Forums » Role Playing
@biretak but... but LISTEN & BELIEVE
Sieger;
I may be missing the ingame side of things, but just being able to read the outrage and debates across the forums has painted a pretty clear picture. Coming into this rather objectively (no stakes ingame, liking the persons behind both SKV and TGFT, nothing to gain either way), here's what I've seen;
Plugin:
1. Releasing something with the 'tracking' features it has without the sort of disclaimer ultimately arrived at is CLEARLY a honeypot. Which really isn't that big a deal by VO espionage standards-- it's been done before. It certainly doesn't seem to violate real life laws any more than any other data collecting plugin. On it's own, totally not a big deal
2. But then you guys really Tom Brady'd it and doubled down on deception instead of being honest about something that really isn't the apocalyptic herald bojan and others are suggesting. I think TGFT's commitment to saying "no no there's nothing sketchy about it" and tendency to attack the anti-plugin people's character rather than their arguments has been a weak and transparent attempt to deny what is plainly clear. And that makes you guys notably less trustworthy than your guild's reputation for it's ENTIRE existence
3. You conceded to the disclaimer because it's a reasonable thing to do, and releases your guild from any supposed shadiness. So good job with that
Mota: He's not one of those utterly moronic serco, he's not even bojan, and he seems to have as much credibility as anyone. More than most of the posters here. I could be wrong; though if that's not the case, I'm a bit surprised that..
1. his story was corroborated by biretak. And sounds like a classic case of a VO kid raging. Is repairing a turret in a warzone technically an act of hostility? Sure, as agreed upon by Mota and everyone else. Is the proper response (by a supposedly privileged and more responsible member of your guild) to threaten a whole guild with KoS unless they expel someone? Hell no.
2. If this part is true "I was told by the TGFT pilot that I only get a key if I help him bomb the turrets." then that is embarrassing in itself
3. These two incidents do not paint the picture of a tempered, responsible councilor. Which, again, has largely been the situation for your ENTIRE existence.
I'm not coming to these conclusions by just reading what "the usual suspects" are saying. I'm reading what everyone is saying. Amidst the hyperbole used by both sides, there are valid points. When these points are ignored by TGFT (or the attempt is made, weakly, to dismiss them out of hand a la Surb) it adds credibility to them.
Hell, you guys all addressed the ridiculous claim about the plugin violating the real-world law. But all of a sudden a documented incident of a councilor acting rashly and immaturely is too inane to address? SKV may have started a war, and may be doing their best (as much as that is..) to slander you all, but a lot of the responses by TGFT (especially, disappointingly, Surb throughout this thread) have done far more to discredit and alienate yourselves than anything the opposition has said.
I may be missing the ingame side of things, but just being able to read the outrage and debates across the forums has painted a pretty clear picture. Coming into this rather objectively (no stakes ingame, liking the persons behind both SKV and TGFT, nothing to gain either way), here's what I've seen;
Plugin:
1. Releasing something with the 'tracking' features it has without the sort of disclaimer ultimately arrived at is CLEARLY a honeypot. Which really isn't that big a deal by VO espionage standards-- it's been done before. It certainly doesn't seem to violate real life laws any more than any other data collecting plugin. On it's own, totally not a big deal
2. But then you guys really Tom Brady'd it and doubled down on deception instead of being honest about something that really isn't the apocalyptic herald bojan and others are suggesting. I think TGFT's commitment to saying "no no there's nothing sketchy about it" and tendency to attack the anti-plugin people's character rather than their arguments has been a weak and transparent attempt to deny what is plainly clear. And that makes you guys notably less trustworthy than your guild's reputation for it's ENTIRE existence
3. You conceded to the disclaimer because it's a reasonable thing to do, and releases your guild from any supposed shadiness. So good job with that
Mota: He's not one of those utterly moronic serco, he's not even bojan, and he seems to have as much credibility as anyone. More than most of the posters here. I could be wrong; though if that's not the case, I'm a bit surprised that..
1. his story was corroborated by biretak. And sounds like a classic case of a VO kid raging. Is repairing a turret in a warzone technically an act of hostility? Sure, as agreed upon by Mota and everyone else. Is the proper response (by a supposedly privileged and more responsible member of your guild) to threaten a whole guild with KoS unless they expel someone? Hell no.
2. If this part is true "I was told by the TGFT pilot that I only get a key if I help him bomb the turrets." then that is embarrassing in itself
3. These two incidents do not paint the picture of a tempered, responsible councilor. Which, again, has largely been the situation for your ENTIRE existence.
I'm not coming to these conclusions by just reading what "the usual suspects" are saying. I'm reading what everyone is saying. Amidst the hyperbole used by both sides, there are valid points. When these points are ignored by TGFT (or the attempt is made, weakly, to dismiss them out of hand a la Surb) it adds credibility to them.
Hell, you guys all addressed the ridiculous claim about the plugin violating the real-world law. But all of a sudden a documented incident of a councilor acting rashly and immaturely is too inane to address? SKV may have started a war, and may be doing their best (as much as that is..) to slander you all, but a lot of the responses by TGFT (especially, disappointingly, Surb throughout this thread) have done far more to discredit and alienate yourselves than anything the opposition has said.
smittens, do you wear tinfoil hat? you seem to believe everything you read.There is stuff weirder than this out there.
When these points are ignored by TGFT (or the attempt is made, weakly, to dismiss them out of hand a la Surb) it adds credibility to them.
Smittens gets 100 points for the above.
The haters assume everything in Mota's statement is accurate. There are inaccuracies in his statement.
But nobody in TGFT is is willing to say what's wrong with it. So I'll assume it's the punctuation.
Smittens gets 100 points for the above.
The haters assume everything in Mota's statement is accurate. There are inaccuracies in his statement.
But nobody in TGFT is is willing to say what's wrong with it. So I'll assume it's the punctuation.
Oh look an example was provided by biretak right before I hit 'save'
Sieger, Surb;
Please take a look at how biretak has conducted himself in the face of all this (not to mention... causing it all). And then if you can honestly tell me that he (& TGFT as the entity he represents) is merely being smeared by 'the usual suspects', and that he has acted as you would hope a TGFT Councilor would act, ingame and on a public forum... I'll honestly reconsider my evaluation of all this.
Because in his posts the past few days he's acted as petulant as peytros, as obtuse as Dirty, and as self-righteous as TRS. It's a pretty ugly mix
Please take a look at how biretak has conducted himself in the face of all this (not to mention... causing it all). And then if you can honestly tell me that he (& TGFT as the entity he represents) is merely being smeared by 'the usual suspects', and that he has acted as you would hope a TGFT Councilor would act, ingame and on a public forum... I'll honestly reconsider my evaluation of all this.
Because in his posts the past few days he's acted as petulant as peytros, as obtuse as Dirty, and as self-righteous as TRS. It's a pretty ugly mix
+ lols Surb
+1 a guild charter with decimal points
+1 Politicking and alts
+1 This thread
+1 Smittens
+ neutrality
+1 a guild charter with decimal points
+1 Politicking and alts
+1 This thread
+1 Smittens
+ neutrality
+1 Ore
Hey biretak, can you explain to me how you're not violating your guild charter? Perhaps I overlooked something or misread the charter. I'm open to the possibility that I didn't read it right, or the charter is outdated. Is it true that you're not giving any fucks about it? You don't seem to understand the ramifications. If you repeatedly broke the guild charter and your guild leadership is tolerating it, it casts a very negative light on your guild's image. If you don't keep your word about your charter, how can we trust you in other matters?
The haters assume everything in Mota's statement is accurate. There are inaccuracies in his statement.
We've been over this here and in the other thread. You corroborated all of the relevant bits of Mota's story. You admitted to threatening his guild status, and then carrying out the threat. You said it all by yourself while splitting hairs with him.
Going forward, it would be best if you drop the denying game. Your guild members may be backing you up for now, with blind loyalty at a large expense to their guild image which is beyond jaw-dropping. However, there is a limit to everything. Will you continue to push the limits?
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/14/30042?page=9#360041
You alone, brietak, already caused Itan, your longtime precious ally, to issue an ultimatum. You are on the verge of a war with them. Wake up and smell coffee.
The haters assume everything in Mota's statement is accurate. There are inaccuracies in his statement.
We've been over this here and in the other thread. You corroborated all of the relevant bits of Mota's story. You admitted to threatening his guild status, and then carrying out the threat. You said it all by yourself while splitting hairs with him.
Going forward, it would be best if you drop the denying game. Your guild members may be backing you up for now, with blind loyalty at a large expense to their guild image which is beyond jaw-dropping. However, there is a limit to everything. Will you continue to push the limits?
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/14/30042?page=9#360041
You alone, brietak, already caused Itan, your longtime precious ally, to issue an ultimatum. You are on the verge of a war with them. Wake up and smell coffee.
Yesterday you finally said that you spoke with the TGFT council right after the incident after I posted this thread. Were there any votes about INV? If I'm not mistaken about your charter, as a council, votes must take place before any kind of change in relations with other guilds. Feel free to correct me if I'm reading it wrong.
This happened May 8th and council was informed May 8th. I am allowed to shoot people who are hostile that are not on our potentially hostile list in defense of free trade without anyone's approval.
You're still avoiding the real issue at hand.
Are you allowed to threaten a whole guild with KOS, which is officially a war between guilds, unless they expel an individual, without TGFT council's approval?
Are you allowed to threaten a whole guild with KOS, which is officially a war between guilds, unless they expel an individual, without TGFT council's approval?
As far as I know Joyless, no, a Councilor (or any officer and member) of a guild has no right to threaten an ENTIRE guild.
And Kb is slowly leading TGFT into losing one of their biggest allies.
And Kb is slowly leading TGFT into losing one of their biggest allies.
RoboMechJeb,
I'll allow biretak to answer that for TGFT and himself.
It depends on the guild. Some guilds are free-for-all, telling their members they can do whatever they like. They choose to roleplay as carefree felons. Certainly, that would alienate them from other guilds, but that's their choice. At least they're upfront about it and not lying about themselves.
The issue at stake here is that TGFT has had a long history of trustworthiness and neutrality. They wrote a charter by hand themselves, outlining what they stand for and how we can expect their members and leaders to behave. So far, biretak and other TGFT leaders are revealing that they no longer care about the charter. Essentially, they are being deceitful by still holding up the charter that they no longer follow. They still claim to be neutral and peaceful, but their recent actions are showing otherwise. They are liars, unlike the carefree felons.
This means that we can no longer trust their word. Other guilds must reevaluate their relationship with TGFT.
I'll allow biretak to answer that for TGFT and himself.
It depends on the guild. Some guilds are free-for-all, telling their members they can do whatever they like. They choose to roleplay as carefree felons. Certainly, that would alienate them from other guilds, but that's their choice. At least they're upfront about it and not lying about themselves.
The issue at stake here is that TGFT has had a long history of trustworthiness and neutrality. They wrote a charter by hand themselves, outlining what they stand for and how we can expect their members and leaders to behave. So far, biretak and other TGFT leaders are revealing that they no longer care about the charter. Essentially, they are being deceitful by still holding up the charter that they no longer follow. They still claim to be neutral and peaceful, but their recent actions are showing otherwise. They are liars, unlike the carefree felons.
This means that we can no longer trust their word. Other guilds must reevaluate their relationship with TGFT.
Ok
Surbius, wasn't there a form to fill out for such a complaint? A triplicate form I believe.
There was a form to fill out for complaints (I saw that post in the TGFT forum)
TGFT does not have a long history of trustworthiness OR neutrality. Give me a break joylessjoker.
It's a matter of perspective, TRS. More and more people are starting to see TGFT the way you do. You should be elated more than anything else.
TRS, have you EVEN been to the past of TGFT?