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VO uses arcane methods of calculation for the moment of inertia of objects. Also, we do not have measurements(at least not accurate ones) of the dimensions besides length.
But Sun, where does spin torque come into play? My logic simply went that the lower weight (thus lower rotational inertia)and higher spin torque of the WTD made it significantly better than it's counter parts in terms of spinning. All the same, tweaking with the engines would seem to really screw with the balance in alot of ways. I think a flat increase to armour in exchange for less available firepower (losing the small port) sounds like a fair trade. Perhaps as a new variant altogether? The WTD Mk II?
My point was that a slight reduction in mass and higher spin torque tends to improve the rotation of a short ship much more than you would imagine at first. With your proposed stats you would have a Warthog that rotates better than a Valk - which shouldn't be, specially when you can equip a weapon with such a huge targeting cone and spray power as the agt.
I take toshiro's point about VO using more complex maths for inertia but an estimation with mass and length is still better than a simple mass/spin torque ratio.
Making the TD uselful does not imply that it should have significantly better stats than existing models. The devs can redesign the Warthog series, slightly down tuning the existing models. That is what they did for the Prom.
I take toshiro's point about VO using more complex maths for inertia but an estimation with mass and length is still better than a simple mass/spin torque ratio.
Making the TD uselful does not imply that it should have significantly better stats than existing models. The devs can redesign the Warthog series, slightly down tuning the existing models. That is what they did for the Prom.
Oh! I wasn't saying that your approximation sucked (which it did/does not). I was simply saying that I do not know what method VO employs to calculate said values, and since it's not completely illegitimate to call that 'magic' which one does not understand...
"With your proposed stats you would have a Warthog that rotates better than a Valk - which shouldn't be, specially when you can equip a weapon with such a huge targeting cone and spray power as the agt."
That's very interesting. My proposed stats are exactly how the current WTD is, with only 1000 more armour. I've never flown a Valk, so can anyone confirm that the WTD rotates with quickness comparable to that of a Valkerie? Perhaps the WTD is better than it seems.
http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Warthog
http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Valkyrie
That's very interesting. My proposed stats are exactly how the current WTD is, with only 1000 more armour. I've never flown a Valk, so can anyone confirm that the WTD rotates with quickness comparable to that of a Valkerie? Perhaps the WTD is better than it seems.
http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Warthog
http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Valkyrie
If it was, people would be all over it already. It just isn't. lol
Haha so the TD is already over the top in terms of turning speed. The reason why people don't fly it is not turning speed, but the inferior thrust, making it worse than the Mk III and IV versions when it comes to dodging. Mass/thrust: Valk+2N+1Sun = 5,300/225 = 23.55, TD+agt = 7,400/220 = 33.64 Hog MkIII+agt = 7,600/235 = 32.34
Anyway, since the VO physics are not so simple I might be wrong about turning speed. So there remains the experimental truth: take a chronometer and measure the time to make a full rotation with each ship.
And again Hogs are already quite decent with a single gat, so it is no wonder that the figures confirm that.
Anyway, since the VO physics are not so simple I might be wrong about turning speed. So there remains the experimental truth: take a chronometer and measure the time to make a full rotation with each ship.
And again Hogs are already quite decent with a single gat, so it is no wonder that the figures confirm that.
Valks turn far and away better than hog TDs.. responsive is the term I'd apply to the valk if I only had one to choose from. But, I'll go try right now just to make sure I'm not in a dream world.
Edit: There is something else at work here. The valk stabilizes faster. I even tried putting guns on the valk to make it heavier than my unladen hog TD. Center of mass is a big deal in turning rates. Fly a revenant vs an atlas, two ships of similar mass, and you'll notice a huge difference. Why? The rev is top and front heavy, the atlas is balanced. Valks are perfectly balanced, while hogs have the mass more to the rear. To test this, I'll compare a mining hog to a mkI hog.. same mass, center of mass, etc, just a difference of 10 N thrust.
Results of a stopwatch test of 360 in place:
Mineral Extractor: 3.55 seconds
MkI: 3.6 seconds
WTD: 3.36 seconds
Valk X-1 of more equivalent weight (5500 kg): 3.5 seconds
But when performing a 180, interestingly enough, the valk is more effective. It can start and stop turning faster than the heavier, weaker thrust WTD. The hog has a tendency to 'drift' while the valk does not.
To perform this test, I locked on the turbo immediately after launching the ship, turned the crosshairs to the center of the bay I just left, and then turned off the turbo, timing how long the ship took to 180 and stabilize. FA off, Mouselook on.
WTD: 4.04 seconds
X-1 (5500 kg): 3.59 seconds
Unladen X-1: 2.73 seconds
Mineral: 3.88 seconds
MkI: 3.95 seconds
WTD w/ AGT&sunflare: 4.30
So as you can see, there is more at work here that our previous numbers suggest. The TD will get its nose around faster than these other ships, but the nose will not stay on target. Only with an auto-aimed weapon like Gauss, PlasDev, or AGT will it score the hits that the valk would, assuming a stationary target directly to the rear.
A second in pvp combat is an eternity. Every time I turn my hog, any variant, I lose a second of time that a valk pilot does not (assuming equal weight added to each ship; 1100 to each for instance). Even if my valk has 2400 kg of weight that any hog does not, I still lose one third of a second. A Neutron blaster can fire three, almost four times in the amount of time it takes the nose of the TD to catch up to the valk. UNLESS the hog has a gatling. But then it is even slower due to the added weight.
Edit: There is something else at work here. The valk stabilizes faster. I even tried putting guns on the valk to make it heavier than my unladen hog TD. Center of mass is a big deal in turning rates. Fly a revenant vs an atlas, two ships of similar mass, and you'll notice a huge difference. Why? The rev is top and front heavy, the atlas is balanced. Valks are perfectly balanced, while hogs have the mass more to the rear. To test this, I'll compare a mining hog to a mkI hog.. same mass, center of mass, etc, just a difference of 10 N thrust.
Results of a stopwatch test of 360 in place:
Mineral Extractor: 3.55 seconds
MkI: 3.6 seconds
WTD: 3.36 seconds
Valk X-1 of more equivalent weight (5500 kg): 3.5 seconds
But when performing a 180, interestingly enough, the valk is more effective. It can start and stop turning faster than the heavier, weaker thrust WTD. The hog has a tendency to 'drift' while the valk does not.
To perform this test, I locked on the turbo immediately after launching the ship, turned the crosshairs to the center of the bay I just left, and then turned off the turbo, timing how long the ship took to 180 and stabilize. FA off, Mouselook on.
WTD: 4.04 seconds
X-1 (5500 kg): 3.59 seconds
Unladen X-1: 2.73 seconds
Mineral: 3.88 seconds
MkI: 3.95 seconds
WTD w/ AGT&sunflare: 4.30
So as you can see, there is more at work here that our previous numbers suggest. The TD will get its nose around faster than these other ships, but the nose will not stay on target. Only with an auto-aimed weapon like Gauss, PlasDev, or AGT will it score the hits that the valk would, assuming a stationary target directly to the rear.
A second in pvp combat is an eternity. Every time I turn my hog, any variant, I lose a second of time that a valk pilot does not (assuming equal weight added to each ship; 1100 to each for instance). Even if my valk has 2400 kg of weight that any hog does not, I still lose one third of a second. A Neutron blaster can fire three, almost four times in the amount of time it takes the nose of the TD to catch up to the valk. UNLESS the hog has a gatling. But then it is even slower due to the added weight.
Ok, I don't know if you guys just totally missed my point about the hog or not, so here goes in specifics...
I'm saying we should do THIS to the TD:
Level: 2/2/2/-/-
Armor: 10000
Cargo: 2
Weapons: 1 large
Mass: 3500 kg
Length: 10 m
Thrust: 180 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 5.4 Nm
Turbo Speed: 220 m/s
Turbo Energy: 55/s
The current hog TD is:
Level: 2/2/2/-/-
Armor: 10000
Cargo: 4
Weapons: 1 small, 1 large
Mass: 5300 kg
Length: 10 m
Thrust: 220 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 7.3 Nm
Turbo Speed: 220 m/s
Turbo Energy: 60/s
Current TD:
Thrust:Weight Ratio Empty: 220:5300 (0.0415 N/kg)
Thrust:Weight Ratio with an AGT: 220:7300 (0.0301 N/kg, a 27.5% decrease from empty)*
Applied Torque Effectiveness: 0.00138*MoI (Where MoI is an unknown constant unique to the Warthog)
*The current TD also has an S-port, in which it can carry FLARES, the real killer of the AGT/Flare combo. Without flares, there's no point in even flying a TD with an AGT at the current thrust:weight ratio.
New TD:
Thrust:Weight Ratio Empty: 180:3500 (0.0514 N/kg)
Thrust:Weight Ratio with Mposi: 180:4000 (0.045 N/kg)
Thrust:Weight Ratio with an AGT: 180:5500 (0.0327 N/kg, a 36.3% decrease from empty, a 27.3% decrease from Mposi, and only a 8.6% increase from the current TD)
Applied Torque Effectiveness: 0.00154*MoI (Where MoI is an unknown constant unique to the Warthog, this decreases to 0.00098*MoI when an AGT is added)
So, as you can see, increasing the thrust:weight ratio while decreasing the overall mass will enormously boost performance of the TD while empty or carrying light weight weapons, but the decrease in effectiveness when weighted with an AGT, swarms or mines is much greater, and without the S-port you are not creating a super-hog, only a hog that now has a role as a UIT interceptor to meet the IBG and SVG on their field as a light fighter.
I pity the fool who thinks an AGT on that ship will make it uber. an Mposi will smoke them, hands-down.
I'm saying we should do THIS to the TD:
Level: 2/2/2/-/-
Armor: 10000
Cargo: 2
Weapons: 1 large
Mass: 3500 kg
Length: 10 m
Thrust: 180 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 5.4 Nm
Turbo Speed: 220 m/s
Turbo Energy: 55/s
The current hog TD is:
Level: 2/2/2/-/-
Armor: 10000
Cargo: 4
Weapons: 1 small, 1 large
Mass: 5300 kg
Length: 10 m
Thrust: 220 N
Max Speed: 65 m/s
Spin Torque: 7.3 Nm
Turbo Speed: 220 m/s
Turbo Energy: 60/s
Current TD:
Thrust:Weight Ratio Empty: 220:5300 (0.0415 N/kg)
Thrust:Weight Ratio with an AGT: 220:7300 (0.0301 N/kg, a 27.5% decrease from empty)*
Applied Torque Effectiveness: 0.00138*MoI (Where MoI is an unknown constant unique to the Warthog)
*The current TD also has an S-port, in which it can carry FLARES, the real killer of the AGT/Flare combo. Without flares, there's no point in even flying a TD with an AGT at the current thrust:weight ratio.
New TD:
Thrust:Weight Ratio Empty: 180:3500 (0.0514 N/kg)
Thrust:Weight Ratio with Mposi: 180:4000 (0.045 N/kg)
Thrust:Weight Ratio with an AGT: 180:5500 (0.0327 N/kg, a 36.3% decrease from empty, a 27.3% decrease from Mposi, and only a 8.6% increase from the current TD)
Applied Torque Effectiveness: 0.00154*MoI (Where MoI is an unknown constant unique to the Warthog, this decreases to 0.00098*MoI when an AGT is added)
So, as you can see, increasing the thrust:weight ratio while decreasing the overall mass will enormously boost performance of the TD while empty or carrying light weight weapons, but the decrease in effectiveness when weighted with an AGT, swarms or mines is much greater, and without the S-port you are not creating a super-hog, only a hog that now has a role as a UIT interceptor to meet the IBG and SVG on their field as a light fighter.
I pity the fool who thinks an AGT on that ship will make it uber. an Mposi will smoke them, hands-down.
Nay to the 3500kg mass. Keep it 4500ish.
Those are good stats. 3500kg is plenty. I think. Considering that the IBG and SVG both have high turbo drains for some reason, it would follow suit that the WTD's drain is closer to 57/s or 60/s though.
I like Cunjo's Idea of making the TD light as hell. I just would rather keep the weight around the same as the other hogs and just add thrust. Drain is a little low, but otherwise it looks pretty good. I'd like to see a test version before it is implemented.
The beauty of Cunjo's suggestion is that by making it light, he's excluded the AGT. If you do high mass high thrust the AGT is viable again.
I'd like to see the 55 drain stay. This is the only ship out of the three that will have only one weapon, and I think chase ability is where it needs to excel.
I'd like to see the 55 drain stay. This is the only ship out of the three that will have only one weapon, and I think chase ability is where it needs to excel.
Well, I like the idea, but I'm curious what the popular "weapon of choice" with only one L-port, and being so light?
Perhaps jackhammer or screamer rockets. I'd love to use this ship as a screamer platform.
Otherwise, the Mega Positron is the obvious choice.
Otherwise, the Mega Positron is the obvious choice.
Jackhammers have too few ammo to make it a viable option on a single L-port machine unless you plan on shooting down XCs. Screamers could be good, and it could give people a reason to start learning and perfecting that weapon, which is IMO, a good thing.
It would be good for Mposi... good for group dive bombing (with stingrays) could be good with Plasdev too, but I think ideally everyone will use Megaposi for it un;ess they have a special circumstance to deal with.
It would be good for Mposi... good for group dive bombing (with stingrays) could be good with Plasdev too, but I think ideally everyone will use Megaposi for it un;ess they have a special circumstance to deal with.
I'd definately use the Plasma Devestator. That gun is beastly, and it's not like energy would be an issue.
I don't see what a Territorial Defender would need to chase people for long distance for, though.
I don't see what a Territorial Defender would need to chase people for long distance for, though.
@Cunjo: So, basically, you want a medium/heavy fighter TD hog to be lighter then centurion /mk1,2,3/ with double the armor and near infiniboost?
Lighter, and less thrust.
The thing would need to dance Bojan.. it has one gun, and an L-port at that. The rate of fire will be abysmal. The only hope of survival in such a ship is agility.