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wanna see something REALLY weird? the monetary reward goes DOWN with an increase in kills and XP at some point... this is a screencap of my mission computer after our diminishing group finished a couple BP missions...
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/6043/bpweird6iq.png
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/6043/bpweird6iq.png
OK, I ran my experament and here was the data:
in about the same amount of time it took to bot up to level 2 (3 houres plus or minus) i ran 2 BP missions.
The first one was a 2 person mission against only bots. We did not increase the count and the reward was roughly 600 XP in each of the 3 catagories, and 5,400cr
the second mission was 3 players (at the end the majority of the ti9me was run my 2 players) we increased the count to 195 kills by way of the group exploit, and one player was on the other side intermitently. The reward was 19,500 XP in each of the 3 catagories, and 3,802,500cr.
The second mission was suficint to rais my character's level from 2nd to level 4 (it only actualy raised it to level 3, i'm not sure why).
Now, no one will deny that that was an extreem jump in XP and welth, however i also observed that with level 2 equipment i was all but usless. Since i am a fairly experienced player i think we can assume that the average firt time level 2 player will be as usless on the mission as i was.
My recomendation is that the BP mission be left mostly alone. However if it is the opinion of the devs that these rewards are too extreem for low level players i would recomend changing the mission so that any player who does not kill at least one oponent only gets a consolation reward (perhaps 100XP and 1,000cr). also a reduction in the monetary reward would be reasonable.
I do not see a need to reduce the XP reward because, it makes sence to me that combat on the front lines should grant XP extreemly fast (and it allows for a maner of power-leveling other than a vet letting a n00b kill him a couple times).
in about the same amount of time it took to bot up to level 2 (3 houres plus or minus) i ran 2 BP missions.
The first one was a 2 person mission against only bots. We did not increase the count and the reward was roughly 600 XP in each of the 3 catagories, and 5,400cr
the second mission was 3 players (at the end the majority of the ti9me was run my 2 players) we increased the count to 195 kills by way of the group exploit, and one player was on the other side intermitently. The reward was 19,500 XP in each of the 3 catagories, and 3,802,500cr.
The second mission was suficint to rais my character's level from 2nd to level 4 (it only actualy raised it to level 3, i'm not sure why).
Now, no one will deny that that was an extreem jump in XP and welth, however i also observed that with level 2 equipment i was all but usless. Since i am a fairly experienced player i think we can assume that the average firt time level 2 player will be as usless on the mission as i was.
My recomendation is that the BP mission be left mostly alone. However if it is the opinion of the devs that these rewards are too extreem for low level players i would recomend changing the mission so that any player who does not kill at least one oponent only gets a consolation reward (perhaps 100XP and 1,000cr). also a reduction in the monetary reward would be reasonable.
I do not see a need to reduce the XP reward because, it makes sence to me that combat on the front lines should grant XP extreemly fast (and it allows for a maner of power-leveling other than a vet letting a n00b kill him a couple times).
thing is, people use this bug to hoard credits and to powerlevel alts. in essence, that makes the problem even greater, since vets gain freebies from the mission, while newbies don't. :-(
What everyone here is telling me is that if you exploit the group bug, the mission is broken. If the devs can figure out a way to fix the group bug (maybe a character can only raise the amount of bots once per mission?), it will be more or less fine.
The group "bug" is not an exploit. You do not gain any more reward, or do any less work. You just don't go back to retake every 30 seconds. I just wish the mission auto-continued (preferably proceeding to a new sector).
for two players, it's six bots, right?
600xp, 5400cr is 100xp / 900cr per bot.
now, 195 bots are:
19500 xp, 3 802 500 cr, which is 100 xp / 19500 cr per bot.
you do indeed gain more reward per bot. at 900 cr per bot you should have made 175500 credits on 195 bots. instead you make 3.8M. I've seen a single BP of almost 1K bots yeild almost 40M credits, that's 40000 cr per bot. sure, you "only" get around 100K XP, but hey. add to this that a decent group pulls off 1K bots in 5-6 hours, and, well, crazy is a fitting word. if someone wants to, they should be fully capable of making 200M a week on BP.
600xp, 5400cr is 100xp / 900cr per bot.
now, 195 bots are:
19500 xp, 3 802 500 cr, which is 100 xp / 19500 cr per bot.
you do indeed gain more reward per bot. at 900 cr per bot you should have made 175500 credits on 195 bots. instead you make 3.8M. I've seen a single BP of almost 1K bots yeild almost 40M credits, that's 40000 cr per bot. sure, you "only" get around 100K XP, but hey. add to this that a decent group pulls off 1K bots in 5-6 hours, and, well, crazy is a fitting word. if someone wants to, they should be fully capable of making 200M a week on BP.
OK, then I guess there is a bug in how it calculates the credits. IMO it should be linear, like the XP. I hadn't really looked at the credit reward, just the XP. It's not like it's tough to get filthy rich, even outside of BP.
Very crazy idea worth thinking about...
What if participants had to pledge money down for the defense (itanis) or advancement (sercos) of their nation? Aka, I want to participate in the BP mission. Creating this missions requires a "war fund" deposit (on either side of the battle).
The side that reaches it's goal first gets the loot.
Now, given that it'd be too easy to give only 1 credit to screw the other side in case of a loss, there would have to be a minimum "donation fund" to be given out by whoever created the mission on either side.
Now, out of fairness, the mission computer would also put in money for the NPCs in the same fashion.
The amount of money pledged to this war fund would determine the XP result and the number of NPCs.
Perhaps, also, the system could add some percentage of the donation fund + won loot from other side as a bonus.
Totally unthought-of, un-calculated math in a scenario:
Mogul Velaio creates an Itani Border Patrol mission and shelves out 4000c.
Mogul Velaio creates a combat group and invites Zai, Xai and 76GT500.
It's up to Mogul Velaio to make arrangements, if he wants, to have team mates split the war fund donation costs. They go in.
Serco side, NoFace pledges 2000c and invites Mega Tourista. They go in.
System sees an imbalance and adds 2 Serco NPCs, pledging 2000c for them. System got that number out of the average donation-per-players (Itani + Serco funds div total players).
Total reward cash accumulated: 8000c. System adds 20%. Total: 9600.
Mega Turista is the first to go. Returns but leaves often: he keeps getting flushed by itani players. Itani "Serco Kills" counter goes up. Other players and NPCs coming in and out makes the mission process until either side reaches their "kill counter" first.
The wining side (the Itanis of course) gets the 9600c loot, split amongst players in the BP mission: 9600 div 4 players: each get 2400c.
So, creator of the mission gets to pay initial war funds. It's up to him to get donations for anyone in the group (perhaps before other player gets invited). This also gives some meaning to guild participation. Guilds have created themselves bank characters. Such characters or other players responsible for guild money can actually use these funds for such BP mission (because we still dont have frigate ships to waste this money on). This therefore requires guild funds to be keps replenished from time to time, creating a guild economy of sorts.
Thoughts?
What if participants had to pledge money down for the defense (itanis) or advancement (sercos) of their nation? Aka, I want to participate in the BP mission. Creating this missions requires a "war fund" deposit (on either side of the battle).
The side that reaches it's goal first gets the loot.
Now, given that it'd be too easy to give only 1 credit to screw the other side in case of a loss, there would have to be a minimum "donation fund" to be given out by whoever created the mission on either side.
Now, out of fairness, the mission computer would also put in money for the NPCs in the same fashion.
The amount of money pledged to this war fund would determine the XP result and the number of NPCs.
Perhaps, also, the system could add some percentage of the donation fund + won loot from other side as a bonus.
Totally unthought-of, un-calculated math in a scenario:
Mogul Velaio creates an Itani Border Patrol mission and shelves out 4000c.
Mogul Velaio creates a combat group and invites Zai, Xai and 76GT500.
It's up to Mogul Velaio to make arrangements, if he wants, to have team mates split the war fund donation costs. They go in.
Serco side, NoFace pledges 2000c and invites Mega Tourista. They go in.
System sees an imbalance and adds 2 Serco NPCs, pledging 2000c for them. System got that number out of the average donation-per-players (Itani + Serco funds div total players).
Total reward cash accumulated: 8000c. System adds 20%. Total: 9600.
Mega Turista is the first to go. Returns but leaves often: he keeps getting flushed by itani players. Itani "Serco Kills" counter goes up. Other players and NPCs coming in and out makes the mission process until either side reaches their "kill counter" first.
The wining side (the Itanis of course) gets the 9600c loot, split amongst players in the BP mission: 9600 div 4 players: each get 2400c.
So, creator of the mission gets to pay initial war funds. It's up to him to get donations for anyone in the group (perhaps before other player gets invited). This also gives some meaning to guild participation. Guilds have created themselves bank characters. Such characters or other players responsible for guild money can actually use these funds for such BP mission (because we still dont have frigate ships to waste this money on). This therefore requires guild funds to be keps replenished from time to time, creating a guild economy of sorts.
Thoughts?
Great idea, but then you'd need a bunch of people at one time to make things interesting.
I like the "ante up" idea. Richer players could tempt extra players to come play with greaer amounts of coin. Cuts down on the "Hey anybody doing BP?" messages on 100. One simple message "Mogul Velaio has anted up 2 million credits for BP missions. Mission will begin in 10 minutes."
I like the "ante up" idea. Richer players could tempt extra players to come play with greaer amounts of coin. Cuts down on the "Hey anybody doing BP?" messages on 100. One simple message "Mogul Velaio has anted up 2 million credits for BP missions. Mission will begin in 10 minutes."
I like this.
Timed BP patrols based on a player's acceptance of a new BP mission.
Nothing should prevent multiple BP missions to happen at the same time, given groups are still limited to 8 pilots (can we have that fixed please??). The number of spawned bots is done the same way for any added mission. Nobody has to care if you shoot an NPC/Player from another "mission group". Doesn't matter. in the end, the only thing that matters is the number of poped heads.
Perhaps a reserved announcement channels like 203. A single channel would suffice, this way enemy players might be enticed to join seeing the announced total loot.
Timed BP patrols based on a player's acceptance of a new BP mission.
Nothing should prevent multiple BP missions to happen at the same time, given groups are still limited to 8 pilots (can we have that fixed please??). The number of spawned bots is done the same way for any added mission. Nobody has to care if you shoot an NPC/Player from another "mission group". Doesn't matter. in the end, the only thing that matters is the number of poped heads.
Perhaps a reserved announcement channels like 203. A single channel would suffice, this way enemy players might be enticed to join seeing the announced total loot.
I know many would disagree with me but when the devs are ready to implement crafting and the economy redux I'd be for a full character reset based on this bug...
...and I agree that's an interesting idea on "war funds." In general it's always good if credits come from somewhererather than magically appearing out of nowhere.
...and I agree that's an interesting idea on "war funds." In general it's always good if credits come from somewhererather than magically appearing out of nowhere.
It's Faceless. ;)
But I like the idea. I would also like if some how the "war funds" allowed for better weapons in a fashion much like CtC. i.e.
Thanks to our brave Serco warriors on the front we have been able to save money that would have other wise been spent on offensive incursions into Deneb. This money has been allocated into RnD and we have developed a new [What ever].
Though I would also like to see some stations getting hurt by BP but that's already been discussed.
But I like the idea. I would also like if some how the "war funds" allowed for better weapons in a fashion much like CtC. i.e.
Thanks to our brave Serco warriors on the front we have been able to save money that would have other wise been spent on offensive incursions into Deneb. This money has been allocated into RnD and we have developed a new [What ever].
Though I would also like to see some stations getting hurt by BP but that's already been discussed.
Awww, MAN. I don't wanna level up again from scratch... :(
I was unaware what everyone in my group was doing when they kept leaving and coming back in-group. NOW I know. Hm. So, all the BP mission needs is to keep track of who was in-group and then if the same person rejoins, don't increase the # of bots.
Easy.
I was unaware what everyone in my group was doing when they kept leaving and coming back in-group. NOW I know. Hm. So, all the BP mission needs is to keep track of who was in-group and then if the same person rejoins, don't increase the # of bots.
Easy.
LeberMac,
that wouldn't realy solve anything. Determined players could still use multiple alts to abuse the system admitedly to a lesser degree.
how about this: if you die, then the reward for the group lowers by a certan amount. That way killing large numbers of bots, or taking the mission at low level becomes less likely to yield the extreem reward.
Anyway i don't like the idea of leveling from scratch but having a chance to remake my chracter with no deaths might be cool.
that wouldn't realy solve anything. Determined players could still use multiple alts to abuse the system admitedly to a lesser degree.
how about this: if you die, then the reward for the group lowers by a certan amount. That way killing large numbers of bots, or taking the mission at low level becomes less likely to yield the extreem reward.
Anyway i don't like the idea of leveling from scratch but having a chance to remake my chracter with no deaths might be cool.
OK, yeah, but I can remember a certain member of the group logging in and out like 20 times easy, I just thought he was being funny.
And, yes, determined players could log in through different alts on different computers, have those players sit in a station and then just go pop bots for 3 hours. Yeah, but that's a bit extreme. Then I think we should reward the folks who have 6 simultaneous logins. Heck, that requires effort!
The simplest and easiest solution is just to keep track of who logged in, and if they quit and login again in the same BP group, the mission doesn't add bots.
And, yes, determined players could log in through different alts on different computers, have those players sit in a station and then just go pop bots for 3 hours. Yeah, but that's a bit extreme. Then I think we should reward the folks who have 6 simultaneous logins. Heck, that requires effort!
The simplest and easiest solution is just to keep track of who logged in, and if they quit and login again in the same BP group, the mission doesn't add bots.
[quote]I know many would disagree with me but when the devs are ready to implement crafting and the economy redux I'd be for a full character reset based on this bug...[/quote]
Me too, this bug is crazy, and Beolach, you show me another way to earn 35 million credits within 6 hours? Some of the new guys (who have been here only a couple of months) have more money than I have had since the money bugs in alpha.
Me too, this bug is crazy, and Beolach, you show me another way to earn 35 million credits within 6 hours? Some of the new guys (who have been here only a couple of months) have more money than I have had since the money bugs in alpha.
;-p
I conceeded the point on the credits already, yoda. I never looked at the credit reward closely, just the XP, and the XP is linear. The main reason I never looked at the credit reward closely is that credits are not in short supply. Yes, as it is now it seems BP is the best way to make money, but even if BP gave no credit reward I'd still have plenty of credits.
I'd rather not see a full character reset. I could see it resetting everyone's credits to 0, but I REALLY don't want to redo leveling.
I conceeded the point on the credits already, yoda. I never looked at the credit reward closely, just the XP, and the XP is linear. The main reason I never looked at the credit reward closely is that credits are not in short supply. Yes, as it is now it seems BP is the best way to make money, but even if BP gave no credit reward I'd still have plenty of credits.
I'd rather not see a full character reset. I could see it resetting everyone's credits to 0, but I REALLY don't want to redo leveling.
introducing crafting without at least a monetary reset will screw balance for the new people for a very very long time. the rich (BP) crowd will pay the crafters more credits that the new people can dream of getting, and at the same time, the BP crowd can craft themselves and return the favor. the money never even trickles down to the new people, it stays with the extremly rich.
To be honest, it's remarkable the devs haven't reset everyone yet. I guess they're afraid that would piss too many people off. Since the game is still essentially a beta, with bugs and exploits with every new release, nearly everyone at one point or another has exploited them. Crackbotting and BP come to mind, but I vaguely remember there bing others. Oh, back when you could sell ore and get massive amounts of trading XP. And so forth.
In any real beta, we'd have been reset all over the place. No one has played the "finished product", so we have all these characters that have benefitted unfairly. I've crackbotted, I've used BP to gain mucho money, I remember using the mining thing to get around boring trade missions.
I'd agree to a reset if there were interesting and varied ways to gain XP - not just "Stick with beginner combat until you're level 4 then switch to advanced till you're level 9". Like when the devs start advertising - which will indicate that they've either run out of money or touched up the game to a level they're willing to really show to the world - reset everyone. The diehards will be level 9 in a few weeks while the newbs will get the feeling of starting on an even playing field. Meanwhile, let us keep our artificially inflated characters so that we can avoid the boredom of botting.
In any real beta, we'd have been reset all over the place. No one has played the "finished product", so we have all these characters that have benefitted unfairly. I've crackbotted, I've used BP to gain mucho money, I remember using the mining thing to get around boring trade missions.
I'd agree to a reset if there were interesting and varied ways to gain XP - not just "Stick with beginner combat until you're level 4 then switch to advanced till you're level 9". Like when the devs start advertising - which will indicate that they've either run out of money or touched up the game to a level they're willing to really show to the world - reset everyone. The diehards will be level 9 in a few weeks while the newbs will get the feeling of starting on an even playing field. Meanwhile, let us keep our artificially inflated characters so that we can avoid the boredom of botting.
Al said: ...introducing crafting without at least a monetary reset will screw balance for the new people for a very very long time. the rich (BP) crowd will pay the crafters more credits that the new people can dream of getting, and at the same time, the BP crowd can craft themselves and return the favor. the money never even trickles down to the new people, it stays with the extremly rich.
Rich get richer, eh? Sadly I agree with Starfisher & Alamar now.
When the game goes public we'll probably all be reset. Which sucks. I agree with a monetary reset once/if the BP missions are "fixed." I kinda disagree with an XP reset, but I understand its importance.
You guys all level up faster than I ever could. Botting is such a pain in my ass. (Especially Now - MAN! Assaults are FAST!) <sigh> But, OK. If that's what has to be done, then so be it. Here comes another 3 months of the botting grind...
Level 9 in a few weeks? Maybe if I quit my job, ignored my family and did nothing buy Play Vendetta from noon till night.
Rich get richer, eh? Sadly I agree with Starfisher & Alamar now.
When the game goes public we'll probably all be reset. Which sucks. I agree with a monetary reset once/if the BP missions are "fixed." I kinda disagree with an XP reset, but I understand its importance.
You guys all level up faster than I ever could. Botting is such a pain in my ass. (Especially Now - MAN! Assaults are FAST!) <sigh> But, OK. If that's what has to be done, then so be it. Here comes another 3 months of the botting grind...
Level 9 in a few weeks? Maybe if I quit my job, ignored my family and did nothing buy Play Vendetta from noon till night.