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Hoban is correct in that one can be banned from a thread. This is outlined in the Be Nice post. It is a fairly recent addition.
@Xeha:
"@Whistler
Im sry if that was too rude. I understand its a pain to moderate. I was nice and all and my thread got locked, hence i tried it the other way (sad, i know...). Thanks for deleting the offending posts. Regarding the "Be Nice" rules, most of the threads should have been deleted immediately, hence i felt recreating a thread is just a minor thing. "
You took the locking of "your" thread personally, but you must realize that once a thread is started it's not yours anymore. Then you "tried it the other way"and felt justified in disregarding the Be Nice rules. Can you see how your actions contribute to the atmosphere you are concerned about? What will you do differently in order to bring change?
@Xeha:
"@Whistler
Im sry if that was too rude. I understand its a pain to moderate. I was nice and all and my thread got locked, hence i tried it the other way (sad, i know...). Thanks for deleting the offending posts. Regarding the "Be Nice" rules, most of the threads should have been deleted immediately, hence i felt recreating a thread is just a minor thing. "
You took the locking of "your" thread personally, but you must realize that once a thread is started it's not yours anymore. Then you "tried it the other way"and felt justified in disregarding the Be Nice rules. Can you see how your actions contribute to the atmosphere you are concerned about? What will you do differently in order to bring change?
The golden rule comes to mind.
HtH
HtH
@Xeha:
You think you can push for a change, in here? I think you are rather naive. Allow me to explain.
Psychology 101: there are personality types that just don't mesh well with each other, aside from dysfunctional childhood leading to antisocial, maladaptive behavior in adulthood.
In real life, usually when you meet those kind of people, you can avoid them and never see them again. However, when it comes to commitments like work and school, there are people that you need to deal with on a daily basis. You just make concessions and try to get along since it's easier to do that than to leave and look for another school or job.
In online MMO games, there is no incentive like that to get along with anyone. People play games for entertainment, not to learn new social skills. If a game does not meet their expectations, they simply move on to another game. Either someone else contributes to your entertainment, or he does not. Most MMO games are big enough that you can actually leave and find another area or hop to another world, and never bump into that annoying person again. VO is different because it's so small. Everything and everyone are crammed together into a single, small instance. People with sense of self entitlement, too much time on their hands, and personality conflicts, all shoved into a single small room? *BOOOOOM* Intense negative feelings and escalation into physical altercation is a very natural and expected result.
Whining and sobbing about the behavior of others, ESPECIALLY in a MMO game where nobody has an incentive to meet the expectations of others and is only in it for his own entertainment, is counterproductive and a GIANT waste of time.
Incarnate isn't dumb and he knows the price of players leaving, and he has accepted it. In the end of day, VO is a business and customers are replaceable. If you don't like the community, there's no reason to feel guilty about leaving it and finding a game that offers you better entertainment. Otherwise, accept the bad side of VO with the good, if the good side of it makes the bad side worth it. Have no expectations for other people, and find ways to enjoy it with or without them. It's as simple as that.
You think you can push for a change, in here? I think you are rather naive. Allow me to explain.
Psychology 101: there are personality types that just don't mesh well with each other, aside from dysfunctional childhood leading to antisocial, maladaptive behavior in adulthood.
In real life, usually when you meet those kind of people, you can avoid them and never see them again. However, when it comes to commitments like work and school, there are people that you need to deal with on a daily basis. You just make concessions and try to get along since it's easier to do that than to leave and look for another school or job.
In online MMO games, there is no incentive like that to get along with anyone. People play games for entertainment, not to learn new social skills. If a game does not meet their expectations, they simply move on to another game. Either someone else contributes to your entertainment, or he does not. Most MMO games are big enough that you can actually leave and find another area or hop to another world, and never bump into that annoying person again. VO is different because it's so small. Everything and everyone are crammed together into a single, small instance. People with sense of self entitlement, too much time on their hands, and personality conflicts, all shoved into a single small room? *BOOOOOM* Intense negative feelings and escalation into physical altercation is a very natural and expected result.
Whining and sobbing about the behavior of others, ESPECIALLY in a MMO game where nobody has an incentive to meet the expectations of others and is only in it for his own entertainment, is counterproductive and a GIANT waste of time.
Incarnate isn't dumb and he knows the price of players leaving, and he has accepted it. In the end of day, VO is a business and customers are replaceable. If you don't like the community, there's no reason to feel guilty about leaving it and finding a game that offers you better entertainment. Otherwise, accept the bad side of VO with the good, if the good side of it makes the bad side worth it. Have no expectations for other people, and find ways to enjoy it with or without them. It's as simple as that.
"The golden rule comes to mind."
The Golden Rule can be a useful tool when you've got nothing else to go by, but it has some major flaws when you start interacting with people who are different from you. Many instances of friction between people stem from them not realizing that the other person considers their behavior to be rude, since they wouldn't consider it rude themselves. This is most obvious when dealing with people from other cultures, but it's a lot more widespread than that. Even just having different sensitivity levels can lead to problems when it doesn't occur to the tougher individual that anybody could possibly be upset by the way they said something (or that they said it at all). The sensitive one thinks it's just super obvious and the other must be inconsiderate, but in fact it was a completely alien concept to the other guy.
The Golden Rule can be a useful tool when you've got nothing else to go by, but it has some major flaws when you start interacting with people who are different from you. Many instances of friction between people stem from them not realizing that the other person considers their behavior to be rude, since they wouldn't consider it rude themselves. This is most obvious when dealing with people from other cultures, but it's a lot more widespread than that. Even just having different sensitivity levels can lead to problems when it doesn't occur to the tougher individual that anybody could possibly be upset by the way they said something (or that they said it at all). The sensitive one thinks it's just super obvious and the other must be inconsiderate, but in fact it was a completely alien concept to the other guy.
No, rin. The golden rule does not have major flaws. The golden rule ultimately instructs the simple intention, not the complex manifestation of that intention. In other words, if a person from Culture A slaps someone from Culture B in the face to congratulate them for getting married (as is the custom for Culture A), but Culture B person takes offense because that is considered a huge insult, the golden rule still functions properly if person from Culture A is able to receive communication from Culture B person (via a shared language, for instance) that the wrong (and in fact, very insulting message) was instead received. Culture A person would understand the mistake and issue an apology, as he would want someone to do for him in the same situation.
This happens often in these forums where intelligent and respectful debate is occurring.
However, there's a major difference between accidental conflict (misunderstanding) and intentional antagonization. One does not get excused from starting a shitstorm in these forums because they "thought everyone enjoyed shitstorms", or from hassassing people in these forums because they "thought everyone like being harassed". In situations where it has become clear that agitation has been caused, the golden rule (if being followed) would still be expected to be utilized in "repair mode", in that the offender would then extend an apology for the unintended offense.
Now, I suppose you could argue then that there are some out there who don't want apologies from people who offend them. But I think most reasonable people would agree that's highly unusual.
The golden rule is essentially just a simple but powerful guideline to help us remember and/or manage the consequences of the universal law of cause and effect.
Now, should everyone feel like they have to apologize left and right for every little politically incorrect statement they make? Absolutely not. I'm of the belief that we all have a good enough handle on what "decent behavior" is to know when we are doing something we probably should be doing, and if we all followed this the large majority of bullshit drama here would be wiped out. And in case anybody doesn't know what decent behaior is, it's outlined specifically in the RoC and in the Forum Policies. We all know how to act, but some of us chose to ignore these guidelines because "anonymous internet" and "lulz" and, unfortunately, because they are often simply allowed to.
Thank you for reading my honestly written post.
This happens often in these forums where intelligent and respectful debate is occurring.
However, there's a major difference between accidental conflict (misunderstanding) and intentional antagonization. One does not get excused from starting a shitstorm in these forums because they "thought everyone enjoyed shitstorms", or from hassassing people in these forums because they "thought everyone like being harassed". In situations where it has become clear that agitation has been caused, the golden rule (if being followed) would still be expected to be utilized in "repair mode", in that the offender would then extend an apology for the unintended offense.
Now, I suppose you could argue then that there are some out there who don't want apologies from people who offend them. But I think most reasonable people would agree that's highly unusual.
The golden rule is essentially just a simple but powerful guideline to help us remember and/or manage the consequences of the universal law of cause and effect.
Now, should everyone feel like they have to apologize left and right for every little politically incorrect statement they make? Absolutely not. I'm of the belief that we all have a good enough handle on what "decent behavior" is to know when we are doing something we probably should be doing, and if we all followed this the large majority of bullshit drama here would be wiped out. And in case anybody doesn't know what decent behaior is, it's outlined specifically in the RoC and in the Forum Policies. We all know how to act, but some of us chose to ignore these guidelines because "anonymous internet" and "lulz" and, unfortunately, because they are often simply allowed to.
Thank you for reading my honestly written post.
We all know how to act, but some of us chose to ignore these guidelines
Can you tell me with a straight face that this does not include you?
Can you tell me with a straight face that this does not include you?
as much as i'd love to go at it with you,i dont think personalizing this is productive. Lets just say that nobody is perfect.
So, there you have it. Over the last 48 hours since the thread was re-posted: my decisions in moderating were criticized, opinions about "hateful atmosphere" were shared, numerous inappropriate posts were removed, two people were thread-muted, and nobody (not even the OP) said that they would alter their behavior in order to promote a better atmosphere. I think the closest we got was greenwall declining to "go at it" with joylessjoker.
@Whistler
I don't think that Xeha was too rude to you. He was a little pissed off, because his previous thread did not serve its purpose. Xeha used the "please" word and suggested an alternative way to manage this kind of exceptional thread. I think no one has been previously worried about the VO athmosphere.
I know that some cultures says things very straight. I'm from Finland and we say things really straight without the "please, would, ..." softener words. IMO Xeha was not offensive at you. Xeha was disappointed to the solution you made with his first thread.
I tried to select my words very carefully. It's a little hard, because I don't speak natively english. I just translate from Finnish culture to English. If it sounds rude, please don't take it too seriously.
@everyone
Few words to the actual subject. I've shown many faces depending of my mood. e.g. If I'm bored, I might give sarcastic answers to newb questions. In the other hand, I'm very helpful and tolerant. Deep in my heart I don't want to hurt anyone. I wish everyone could join this game. I know that the enjoyment comes from different things for different types of players. Someone likes to talk shit on this forum, someone skips this section and does their thing in space (VO).
I've not been here long enough to determine whether the atmosphere has changed to any direction. But if it has significantly changed to offensive direction, then someone should try to do something with it. That is what I think Xeha tried to do.
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Lanigiro Elbbarcs
I don't think that Xeha was too rude to you. He was a little pissed off, because his previous thread did not serve its purpose. Xeha used the "please" word and suggested an alternative way to manage this kind of exceptional thread. I think no one has been previously worried about the VO athmosphere.
I know that some cultures says things very straight. I'm from Finland and we say things really straight without the "please, would, ..." softener words. IMO Xeha was not offensive at you. Xeha was disappointed to the solution you made with his first thread.
I tried to select my words very carefully. It's a little hard, because I don't speak natively english. I just translate from Finnish culture to English. If it sounds rude, please don't take it too seriously.
@everyone
Few words to the actual subject. I've shown many faces depending of my mood. e.g. If I'm bored, I might give sarcastic answers to newb questions. In the other hand, I'm very helpful and tolerant. Deep in my heart I don't want to hurt anyone. I wish everyone could join this game. I know that the enjoyment comes from different things for different types of players. Someone likes to talk shit on this forum, someone skips this section and does their thing in space (VO).
I've not been here long enough to determine whether the atmosphere has changed to any direction. But if it has significantly changed to offensive direction, then someone should try to do something with it. That is what I think Xeha tried to do.
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Lanigiro Elbbarcs
I am fascinated that so many people have words for me on this, yet very little about themselves. Can you understand that his reposting disregarded the rules, and that he could have been more polite about it in light of that fact? Do you understand that if everyone chooses to act out of irritation for a perceived slight, we have exactly what we have now? I used his behavior as an example of the very thing that he was complaining about. I did not retaliate in any way, and in fact did more to foster the discussion than he has.
You are very wrong about nobody being concerned about the atmosphere. I simply can't do it alone. If you want change, work to make it happen.
You are very wrong about nobody being concerned about the atmosphere. I simply can't do it alone. If you want change, work to make it happen.
For the record I have altered my behavior several times in the past (and that is not the admission of utter guilt that some would like it to be), only to sit and watch others *not*. It's only human nature to express frustration in this regard. I have no problem re-committing to helping to foster a healthier community through strictly adhering to the policies set forth. That said, I alone cannot bear this burden.
@Whistler
I got your point.
It seems that you're becoming a VO celebrity. Everyone wants to talk with you ;)
I got your point.
It seems that you're becoming a VO celebrity. Everyone wants to talk with you ;)
Thanks greenwall, and know that I actually did appreciate your response to joyless as the only example of someone changing their spots. I hope that you will continue to brush off people who try to goad you into old ways.
I agree,we can't do it alone.
@scham: Thanks. To say to me that nobody has previously worried about the VO atmosphere is a little like coming up to a lone fireman battling a forest fire and inquiring as to why nobody is doing anything about it.
I agree,we can't do it alone.
@scham: Thanks. To say to me that nobody has previously worried about the VO atmosphere is a little like coming up to a lone fireman battling a forest fire and inquiring as to why nobody is doing anything about it.
@Whistler
I just have to say, I didn't mean it so. I said "I think no one has been previously worried about the VO athmosphere." because I (and maybe Xeha) was expecting a different way of moderation of "not so usual" kind of thread. I now know you had a good reason to respond the way you did. You have fires to battle and this is wasting your time. I just wanted to get my sayings understood correctly.
I apologize and shut my mouth...
I just have to say, I didn't mean it so. I said "I think no one has been previously worried about the VO athmosphere." because I (and maybe Xeha) was expecting a different way of moderation of "not so usual" kind of thread. I now know you had a good reason to respond the way you did. You have fires to battle and this is wasting your time. I just wanted to get my sayings understood correctly.
I apologize and shut my mouth...
/me didn't get thread muted for a change :D
@scham I'm not upset with you in the least - I just didn't agree with you. There is no need for an apology or to be quiet.
I thought DeathSpores' post was a fitting summary of this thread, especially after greenwall's answer to joylessjoker and the on-going discussion about whether or not Xeha's re-opening of this thread was indeed rude or not, completely missing the actual point of it all.
I am inclined to repost DeathSpores' deleted post now, however that might be considered rude by some. ;)
I am inclined to repost DeathSpores' deleted post now, however that might be considered rude by some. ;)
I, for one, would like to contribute positively to the atmosphere of 100.
To that end, if you would like to converse, please join channel 97 and find me there, where I will make an effort to be nicer.
Cheerio!
PS:
Sorry about my first post in this thread, this is in no way the direction I expected this thread to go in.
To that end, if you would like to converse, please join channel 97 and find me there, where I will make an effort to be nicer.
Cheerio!
PS:
Sorry about my first post in this thread, this is in no way the direction I expected this thread to go in.
Hey whistler, did you see what happened earlier?
Right after you commended greenwall for changing his spots, he changed them back and posted a thread mocking those who dislike TGFT.
Right after you commended greenwall for changing his spots, he changed them back and posted a thread mocking those who dislike TGFT.
I don't think that making silly mockery threads was the behavior being talked about. I can't speak for Whistler, but the main undesirable behavior that I've seen from Greenwall is deceit, not mockery. Mockery is fine, mostly.