a thread to rail against me. You are not interested in consent, you just push other people around. And, Shape, I have to agree with Lin. You have published private chat here; it wasn't to any extent an official communication. From my perspective, this is intolerable. Whatever, it was rather clear that you try to exculpate yourself with specious arguments.
Ok, I am tired of this...Go on badmouting me...I will hopefully abstain from reacting to it.
/maso
I am not amused about the whole thing. The chat log you have posted was really about your attempts to impose certain standards on other people; I wonder who told you that it is up to you to define for now and forever what good and bad behavior is. Conclusions drawn from this chat log about my own standards are invalid; there was a reason why I pointed out that I might play advocatus diaboli in this chat; the log doesn't really say anything about my own views. My main problem is that you and your gang demonstrate rather questionable behaviour when it comes to communicating with others (just to pick up your elitism and rudeness ideas). You keep abusing in particular these fora in the attempt to give people a bad reputation or just to pick on them for the sake of doing it. The "Food for Thought" thread is a nice example for that, where you and your fellows just hijacked a thread to rail against me. You are not interested in consent, you just push other people around. And, Shape, I have to agree with Lin. You have published private chat here; it wasn't to any extent an official communication. From my perspective, this is intolerable. Whatever, it was rather clear that you try to exculpate yourself with specious arguments.
Ok, I am tired of this...Go on badmouting me...I will hopefully abstain from reacting to it.
/maso
> I'd like to repost that convo in a thread that isn't going to sink like a stone
Well, that lasted about three posts.
-:sigma.SB
Well, that lasted about three posts.
-:sigma.SB
My main issue that I mentioned in the previous thread, and I'll try and be good and keep myself clean in this one, is people who.
1) Refuse to accept responsibilities for their actions in game. If I do something bad then I'll stick my hand up and admit it. I'll also offer the person I wronged compensation if I think they need it.
2) Feel that they are entitled to make personal attacks against others outside the spirit of roleplaying. I consider myself and pretty well all of BLAK to be pretty friendly, relaxed players. Yes we're competitive, but I believe we try not to be rude and inconsiderate to other players. If someone's copping ire from us they've done something to deserve it.
Yes BLAK has standards and we try to stick to them. I think very few people have issues with us over our standards. They will be breached occasionally because that's kind of inevitable, especially in such a fluctuating game but we do make the effort.
1) Refuse to accept responsibilities for their actions in game. If I do something bad then I'll stick my hand up and admit it. I'll also offer the person I wronged compensation if I think they need it.
2) Feel that they are entitled to make personal attacks against others outside the spirit of roleplaying. I consider myself and pretty well all of BLAK to be pretty friendly, relaxed players. Yes we're competitive, but I believe we try not to be rude and inconsiderate to other players. If someone's copping ire from us they've done something to deserve it.
Yes BLAK has standards and we try to stick to them. I think very few people have issues with us over our standards. They will be breached occasionally because that's kind of inevitable, especially in such a fluctuating game but we do make the effort.
Hello!
I am n00b, the violently elitist n00b!
This is the (almost) end of my post, since it would seem that anything else I could possibly say would probably go away soon!
PS: if you really need someone to tell you that you should always ask people's permissions before posting your conversations with them, then
a) Sue your parents
b) check yourself into a jail
I am n00b, the violently elitist n00b!
This is the (almost) end of my post, since it would seem that anything else I could possibly say would probably go away soon!
PS: if you really need someone to tell you that you should always ask people's permissions before posting your conversations with them, then
a) Sue your parents
b) check yourself into a jail
*So, publish your transcripts. It won't exhibit any contradictions to anything I have claimed so far. I have no reason to fear your "accusations". And Martin, btw., I cannot get flares at Orion stations.*
Quote from the locked thread. Permission granted.
Quote from the locked thread. Permission granted.
Hey man, I'm not about to sludge through two pages of newbie bullshit just to see if my post scriptum makes any sense! All I have to go on here is this:
Shape said:
As far as the "never publishing communication" rule. I've never heard it described in quite the extreme you're discussing. I always believed that that applied to conversational material that was inflammatory.
(Which, by the way, made me squirt tea up my nose in a fit of unsupressable pained laughter. This sort of thing really makes you wonder about the death of fascism and whatnot...)
Shape said:
As far as the "never publishing communication" rule. I've never heard it described in quite the extreme you're discussing. I always believed that that applied to conversational material that was inflammatory.
(Which, by the way, made me squirt tea up my nose in a fit of unsupressable pained laughter. This sort of thing really makes you wonder about the death of fascism and whatnot...)
<quote>As far as the "never publishing communication" rule. I've never heard it described in quite the extreme you're discussing. I always believed that that applied to conversational material that was inflammatory.<quote>
Sorry, but publishing conversations or content from a mailinglist is a nono ... so i have learned, accepted it and does not only include flames.
If it will become state of the art here that everyone starts posting private, guild or group-chatlogs or parts of them, then everyone should think twice about what s/he says. A bit uncomfortable ... but maybe it helps preventing the rudeness and bad behaviour <trying to find the way back to Shape's startingpoint>
Linda (-:
Sorry, but publishing conversations or content from a mailinglist is a nono ... so i have learned, accepted it and does not only include flames.
If it will become state of the art here that everyone starts posting private, guild or group-chatlogs or parts of them, then everyone should think twice about what s/he says. A bit uncomfortable ... but maybe it helps preventing the rudeness and bad behaviour <trying to find the way back to Shape's startingpoint>
Linda (-:
Maso,
I'm sorry you're so angry, and I will talk to my guild about what happened in that thread, as it got completely out of hand.
As far as me "wanting to impose standards on everyone else"
and
"I wonder who told you that it is up to you to define for now and forever what good and bad behavior is. ",
I think you're getting TOO angry here. I never said I was going to impose standards, rather that by example I hoped others would adopt them.
Deciding forever? Hardly. I hoped people would fill in for me, and work out what is good or bad to develop a system of honor.
As far as that chat, NOTHING was taken out of context, it was a conversation in its entireity.
I'm not trying to pick on you at all. I'm NOT trying to give you a bad rep. I honestly would rather you're not pissed off. The more people I piss off ingame, the LESS fun it is to play it. I'm not going to spend my time hatching plots about how to discredit VPR's, its just not worth it.
My point is simple, if you think about how you play, try to take up the golden rule:
Play with others as you would want to see players play with you.
Again, I'm sorry that that thread was hijacked. But you're blowing up at the wrong person.
Martin, Holden, Sebastian, all the other guys at BLAK. They're not my "minions". I don't control what they say. And, find in that thread, Maso, ONE point at which I badmouthed you.
I certainly disagree with you regarding setting up standards in Grey space. But you argued to the contrary in the convo.
That was pretty much all we talked about.
But if you don't want to see it, I certainly won't post it again.
me grumbles something about freedom of bloody information.
I'm sorry you're so angry, and I will talk to my guild about what happened in that thread, as it got completely out of hand.
As far as me "wanting to impose standards on everyone else"
and
"I wonder who told you that it is up to you to define for now and forever what good and bad behavior is. ",
I think you're getting TOO angry here. I never said I was going to impose standards, rather that by example I hoped others would adopt them.
Deciding forever? Hardly. I hoped people would fill in for me, and work out what is good or bad to develop a system of honor.
As far as that chat, NOTHING was taken out of context, it was a conversation in its entireity.
I'm not trying to pick on you at all. I'm NOT trying to give you a bad rep. I honestly would rather you're not pissed off. The more people I piss off ingame, the LESS fun it is to play it. I'm not going to spend my time hatching plots about how to discredit VPR's, its just not worth it.
My point is simple, if you think about how you play, try to take up the golden rule:
Play with others as you would want to see players play with you.
Again, I'm sorry that that thread was hijacked. But you're blowing up at the wrong person.
Martin, Holden, Sebastian, all the other guys at BLAK. They're not my "minions". I don't control what they say. And, find in that thread, Maso, ONE point at which I badmouthed you.
I certainly disagree with you regarding setting up standards in Grey space. But you argued to the contrary in the convo.
That was pretty much all we talked about.
But if you don't want to see it, I certainly won't post it again.
me grumbles something about freedom of bloody information.
<quote>me grumbles something about freedom of bloody information.<quote>
Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters. [Rosa Luxemburg]
and
One is always free at the cost of another. [Albert Camus]
Freedom is always the freedom of dissenters. [Rosa Luxemburg]
and
One is always free at the cost of another. [Albert Camus]
Funny, I read maso's post as being calm, collected, and rather final. You, on the other hand, strike me as a person that enjoys the attention you get from "fun" thread like this.
Anyway, my point is, the last thread was locked for a reason, and if you really expected a continuation of it to be nice and happy, you sir, are [edit by Moderator: mistaken].
PS:
I think a bit of maso's post should get repeated! Weeee!
The chat log you have posted was really about your attempts to impose certain standards on other people; I wonder who told you that it is up to you to define for now and forever what good and bad behavior is.
Anyway, my point is, the last thread was locked for a reason, and if you really expected a continuation of it to be nice and happy, you sir, are [edit by Moderator: mistaken].
PS:
I think a bit of maso's post should get repeated! Weeee!
The chat log you have posted was really about your attempts to impose certain standards on other people; I wonder who told you that it is up to you to define for now and forever what good and bad behavior is.
(quote)You are not interested in consent, you just push other people around.(/quote)
genka, this strikes you as calm and collected?
EDIT:
And this ISN'T a continuation of that thread. That thread was mindless, it HAS no logical continuation.
This was a thread trying to address a great deal of frustration that seems to occur because people have drastically different standards of honor.
(and genka, I have no idea why you have such a beef with me, and I'm sure you'll tell me in your next post, along with how I'm just a sponge in a big vat of me.)
FURTHER EDIT:
@Maso:
And if you WERE playing devils advocate, please come out and say so. Along with your actual opinions on the subject, as it will clear this all up a lot faster than any posturing.
genka, this strikes you as calm and collected?
EDIT:
And this ISN'T a continuation of that thread. That thread was mindless, it HAS no logical continuation.
This was a thread trying to address a great deal of frustration that seems to occur because people have drastically different standards of honor.
(and genka, I have no idea why you have such a beef with me, and I'm sure you'll tell me in your next post, along with how I'm just a sponge in a big vat of me.)
FURTHER EDIT:
@Maso:
And if you WERE playing devils advocate, please come out and say so. Along with your actual opinions on the subject, as it will clear this all up a lot faster than any posturing.
> You, on the other hand, strike me as a person that enjoys the attention you get from
> "fun" thread like this.
Am I the only person who sees the irony here?
-:sigma.SB
> "fun" thread like this.
Am I the only person who sees the irony here?
-:sigma.SB
Why, yes, it does! It also strikes me as a statement of fact!
My beef with you stems from your narcissism and condescending arrogance! Also! You seem to be brutally ignorant! Weee!
As far as the thread goes, so far I see two points about it which make it slightly better than the other one:
Maso's post
The fact that it's a bit shorter
Edit:
Congradumalations Solra! A for the day! Next week in class, we'll be covering the use of sarcasm and blatant lies in inflammatory literature!!
My beef with you stems from your narcissism and condescending arrogance! Also! You seem to be brutally ignorant! Weee!
As far as the thread goes, so far I see two points about it which make it slightly better than the other one:
Maso's post
The fact that it's a bit shorter
Edit:
Congradumalations Solra! A for the day! Next week in class, we'll be covering the use of sarcasm and blatant lies in inflammatory literature!!
Sorry to interrupt the lynching for one second:
@ Martin: based on my ingame experience and what my guildmates tell about theirs, BLAK seems to rather succeed in sticking to their standards. Don't change that.
End of interruption
@ Martin: based on my ingame experience and what my guildmates tell about theirs, BLAK seems to rather succeed in sticking to their standards. Don't change that.
End of interruption
AND NOW we return to the public lynching of Shape for daring to discuss possible standards of honor that guilds might take up in grey space, lets go to our man at the pulpit... Bob?
Bob: well, its clear that Shape's motives for posting that thread were defamatory in nature, and only serving to puff up his own personal self-image. There's really no other way to see it... More to come Jim!
Bob: well, its clear that Shape's motives for posting that thread were defamatory in nature, and only serving to puff up his own personal self-image. There's really no other way to see it... More to come Jim!
"I'm just a sponge in a big vat of me."
ROFLMAO!!!
hahahahahahahahah.....
just thought it was really funny if you couldn't tell...
ROFLMAO!!!
hahahahahahahahah.....
just thought it was really funny if you couldn't tell...
You want standards... you can't handle standards. Blah. :)
In my opinion, sometimes the behaviour of certain members of BLAK is... questionable. Most of BLAK I get along fine with, and we fight for fun. And I only fight for fun, I'm not in it to ruin someone's day, to blow someone up when they're 5 hops thru a 9 hop procurement run, etc. I won't hop in on an uneven fight (2 on 1, prom vs anything). This is just how I play the game I guess...
Most people respect that, I think. But then you get some people who don't even give you the customary "yarr" before trying to blow you out of the sky, and then run like hell when you're about to blow them out of the sky. That, IMO, isn't cool at all.
In my opinion, sometimes the behaviour of certain members of BLAK is... questionable. Most of BLAK I get along fine with, and we fight for fun. And I only fight for fun, I'm not in it to ruin someone's day, to blow someone up when they're 5 hops thru a 9 hop procurement run, etc. I won't hop in on an uneven fight (2 on 1, prom vs anything). This is just how I play the game I guess...
Most people respect that, I think. But then you get some people who don't even give you the customary "yarr" before trying to blow you out of the sky, and then run like hell when you're about to blow them out of the sky. That, IMO, isn't cool at all.