Darth Nihilus said: "Where's the Aussie love?

Faille make these fuckers get along."

Are you kidding? EP and TRS agreeing on something? The only thing I am getting is popcorn.

Personally, I feel GS's opinion of organized /vote muting has been made pretty clear. As I understand it, the only guild known to have engaged in an organized /vote mute received guild-wide punitive action from the devs. To me, this makes the devs opinions pretty clear (that and the warning about a single player muting with multiple accounts that now accompanies every /vote mute you make).

Fair Game does it right, IMO. Every time I see him in game, he calls a vote mute on IRC/ITAN Shop, in 100. If others agree with him, they can vote. If not (like my self) they can argue against it in 100 too. So far, not enough subbed players have agreed with him to get IRC/Shop muted (at least, not while I have been online).

Either way, I think I have to go against the flow here, and -1. If you were muted properly (ie, not gang /vote muted by rivals wishing to mess up your game) then it's because you were being a douchbag, and need time to reflect on your life choices. Such individuals do not deserve the privilege of group/guild chat to bitch to others about how they got muted for being a douchbag.

Personally, other than spamming 100, it takes a lot to get me to /vote mute.

Faille, you have to consider the almost non-negative effect of implementing this against the potential for mitigation of abuse. By removing guild/group chat from the mute, it prevents people from abusing this for denial of coordination while retaining all of the impact of people that actually cause problems.

If there is an abuse, it ties up developer resources. By mitigating this impact, this has a net positive impact on the game as a whole by removing the concern for abuse.

What the hell faille!

The privilege of guild/group chat is given and taken away by guild/group leadership - NOT by popular vote.

Now kierky has done us a miraculous solid here by finally exploring some common sense instead of being a mindless follower, can we please please not ruin it!

I'm not going to indulge greenwall's obsession with making totally unrelated remarks about him and some bot or whatever.

This change is needed because it removes the effectiveness of guilds and/or a bunch of players from effectively destroying communication between a player or a few players with their guild or tactical group.

Vote muting someone should NEVER be used for these reasons, and greenwall making the argument that it needs to be a total blackout of communication is totally unacceptable. This does NOT curb behavior, instead only makes people not want to play the game because they can't organise any kind of in-game activities in guild or group chat. You're effectively saying that "We've muted you, therefore you should not be allowed to do anything at all for the next x hours".

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Either way, I think I have to go against the flow here, and -1. If you were muted properly (ie, not gang /vote muted by rivals wishing to mess up your game) then it's because you were being a douchbag, and need time to reflect on your life choices. Such individuals do not deserve the privilege of group/guild chat to bitch to others about how they got muted for being a douchbag.

Why don't they deserve guild/group communications? They are still playing the game, and any punishment for them trying to *play* is totally stupid. Guild chat is moderated by the members and officers of the guild. If they don't like what the publicly muted person is saying, then they can always expel them. A group of unrelated players to the guild should not be allowed to disrupt guild or group communications, otherwise we're saying to offending players that "This is an okay form of attack on someone".

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I am NOT interested in whether they've been "fairly muted" or not, because that argument can go around in circles, and it's stupid to argue opinions which have nothing to do with the merits of the idea.

But since you've wanted to poke me about TGFT, here I go.
Here is an excerpt of chat from greenwall's favourite guild in the world, and you'll see why these changes need to be made before we get any more thickheads thinking this is an okay kind of behavior.

[Mon Jun 15 07:29:09 2015] (guild) [Odia M-14] <Boanerges> talk on 100 is that we are "muting the verse"
[Mon Jun 15 07:29:41 2015] (guild) [Odia H-6] <Ecka Estenk> the fact that we could might be a valid political point.
[Mon Jun 15 07:29:44 2015] (guild) [Odia M-14] <Boanerges> just tried and said that Shark is already muted
[Mon Jun 15 07:30:07 2015] (guild) [Dantia L-6] <Sieger> Now that will sure cause whining. That's why he's quiet now.
[Mon Jun 15 07:30:40 2015] (guild) [Dantia L-6] <Sieger> They were being assholes the past month. It was time they were muted for their actions.
[Mon Jun 15 07:31:09 2015] (guild) [Odia H-6] <Ecka Estenk> SKV vote muted kbireta yesterday , just to be nasty. This is us showing we can mute them anytime we choose.

This is a lovely example of what happens when a guild gets it into their head that a vote mute is an acceptable course of action for RP reasons only. I'm not interested in whether they, or SKV did mute someone, it's the frame of mind that people get by having numbers and thinking that "oh let's mute someone, that'll make our point seen".

It's not good enough, and wasting devs resources to find out what happened every single time because someone was muted for no reason and not able to chat in guild or group (for tactical or combat reasons) isn't good enough either.

You should know better, greenwall.

The tactical combat reasons is another good point, cue Bojan with his favourite ecka quote. I can see TGFT attempting to mute people to stifle combat coordination.

Indeed TRS, let's repeat it again since this is the main reason Greenwall is so furiously defending 'vote mute' as a punitive measure (tested and proved effective in TGFT 'trick' weapons arsenal) instead of accepting it as a 'public relief':

We will use any trick the devs allow us to get one over on the rest of you. Shove your ethics.

- TGFT Commander Ecka Estenk

@ wally

Did you read my post? I do not give two hoots what you think Kierkys reason is, so there is no point explaining it to me. I really don't give a hoot what his reason actually is. I think it is a good idea, regardless.

I'd be willing to wager we can find enough people in the community to indiegogo crowdfund $500 to make this change purely on the basis of sticking it to TGFT and in the spirit of community driven feature requests that are funded by the community. It's been on the cards for ages now anyway we might as well kick it off ourselves. We could just fund it on the basis that we offer the money to guild software and it only goes ahead if they agree to change it.

If someone makes an indiegogo campaign i'll pledge $30 straight up.

Consider this me putting my money where my mouth is. Anyone else want to shake things up? Howbout you wally?

Faille, I was talking about Greenwall and Kierky. You didn't know Greenwall is an Aussie?

MOM!!! Billy told me to shut up!!

The problem with having guild chat open to muted players is that it leaves the vast majority of the members of that guild with no recourse. Relying on a trio of people to be on to moderate your guild chat is just laughable.

What happens when The Blackened Soul inevitably gets muted for his incessant filter dodging and use of homophobic slurs? How likely do you think it is that any TGFT leadership would log on to even see their guild chat, much less grok the situation before the mute expires? Should the rest of the guild spend their next 24 hours resigning their membership one at a time? Should they spend that time looking through their membership manuals to see if they're even allowed to /ignore guildmates?

While we're at it, if your suggested method of dealing with belligerent guildmates that have already been muted is to ignore them, why have a vote mute system at all? Players should be able to moderate their own chat with /ignore anyway, right?

PS: This thread trying to solve an imaginary problem. Voting to mute someone in order to limit their ability to "coordinate" is a joke. This whole thread is like a suggestion to ban the EM drive because of the risk it poses to the auto industry.

Edit: Small update. Apparently The Blackened Soul switched guilds overnight, so my particular example is not quite as relevant. Sorry.

my goodnesss what rage. Kierky you are not interested in discussing the motivation for your post because it reveals you were part of the group that first perpetuated the abuse. You are a pyromaniac who goes around lighting things on fire and then complains that they are too easy to set on fire. You are the cause for your own problem. Change your own behavior and leave the adequate and effective muting system alone.

Another potential way to help stop abuse would be to require a certain level of chatter over the last couple of minutes or over X time period in a public channel to make someone eligible to be muted. That way if you didn't talk over public channels at all it would be impossible for you to be muted.

Even with this change though I still don't see the reason to mute group and guild chat via the same public voting mechanism.

"The problem with having guild chat open to muted players is that it leaves the vast majority of the members of that guild with no recourse. Relying on a trio of people to be on to moderate your guild chat is just laughable."

If your guild is incompetent and fails to take action against rotten members, leave it.

"If your guild commander and LT cannot be online 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year to monitor and regulate guild members they are incompetant and you should leave your guild!"

-Pizzasgood

Guild chatting is completely different to public chat, people don't troll their own guild members and at some point a lieutenant or commander has deemed this person as sociable enough to be in the guild. It is a completely different scenario to public chat you're just giving us more straw man fallacy bullshit now greenwall.

I think you need to review what a strawman argument is on your commute and get back with some better comments, lol. I won't hold out hope.

"I like to misrepresent people's position then pretend it's not the textbook definition of a straw man."

-Greenwall

+1 to the OP I think the current complete muting goes beyond the scope of what is reasonable for community action to accomplish in self policing. Group and guild chat seem reasonable while still affecting the offender as intended.

I have more than once put fellow guild members on ignore, not for being offensive but because I am old and don't enjoy the chatter of children at times.