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We don't even have a clear view of the intended role of the player owned trident- much like the UDV. So the question remains, why simply because it is a trident, does it need all of the scanner options integrated? Because we spent a lot of time building them does nothing imply a need to have addon, cargo or ore scanners integrated. A spoofer maybe, but I loath spoofers.
Perhaps rereading the post immediately prior to my comments that you responded to will provide some clarity to the question I posed. My post was responding specifically to Vikingrangers arguments.
Look, I will be among the first to say that the requirements to build a trident are ridiculously high. The trade off is that you never have to build it again if you don't want to and can rebuy it for a very very cheap price. I don't disagree that the scanners would enhance tridents to some small degree. I do disagree that tridents should have all scanning options- particularly at an enhanced range by default, with the exception of extended and storm radar because I do believe that complements what I think is the intended role of the ship. What this does is diminish the role of the smaller ships.
This is what I said " Somewhere in the Soon(tm) timeline new systems are going to be introduced with even more rare and necessary resources. I think the question GS has to ask is do they want all of that unknown to be logged into multiple database tables within a few hours of introduction? " Context makes a difference.
With the proposed range of 1500m, a trident or fleet of tridents could easily log an entire sector to a database by running a script targeting the asteroids and flying through the fields. This can already be done to a lesser degree with standard ships. What I am saying is that my understanding is that a certain amount of work for players is built into the game. Enabling players to shortcut that work to some degree may be acceptable- and maybe even necessary as the world seems to be increasingly obsessed with mobile devices- but I think that is one of the questions that GS will ask itself if it considers the proposals here.
I am all for enhancing the trident. I would like first and foremost better offensive weaponry / small or large ports and then better tools such as mining beams.
"Second, please explain how you can build a trident and scan all the asteroids in the universe within a few hours of playing the game." Trying to skew the discussion much? What exactly does the act of building a trident have to do with this discussion?
My argument is simply that tridents should not by default have every option available and that I think that it is the responsibility of those in favor to explain why this is needed at a level substantially above 'because it's a trident and I spent months building it'. I would have loved to have been able to do some additional work and customized my trident with more of the features that I would like, but we have what imo is a mass produced generic ship. I do not perceive the trident as top of the line in any sense.
Perhaps rereading the post immediately prior to my comments that you responded to will provide some clarity to the question I posed. My post was responding specifically to Vikingrangers arguments.
Look, I will be among the first to say that the requirements to build a trident are ridiculously high. The trade off is that you never have to build it again if you don't want to and can rebuy it for a very very cheap price. I don't disagree that the scanners would enhance tridents to some small degree. I do disagree that tridents should have all scanning options- particularly at an enhanced range by default, with the exception of extended and storm radar because I do believe that complements what I think is the intended role of the ship. What this does is diminish the role of the smaller ships.
This is what I said " Somewhere in the Soon(tm) timeline new systems are going to be introduced with even more rare and necessary resources. I think the question GS has to ask is do they want all of that unknown to be logged into multiple database tables within a few hours of introduction? " Context makes a difference.
With the proposed range of 1500m, a trident or fleet of tridents could easily log an entire sector to a database by running a script targeting the asteroids and flying through the fields. This can already be done to a lesser degree with standard ships. What I am saying is that my understanding is that a certain amount of work for players is built into the game. Enabling players to shortcut that work to some degree may be acceptable- and maybe even necessary as the world seems to be increasingly obsessed with mobile devices- but I think that is one of the questions that GS will ask itself if it considers the proposals here.
I am all for enhancing the trident. I would like first and foremost better offensive weaponry / small or large ports and then better tools such as mining beams.
"Second, please explain how you can build a trident and scan all the asteroids in the universe within a few hours of playing the game." Trying to skew the discussion much? What exactly does the act of building a trident have to do with this discussion?
My argument is simply that tridents should not by default have every option available and that I think that it is the responsibility of those in favor to explain why this is needed at a level substantially above 'because it's a trident and I spent months building it'. I would have loved to have been able to do some additional work and customized my trident with more of the features that I would like, but we have what imo is a mass produced generic ship. I do not perceive the trident as top of the line in any sense.
@fluffy
I misunderstood your statement regarding collecting info after introduction... I thought you were talking about new characters. So disregard my request to explain the absurd.
We don't even have a clear view of the intended role of the player owned trident
Totally disagree. I think the roles of Tridents are VERY clear, and I can't imagine Incarnate's intention was far off from what they are (even if there are future(tm) plans). They are used very effectively in game for hauling and for combat support. This is how NPCs "use" them as well, which only further proves their intended purpose.
I had a bit of extra time, so for all of you who seemed to have missed it, here are the reasons given in this thread other than "because it's a capital ship":
-for mining
-(for) defensive purposes (what kind of weapons the enemy has, so the pilot can make informed decisions to run or stay).
-What did I make this master computer/optical sensor for again?
-A trident class mineral scanner doing slow swaths over a roid field with wire mesh overlays and roid data would be pretty sweet. File that under wishful thinking but a miner can dream.
-Giving a trident pilot heightened situational awareness that he can relay to other friendlies or use themselves for decision making makes complete sense.
-These capabilities would offer the Trident pilot excellent situational awareness no matter their intended use. This awarness important for, as you say, a "slow ship."
-Many Trident pilots use their tridents are battle platforms, and it makes sense for such a battle platform to have a full selection of scanning capabilities.
-Mineral scanning could be used for scanning in hive infested systems. Theoretically a group of trident pilots could group mine in this kind of sector. While they would be a huge disadvantage due to having only one large port, the shielding is the trade off.
-Now that the Trident has been field tested extensively, roles for enhanced sensor abilities are evident.
-Tridents play a much different role than other ships in the game. They are combat support and heavy transport capital ships that are very expensive, very large, and dockable. They are nowhere near the equivalent of normal ships in the game and cannot be compared to other ships as such.
And, allow me to expound further on the benefit adding sensors to Tridents would bring the game (i.e. the "need"). [Note that I personally do not support a built-in spoofer, as proposed above.]
-Trident captains in large group combat situations would be able to relay add-on configurations to their teammates, providing enhanced decision making and tactics. Enemies would also be aware of this capability would and would be more compelled to bring their own Trident(s) to bear. Additional reasons to bring a Trident to combat means more chances of Tridents being brought to combat, which is a very good thing for the game. *Also, note that this was proposed and supported by members of ONE, notorious for NOT bringing their tridents to battle. If this change compels them to change that, all the better.
-Pirates and/or people blockading sectors could use their Trident to examine the contents of passing ships and adjust their payment demands or behavior accordingly. Enhanced piracy tactics are good for the game, and also would encourage more use of the vastly underused spoofers, increasing their market value and driving up procurements (GOOD FOR THE GAME).
-People hauling goods in Tridents would be able to make better decisions regarding evasion and confrontation, as well as when to call for help. Traders are an important group of players in the game, and providing them an advantage in a game change alongside advantages to their adversaries is smart for balance.
-People using Tridents to help non-trident owners mine ore could help scan / locate the correct ore while providing protection. This is good for miners, good for encouraging group play, i.e. good for the game.
-People who have been long term subscribers but as of yet have not built a Trident have yet another reason to consider doing so. This increases the potential they remain subbed, and, upon completion, expands gameplay options for them into the future. More subs, more people trying to make tridents = good for the game.
Now, I'd like to hear some clear and non-generic (i.e. non "The Trident Shouldn't Have Everything") reasons why adding sensors to Tridents is a bad idea, or at the very least refutations of the above list of reasons such a change would be good for the game -- otherwise, as Lecter likes to say, Kindly STFU.
I misunderstood your statement regarding collecting info after introduction... I thought you were talking about new characters. So disregard my request to explain the absurd.
We don't even have a clear view of the intended role of the player owned trident
Totally disagree. I think the roles of Tridents are VERY clear, and I can't imagine Incarnate's intention was far off from what they are (even if there are future(tm) plans). They are used very effectively in game for hauling and for combat support. This is how NPCs "use" them as well, which only further proves their intended purpose.
I had a bit of extra time, so for all of you who seemed to have missed it, here are the reasons given in this thread other than "because it's a capital ship":
-for mining
-(for) defensive purposes (what kind of weapons the enemy has, so the pilot can make informed decisions to run or stay).
-What did I make this master computer/optical sensor for again?
-A trident class mineral scanner doing slow swaths over a roid field with wire mesh overlays and roid data would be pretty sweet. File that under wishful thinking but a miner can dream.
-Giving a trident pilot heightened situational awareness that he can relay to other friendlies or use themselves for decision making makes complete sense.
-These capabilities would offer the Trident pilot excellent situational awareness no matter their intended use. This awarness important for, as you say, a "slow ship."
-Many Trident pilots use their tridents are battle platforms, and it makes sense for such a battle platform to have a full selection of scanning capabilities.
-Mineral scanning could be used for scanning in hive infested systems. Theoretically a group of trident pilots could group mine in this kind of sector. While they would be a huge disadvantage due to having only one large port, the shielding is the trade off.
-Now that the Trident has been field tested extensively, roles for enhanced sensor abilities are evident.
-Tridents play a much different role than other ships in the game. They are combat support and heavy transport capital ships that are very expensive, very large, and dockable. They are nowhere near the equivalent of normal ships in the game and cannot be compared to other ships as such.
And, allow me to expound further on the benefit adding sensors to Tridents would bring the game (i.e. the "need"). [Note that I personally do not support a built-in spoofer, as proposed above.]
-Trident captains in large group combat situations would be able to relay add-on configurations to their teammates, providing enhanced decision making and tactics. Enemies would also be aware of this capability would and would be more compelled to bring their own Trident(s) to bear. Additional reasons to bring a Trident to combat means more chances of Tridents being brought to combat, which is a very good thing for the game. *Also, note that this was proposed and supported by members of ONE, notorious for NOT bringing their tridents to battle. If this change compels them to change that, all the better.
-Pirates and/or people blockading sectors could use their Trident to examine the contents of passing ships and adjust their payment demands or behavior accordingly. Enhanced piracy tactics are good for the game, and also would encourage more use of the vastly underused spoofers, increasing their market value and driving up procurements (GOOD FOR THE GAME).
-People hauling goods in Tridents would be able to make better decisions regarding evasion and confrontation, as well as when to call for help. Traders are an important group of players in the game, and providing them an advantage in a game change alongside advantages to their adversaries is smart for balance.
-People using Tridents to help non-trident owners mine ore could help scan / locate the correct ore while providing protection. This is good for miners, good for encouraging group play, i.e. good for the game.
-People who have been long term subscribers but as of yet have not built a Trident have yet another reason to consider doing so. This increases the potential they remain subbed, and, upon completion, expands gameplay options for them into the future. More subs, more people trying to make tridents = good for the game.
Now, I'd like to hear some clear and non-generic (i.e. non "The Trident Shouldn't Have Everything") reasons why adding sensors to Tridents is a bad idea, or at the very least refutations of the above list of reasons such a change would be good for the game -- otherwise, as Lecter likes to say, Kindly STFU.
i can't believe this managed to go on for 3 pages and get no where
Greenwall, what's good for the game is options. Having everything baked-in and unchangeable is not providing options. It's providing a static environment where everyone is the same.
i can't believe this managed to go on for 3 pages and get no where
I can't believe you can't count to 4. And actually it's been good discourse for the most part.
I can't believe you can't count to 4. And actually it's been good discourse for the most part.
Draugath, I totally agree that options would be nice. Unfortunately, other Trident options don't really seem to be forthcoming and Incarnate has already spoken against utility ports. The only other way to add these "options" to the trident would be small ports, which, as I've pointed out, come with other ramifications.
That said, I strongly disagree giving all tridents comprehensive scanner arrays makes a "static environment where everyone is the same."
That said, I strongly disagree giving all tridents comprehensive scanner arrays makes a "static environment where everyone is the same."
So draugath are you pro-nerfing the UDV or aren't you?!
If the scanners/sensors on the UDV were removed and the ports they occupied made into proper S/L ports, it would hardly be a nerf.
If the scanners/sensors on the trident were removed and the ports they occupied made into proper S/L ports, it would be a big improvement. Let the players decide what sensor/scanner/weapon packages best suit their current mission needs.
Don't forget that power cell grid capacity and addon grid requirements has still barely been used to any degree. Make new sensors/scanners/weapons that put capital ships of any design into their own respective category that require the higher grid to equip.
Tridents should be able to destroy other tridents without the aid of other smaller ships. Tridents should be able to kill Queens solo and not smaller ships (unless highly skilled) as is currently the case. But this again should all hinge upon your load out.
Yes, the trident has historically been a support ship, and from an RP perspective it makes sense that they be typically equipped with various sensor arrays, but this shouldn't be the end-all-be-all for the ship.
I would much rather see all of these so-called general purpose addon ports made available than locked up with arbitrary addon selections.
If the scanners/sensors on the trident were removed and the ports they occupied made into proper S/L ports, it would be a big improvement. Let the players decide what sensor/scanner/weapon packages best suit their current mission needs.
Don't forget that power cell grid capacity and addon grid requirements has still barely been used to any degree. Make new sensors/scanners/weapons that put capital ships of any design into their own respective category that require the higher grid to equip.
Tridents should be able to destroy other tridents without the aid of other smaller ships. Tridents should be able to kill Queens solo and not smaller ships (unless highly skilled) as is currently the case. But this again should all hinge upon your load out.
Yes, the trident has historically been a support ship, and from an RP perspective it makes sense that they be typically equipped with various sensor arrays, but this shouldn't be the end-all-be-all for the ship.
I would much rather see all of these so-called general purpose addon ports made available than locked up with arbitrary addon selections.
Greenwall, a list of things tridents could do with added sensors is not a list of justifications for them getting those buffs. The SCP could do a lot more things were it buffed to do them, but that hardly justified buffing that particular ship in that particular way.
a list of things tridents could do with added sensors is not a list of justifications for them getting those buffs.
Sure it is if it can be argued that the game would be better off, which it can and which I have.
The SCP could do a lot more things were it buffed to do them, but that hardly justified buffing that particular ship in that particular way.
The SCP is in no way comparable in function to a trident.
By the way thanks for making it clear you have no real argument against this suggestion.
Sure it is if it can be argued that the game would be better off, which it can and which I have.
The SCP could do a lot more things were it buffed to do them, but that hardly justified buffing that particular ship in that particular way.
The SCP is in no way comparable in function to a trident.
By the way thanks for making it clear you have no real argument against this suggestion.
I think you've been here long enough to know that most suggestion discussions are wastes of time.
Inc is super busy with the project he mentioned earlier. He'll catch up in Suggestions periodically.
Sure it is if it can be argued that the game would be better off, which it can and which I have.
No, you've said you'd like tridents to have extra capabilities. And I'm sure prom jocks would like SCPs to be more uber, valk jocks their valks more uber, and us Hound pilots the same re: the Hound. But that's hardly a rational justification for changing the ships.
No, you've said you'd like tridents to have extra capabilities. And I'm sure prom jocks would like SCPs to be more uber, valk jocks their valks more uber, and us Hound pilots the same re: the Hound. But that's hardly a rational justification for changing the ships.
I've said far more than that and you know it. I realize you are just purposefully trolling now, which is really not good behavior in light of the new "be nice" policy.
Yeah, start submitting "trolling" support tickets for suggestions debate posts with which you disagree...see what that gets you, champ.
Not really needed, since you are clearly the minority voice here, and the only criticism you seem to be able to offer are statements completely ignorant of the ongoing discussion.
Lecter's violating the forum rules because he keeps explaining why my arguments are baseless, wahhh!...but, uh, no need to report that violation.
Guess we know which option you're picking as between "put up" or "shut up" :) Anyway, best of luck in your quest to get every sensor known to the game into the trident because cap ship. I'm sure it'll go great.
Guess we know which option you're picking as between "put up" or "shut up" :) Anyway, best of luck in your quest to get every sensor known to the game into the trident because cap ship. I'm sure it'll go great.
All: Kindly veer away from the personal comments and back to the sensors please.
+1 to hoban's suggestion. Tridents should have better standard sensors as long as hoban takes me off mute (somewhat kidding with the last phrase).
To be honest, even though I do not have a Trident and probably never will, I think this idea does have merits. I'm not sold on the fact that the sensor information should be shared with groups (lets face it, a current ship with a dedicated sensor doesn't, apart from the storm radar thing), but I do think Tridents should have whatever sensors are available.
so +0.5
so +0.5