I am opposed to trying to wedge every plugin into the default client.

I am opposed to you being opposed to things that aren't being discussed in this thread. Go make your own thread to oppose things that nobody has said.

"Pizzasgood, it's not *specifically* programming that is the repulsive factor here. It's the need to tinker and configure in ways that are not user-friendly to those who are unfamiliar with command line interfacing and folder structure."

Eh, anybody who is does not understand "folder structure" has no business using a computer at all. They should go find one of those "Intro to Computing" classes that are provided for older folks and learn some basics first.

As for "command line interfacing", I'm assuming you mean accessing plugins via commands in the chat bar, because you don't need the command line to install a plugin. But that's just a matter of following directions, e.g. "Type '/targetless' to access the options." (If a plugin author doesn't adequately document how to use his plugin, that's another story.) And anyway, the most useful features of both TCS and Targetless can be accessed without using any commands -- TCS adds an entry to the options window, and TargetLess's list kicks in as soon as it is installed; you only need to run /targetless if you want to set up the binds or change its settings.

"I mean -- right off the bat, in order to use any plugins, you are instructed to manually modify the file contents of the VO game. That made me nervous when I first did it, and kind of skeptical of the entire concept."

Not quite. All you are instructed to do is to create the plugins folder, and dump the plugins into that. At no point do you actually modify any of VO's "file contents".

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice if the devs got around to implementing that plugin manager sometime, and I've already said they should build-in notifications for when people enter and leave the sector. But in the meanwhile, I'm not at all bothered if people who refuse to learn how to use a computer get alienated.

Nobody seems to have pointed out the obvious, the best plugins share information. No matter how clever your plugins are unless enough folk are willing to use them they are more or less useless.

Under all this is a simple fact; VO is a people game. Look at Honk. A simple plugin which is very popular since it interacts with people.

Espionage/trs can boast how clever his plugins are as much as he likes, but while RED sits like a pair of knickers with broken elastic round his ankles they are effectively useless. A simple plugin with a couple of dozen folk contributing data is much more use than a clever one with no data.

Really, you can fight on forums forever, getting ingame and actually creating a popular guild or coalition that shares information will always come out on top.

Vendetta Online is a 3D space combat MMORPG for Windows, Mac, Linux and Android.

I agree more with greenwall in philosophy of minimizing technically barriers to playing the game. I just disagree with greenwall on the direction that philosophy should take us.

Plugins should be accessable to anyone that can operate the game, and a web browser, and type a command in game. plugins should be installed from inside the game, without a player having to ever concern themselves with things like folder structures, etc...

Insisting that a player should have a specific computer literacy beyond what is required to load and play the game will limit the available audience for the game.

@roda "plugins should be installed from inside the game, without a player having to ever concern themselves with things like folder structures, etc..."

+1, this is the most important problem with plugins in the current implementation. They are a hassle and they spook out non-technical people.

In an ideal world, plugins would function like apps in the android market: they follow you from install to install, there is a known repository of plugins, and people can contribute plugins without too much fuss. Access to the market can be through the PCC (ie they check submissions).

Installing 'private' plugins could be done through the same interface with an 'install from file' command of sorts.

The reason why we do not integrate plugins, is because we do not want any implied responsibility for them. They're hacky functionality that has a strong tendency to break or make the client really slow in various ways. They also can greatly improve the game experience, no question.. but we're currently best served by back-propagating ideas from plugins into the main-line code, on a case-by-case basis.

To create an in-game, versioned, secure plugin-submission system.. and have someone manage it, would be quite an undertaking. More than I have resources for at the moment. It is something I've thought about, but it's not trivial.

You don't have to do the latter to solve this issue, you just have to integrate a small list of features that the most common plugins give you as you said and this problem will be largely gone. As was said, the main problem is that the default interface sells VO short, but with the features from the small bundle of plugins that most people use integrated it would help retention dramatically.

Would it help if the community documented the specifics of the features in a thread like a design document? We could start with greenwall's list and work from there if you're interested in doing this in the near future.

I would limit the document to very high level requirements for the following reasons:

1) They might surprise us with a beautiful implementation of what we thought was already perfect.

2) They might get some horribly wrong, resulting in certain people having an aneurism.

What would help the most, is what I requested back on page 2.

That's what TRS is suggesting be put together...we're just quibbling over whether it be a design document or a requirements document in scope.

We like to quibble, it gives the appearance of doing something to the untrained eye, without actually getting anything done :)

We've posted near-comprehensive lists of simple changes/fixes on the Suggestions board plenty of times Inc.

Less quibbling more list writing, i'm looking at you greenwall

arf: So does that mean I can't ask for references to the topics again?

Also, what the userbase thinks is "comprehensive" is often "not comprehensive at all", because it commonly makes many assumptions (usually flawed, sometimes totally erroneous). Which is why I asked for something very specific on page 2.

Also, I'm the only person who tracks and manages suggestions, and turns them into reality. Everyone else is busy-as-hell doing their 323984 different things, and that happens to be one of mine. But if I'm out of town, or super busy, and miss topics or they fall through the cracks somehow, that does not diminish the value of raising the issue again (even by just linking back to the topic).

Yesterday I spent a lot of time on migrating the new test server, as I'm our sysadmin. I also project-managed all our goals for this week, aside from hours of corporate-relationship emails. Now I have to write and polish a major proposal for Friday and pitch it to another company, along with managing a bunch of other on-going relationships and deals, off-site interns, and try and write/ship a newsletter.

I wish I just did game design, that's what I want to do. But the business of "keeping the lights on" at Guild Software, with only four people, is pretty involved. So.. cut me some slack on the suggestions, ok? I really don't care how old they are, or how many times they've been suggested, or whatever else.. if we want to see it integrated, sometimes you'll need to link to the old topic yet again, or provide exactly and specifically what I have requested.

I'm happy to sift through and make a list, but I would like such a list to be made into a sticky in the suggestion forum.

Here you go, Inc: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/28783

Arf started it off and I added a bunch of the ones I think are important.

The thread you linked is awesome. A treasure trove.

As a new player myself, I am avoiding plug-ins for a bit until I better understand vanilla but I can certainly see how these would be extremely advantageous.

I guess after browsing this thread, I would only add that it would be nice if you could have a button at the launch screen to take you to a mod database or list of recommended mods. Even a link to the forum thread that the above poster linked.

I honestly dont see this as a big deal personally since I am the type to read forums and look up information about a game I am playing but if you are pushing for a steam release or to have any influx of new players from the ipod and such- I would think it would be a good idea to let people immediately know this game is moddebale.

I read people talking about it in chat last night and was given a wiki link but even with the reading I had done I had yet to hear about the plug ins. I know I would have discovered it on my own but perhaps far later than I had by hearing it. And the ability to mod is a feature which should be promoted imho since many [people will play a modded game simply for the customization fact alone (like the ES games)

-Anyhow thats my 2 credits on the subject. Loving the game so far.

@Jaxalope: I would advise the targetless plugin, it really makes it much easier to see what is going on and to do combat and mining. All else is optional, imho.