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Wasn't sure if this was a general or suggestions...
Just wanted to point out that Deneb is absurdly easy to win now with ActivateTurrets. Not only isn't is absurdly easy, but there is also significant kill farming that is occurring.
Just have a look at this week of deneb stats and you'll see all those who took their capships into battle had ridiculously high kill counts.
https://www.vendetta-online.com/x/dwstats/738481
Small and medium skirmishes are easily vanquished by sitting safely in your capship and having the turrets do the dirty work.
Now, I'm quite lazy myself and don't mind it too much. But I can see it getting out of hand and think perhaps a bit more aggression against player capships might be warranted to balance things out.
Just wanted to point out that Deneb is absurdly easy to win now with ActivateTurrets. Not only isn't is absurdly easy, but there is also significant kill farming that is occurring.
Just have a look at this week of deneb stats and you'll see all those who took their capships into battle had ridiculously high kill counts.
https://www.vendetta-online.com/x/dwstats/738481
Small and medium skirmishes are easily vanquished by sitting safely in your capship and having the turrets do the dirty work.
Now, I'm quite lazy myself and don't mind it too much. But I can see it getting out of hand and think perhaps a bit more aggression against player capships might be warranted to balance things out.
There already is a lot of aggression against player capships. The Sercos get deshielded fast by the ganking valks, and have to pull out. The Itani get deshield fast by the ganking proms and have to pull out. The best solution is to bring more players to deneb and duke it out.
Isn't it because those who bring capships also tend to come in a group? With enough living pilots looking out for each other, anything VO throws at them would just be a cakewalk.
*Looks at ONE records* yep 1 capship pilot and 1 lightship pilot creates a well balanced team.
Get some friend to help :)
Get some friend to help :)
I kind of have to take the serco side on this.... The itani can easely bring capships and do what the sercos are doing.
Also capships in deneb where already powerful w/o activate turrets. As they can easily Deshield anything when played right.
And player capships will be deshielded quite fast under little capital pressure from the NPC's
Also capships in deneb where already powerful w/o activate turrets. As they can easily Deshield anything when played right.
And player capships will be deshielded quite fast under little capital pressure from the NPC's
This point has been made but valks will deshield a Serco players and anyone fighting on the Serco sides, dent or goli fast. Those of us who bring our capships into deneb skrims are taking a risk bringing them into the skrims.
I have edited this thread to remove unnecessarily incendiary remarks. The Suggestions forum is to be a safe place to suggest and discuss ideas.
Rule #3 - Be respectful of other players and play-styles with your Suggestions and feedback.
Be respectful of other individuals. Critique the Suggestion and not the Person. Don't be rude.
This is a "sandbox" MMO, people can play as traders, or pirates, or miners, or any number of other other potential options, and all be just as "legitimate" in their place in the VO Universe.
Rule #3 - Be respectful of other players and play-styles with your Suggestions and feedback.
Be respectful of other individuals. Critique the Suggestion and not the Person. Don't be rude.
This is a "sandbox" MMO, people can play as traders, or pirates, or miners, or any number of other other potential options, and all be just as "legitimate" in their place in the VO Universe.
There is absolutely no risk to bringing in capships if there aren't adept human enemies present (who know what is needed to counter). Even if opposition NPCs chip away at your armor, you can still jump away at any moment and rep in a safe sector due to the lack of PCBs used by NPCs.
My comments are geared towards seeking balance. It's great that people are bringing their capships into battle and I hope whatever balancing that might be introduced doesn't go so far as to disincentivize it. Obviously that's a fluid task, given that capships are also in a state of evolution.
My comments are geared towards seeking balance. It's great that people are bringing their capships into battle and I hope whatever balancing that might be introduced doesn't go so far as to disincentivize it. Obviously that's a fluid task, given that capships are also in a state of evolution.
Ok, sure, do you know how many times I almost lost my Goliath in Deneb? Too many mostly because of getting deshielded by the valks, on top of that almost losing my goli to Many of the npc capships, you claim it for balance but have you flown a capital ship into deneb on a Serco character? There is no risk okay sure, no risk when 3 to 4 valks can deshielded a player dent or goli or both you call that no risk? Surely you jest.
greenwall, the itani valks get capships desheilded quickly. Just cause flying an itani capship in deneb is easy, I'll tell you it is not on the serco side. We need groups to do what we do. We can't sit there like the itani seem to say they can. and for the record... my capship is sometimes not is sector or even on that side of space when I'm shooting things in my taur.
Isn't it because those who bring capships also tend to come in a group? With enough living pilots looking out for each other, anything VO throws at them would just be a cakewalk.
I mean, sure, I get your point Luxen. Group play is a good thing. But I think the difference here is it's all automated. Seems kinda far fetched that being able to saunter into a deneb skirm with three player capships on your team and be able to park and chat away while your turrets auto-kill all the NPC fighters was the kind of group play that incarnate was hoping for.
I mean, sure, I get your point Luxen. Group play is a good thing. But I think the difference here is it's all automated. Seems kinda far fetched that being able to saunter into a deneb skirm with three player capships on your team and be able to park and chat away while your turrets auto-kill all the NPC fighters was the kind of group play that incarnate was hoping for.
A few thoughts:
I see Deneb as more of catalyst for getting players to fight each other. To that end, the best action to combat a perceived problem of player capships in deneb, is to bring weapons to combat them. Serco capships in Deneb are particularly vulnerable because they have no safe spaces to go to for repairs. If they go to B-12, prepared Itani players will be there waiting to finish them off. Itani on the other hand can make their way to O-3 deneb where there are turrets and strike force to cover their repairs.
All player capships are vulnerable to PCB attack in Deneb. Especially when those cap ships are equipped with turrets that use energy. Add in the fact that more the damaged a ship is, the more energy it requires to jump, a damaged pcbed capship is dead in the water in a Deneb skirm.
I see Deneb as more of catalyst for getting players to fight each other. To that end, the best action to combat a perceived problem of player capships in deneb, is to bring weapons to combat them. Serco capships in Deneb are particularly vulnerable because they have no safe spaces to go to for repairs. If they go to B-12, prepared Itani players will be there waiting to finish them off. Itani on the other hand can make their way to O-3 deneb where there are turrets and strike force to cover their repairs.
All player capships are vulnerable to PCB attack in Deneb. Especially when those cap ships are equipped with turrets that use energy. Add in the fact that more the damaged a ship is, the more energy it requires to jump, a damaged pcbed capship is dead in the water in a Deneb skirm.
@We all float
You are correct in that Itani have an advantage of safe harbor when comparing player capship use strategies in deneb. This is not to say, however, Serco can't evade and safely repair in Deneb, which they can with ease. That is not what this thread is about.
You are only half correct in regards to PCBs, probably due to lack of experience i'm guessing. You also totally skirt the issue at hand, which is not whether player capships can be countered in a balanced way by opposing human forces, but whether auto-killing / farming Deneb skirmishes in capships is a good thing.
Addressing your PCB thoughts:
The capital ships in question here use capital cannons, which do not use ANY energy. Training a PCB on a goliath in a Deneb skirm that is countering by shooting you with both of its capguass is actually really difficult. Doable, but difficult.
Based on my recent experience in actually playing Deneb skirmishes against participating enemy player capships, I would estimate that it would take at least three experienced players to counter/destroy a single experienced enemy player capship (with capguass). And two of those players have to be in configurations (with PCBs) that make them totally ineffective against NPCs in the actual skirmish.
Is that a fair balance? It's debatable, but perhaps. Even so, there simply are not enough players in the game to effectively pose an adequate counter to player capships over the course of the week.
More of an issue is the ease in which *unopposed* player capships can vanquish skirmishes with a simple chat command. NPC forces do not carry PCBs, and they do not pursue you outside of the sector.
I think a solution, based on existing understanding of the game, would be a mechanism that both makes loss of capships less catastrophic (i.e. capital shipyards nearby for both sides, with available insurance mission) alongside a mechanism that demands more skill / strategy from player capship pilots (i.e. introducing NPCs with PCBs based on certain conditions, or introducing additional offensive options to the disadvantaged side).
Incarnate had mentioned a long time ago implementing some kind of leveling/ranking system in the Deneb war. Perhaps part of this ranking system would come with advanced/augmented control over NPCs to steer them towards certain targets, or with the ability to call in reserve specialist forces to counter specific unique threats (i.e. a limited use PCB seeker squad, or bombers etc).
You are correct in that Itani have an advantage of safe harbor when comparing player capship use strategies in deneb. This is not to say, however, Serco can't evade and safely repair in Deneb, which they can with ease. That is not what this thread is about.
You are only half correct in regards to PCBs, probably due to lack of experience i'm guessing. You also totally skirt the issue at hand, which is not whether player capships can be countered in a balanced way by opposing human forces, but whether auto-killing / farming Deneb skirmishes in capships is a good thing.
Addressing your PCB thoughts:
The capital ships in question here use capital cannons, which do not use ANY energy. Training a PCB on a goliath in a Deneb skirm that is countering by shooting you with both of its capguass is actually really difficult. Doable, but difficult.
Based on my recent experience in actually playing Deneb skirmishes against participating enemy player capships, I would estimate that it would take at least three experienced players to counter/destroy a single experienced enemy player capship (with capguass). And two of those players have to be in configurations (with PCBs) that make them totally ineffective against NPCs in the actual skirmish.
Is that a fair balance? It's debatable, but perhaps. Even so, there simply are not enough players in the game to effectively pose an adequate counter to player capships over the course of the week.
More of an issue is the ease in which *unopposed* player capships can vanquish skirmishes with a simple chat command. NPC forces do not carry PCBs, and they do not pursue you outside of the sector.
I think a solution, based on existing understanding of the game, would be a mechanism that both makes loss of capships less catastrophic (i.e. capital shipyards nearby for both sides, with available insurance mission) alongside a mechanism that demands more skill / strategy from player capship pilots (i.e. introducing NPCs with PCBs based on certain conditions, or introducing additional offensive options to the disadvantaged side).
Incarnate had mentioned a long time ago implementing some kind of leveling/ranking system in the Deneb war. Perhaps part of this ranking system would come with advanced/augmented control over NPCs to steer them towards certain targets, or with the ability to call in reserve specialist forces to counter specific unique threats (i.e. a limited use PCB seeker squad, or bombers etc).
I deleted a post. Again:
Rule #3 - Be respectful of other players and play-styles with your Suggestions and feedback.
Be respectful of other individuals. Critique the Suggestion and not the Person. Don't be rude.
This is a "sandbox" MMO, people can play as traders, or pirates, or miners, or any number of other other potential options, and all be just as "legitimate" in their place in the VO Universe.
Rule #3 - Be respectful of other players and play-styles with your Suggestions and feedback.
Be respectful of other individuals. Critique the Suggestion and not the Person. Don't be rude.
This is a "sandbox" MMO, people can play as traders, or pirates, or miners, or any number of other other potential options, and all be just as "legitimate" in their place in the VO Universe.
Based on my recent experience in actually playing Deneb skirmishes against participating enemy player capships, I would estimate that it would take at least three experienced players to counter/destroy a single experienced enemy player capship (with capguass).
Counter being the keyword here: Lots of ways to counter a capship with just a single player. Destroying it doesn't have to be your primary objective. Just removing the piece the board can be effective.
Also NPCs do a fine job on their own at deshielding player capships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFzysS4UM_I
Once the ship is deshielded, it can't last long before being removed from the board. Leaving (while the ship is being repped) the other team plenty of time to make a huge amount of progress in the mission.
Counter being the keyword here: Lots of ways to counter a capship with just a single player. Destroying it doesn't have to be your primary objective. Just removing the piece the board can be effective.
Also NPCs do a fine job on their own at deshielding player capships: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFzysS4UM_I
Once the ship is deshielded, it can't last long before being removed from the board. Leaving (while the ship is being repped) the other team plenty of time to make a huge amount of progress in the mission.
My inclination here, if there is a problem with player-capships impacting the balance of Deneb, is to ban player-capships from Deneb.
There's definitely a big "haves" vs "have-nots" tradeoff to capships, and Deneb isn't really intended for that; it's supposed to be based around the respective military's hardware. There is an intended future player-progression system within the "military" structure, which Greenie alludes to, but that would still encompass a rank system that allows increased command within the military, not involving "external" civilian ships.
To date, I've mostly just ignored the issue of player-caps in Deneb, beyond the obvious exploit of when off-mission ships were being used as an infinite repair area. But, it's reasonable that the new turret options are pretty formidable and can have a major impact on the outcome.
This is likely to become more challenging down the road, with more types of capships and weapons.. so rather than get into some kind of complex "player-capship balancing act", I would prefer to just.. remove them from the board entirely.
There's definitely a big "haves" vs "have-nots" tradeoff to capships, and Deneb isn't really intended for that; it's supposed to be based around the respective military's hardware. There is an intended future player-progression system within the "military" structure, which Greenie alludes to, but that would still encompass a rank system that allows increased command within the military, not involving "external" civilian ships.
To date, I've mostly just ignored the issue of player-caps in Deneb, beyond the obvious exploit of when off-mission ships were being used as an infinite repair area. But, it's reasonable that the new turret options are pretty formidable and can have a major impact on the outcome.
This is likely to become more challenging down the road, with more types of capships and weapons.. so rather than get into some kind of complex "player-capship balancing act", I would prefer to just.. remove them from the board entirely.
well that's a bummer. If I were to have to choose between the way it is now and not having any, i'd go with the way it is now.
If that is your take incarnate then why not just remove player capships from the game entirely.
Capships give an advantage to all aspects of the gameplay, that is why everyone strives to build them.
Does a player capship give you a leg up in Deneb, yes, but it's fair because both sides can use them.
If this is about making Deneb fair then instead I believe the focus should be on giving Serco a station in Deneb as that is the most unbalanced aspect in this game that is actually out of the players control.
Capships give an advantage to all aspects of the gameplay, that is why everyone strives to build them.
Does a player capship give you a leg up in Deneb, yes, but it's fair because both sides can use them.
If this is about making Deneb fair then instead I believe the focus should be on giving Serco a station in Deneb as that is the most unbalanced aspect in this game that is actually out of the players control.
If that is your take incarnate then why not just remove player capships from the game entirely.
That's a silly argument, and capship usage in Deneb accounts for only a miniscule amount of their overall value.
Does a player capship give you a leg up in Deneb, yes, but it's fair because both sides can use them.
Not really. It gives a tiny fraction of the userbase an outsized influence over the outcome of a conflict which has far-ranging impacts to more than just the owner(s) of the capship(s).
How much more relevant and important should your Deneb gameplay be, than some random "casual" guy who can only play as a fighter pilot? Should it be 10x more relevant? 100x more relevant? At what point does the random guy feel like anything he wants to do in Deneb is effectively useless, if he's primarily facing off against endgame players who are able to drastically tilt the outcome of conflict?
The whole notion of "it's fair because both sides can use them" is a bit silly, since people with endgame content tend to be hyper-organized into guilds and frequently aligned on common goals, and they're pretty limited in number. So, everyone deciding to throw Deneb in one direction, or another, could be both fairly easy, with a relatively small number of players, and (given capship advantages) potentially be intractable for any "regular / casual players" to offset or defend against.
If this is about making Deneb fair then instead I believe the focus should be on giving Serco a station in Deneb as that is the most unbalanced aspect in this game that is actually out of the players control.
Yes, and that will be changed, a lot of things are going to change about Deneb. But that isn't what we're discussing here.
Deneb was not supposed to be about Your Ship, or Your Equipment, it was supposed to be about collaborative service within a separate military structure. Something that someone could advance within, and not have to dedicate thousands of hours to capship construction (or whatever endgame activity), but still have some sense of advancement, achievement, and large-scale event participation.
If we go down a road where player-owned capital ships yield a really significant advantage in this kind of conquest scenario, then that will diminish the value of players who do not have those kinds of capabilities.
Far from the argument of "If we can't use capships in this one thing, then remove them from everything!@#", this was actually supposed to be THE ONE THING where individual endgame-player capabilities didn't necessarily rule the roost.
There are lots of other future opportunities for combative gameplay with capital ships.. privateering with dynamic warfare between minor factions in grayspace, long-duration exploration that requires repair facilities, ability to access areas that have as-yet-unseen regional hazards, conflict over conquerable territory, etc.
But, if capships become a serious balance problem for Deneb (which seemed like it was the focus of this thread?), then that's eventually going to be a problem for me. Because capships are going to become more and more capable, and player-controlled capship activity is likely to have a greater impact on Deneb than I can trivially offset through AI activity, or classical balance tweaking.
I am not saying I'm definitively banning player-owned capships from Deneb at the moment, but I am saying they were never part of the intended "model" for Deneb. Deneb is basically a "conflict between nations", major nationally-funded and structured militaries fighting a large-scale war, with ranking systems allowing for increased advancement and benefits. The capships were intended to belong to the militaries.
That's a silly argument, and capship usage in Deneb accounts for only a miniscule amount of their overall value.
Does a player capship give you a leg up in Deneb, yes, but it's fair because both sides can use them.
Not really. It gives a tiny fraction of the userbase an outsized influence over the outcome of a conflict which has far-ranging impacts to more than just the owner(s) of the capship(s).
How much more relevant and important should your Deneb gameplay be, than some random "casual" guy who can only play as a fighter pilot? Should it be 10x more relevant? 100x more relevant? At what point does the random guy feel like anything he wants to do in Deneb is effectively useless, if he's primarily facing off against endgame players who are able to drastically tilt the outcome of conflict?
The whole notion of "it's fair because both sides can use them" is a bit silly, since people with endgame content tend to be hyper-organized into guilds and frequently aligned on common goals, and they're pretty limited in number. So, everyone deciding to throw Deneb in one direction, or another, could be both fairly easy, with a relatively small number of players, and (given capship advantages) potentially be intractable for any "regular / casual players" to offset or defend against.
If this is about making Deneb fair then instead I believe the focus should be on giving Serco a station in Deneb as that is the most unbalanced aspect in this game that is actually out of the players control.
Yes, and that will be changed, a lot of things are going to change about Deneb. But that isn't what we're discussing here.
Deneb was not supposed to be about Your Ship, or Your Equipment, it was supposed to be about collaborative service within a separate military structure. Something that someone could advance within, and not have to dedicate thousands of hours to capship construction (or whatever endgame activity), but still have some sense of advancement, achievement, and large-scale event participation.
If we go down a road where player-owned capital ships yield a really significant advantage in this kind of conquest scenario, then that will diminish the value of players who do not have those kinds of capabilities.
Far from the argument of "If we can't use capships in this one thing, then remove them from everything!@#", this was actually supposed to be THE ONE THING where individual endgame-player capabilities didn't necessarily rule the roost.
There are lots of other future opportunities for combative gameplay with capital ships.. privateering with dynamic warfare between minor factions in grayspace, long-duration exploration that requires repair facilities, ability to access areas that have as-yet-unseen regional hazards, conflict over conquerable territory, etc.
But, if capships become a serious balance problem for Deneb (which seemed like it was the focus of this thread?), then that's eventually going to be a problem for me. Because capships are going to become more and more capable, and player-controlled capship activity is likely to have a greater impact on Deneb than I can trivially offset through AI activity, or classical balance tweaking.
I am not saying I'm definitively banning player-owned capships from Deneb at the moment, but I am saying they were never part of the intended "model" for Deneb. Deneb is basically a "conflict between nations", major nationally-funded and structured militaries fighting a large-scale war, with ranking systems allowing for increased advancement and benefits. The capships were intended to belong to the militaries.
But, if capships become a serious balance problem for Deneb (which seemed like it was the focus of this thread?), then that's eventually going to be a problem for me.
They most certainly will be a balance problem, and I was just basically raising the occurrence of this issue to public discussion. I was thinking more in terms of stat-manipulation (a la the race tracks being done in 3 seconds, or the duel system being exploited with easy kills, etc). For stats to have any meaning in the game there needs to be some controls over how they can be achieved. Personally I don't think people should get rewarded for kills made on their behalf by an auto-turret But I also wouldn't fall on that sword if the only alternative was to completely ban player capships from Deneb, though I would certainly understand if you made the change given what you said above.
The truth is that player owned capships were really rarely used in Deneb prior to ActivateTurrets, as they didn't really offer much advantage over what was already there.
They most certainly will be a balance problem, and I was just basically raising the occurrence of this issue to public discussion. I was thinking more in terms of stat-manipulation (a la the race tracks being done in 3 seconds, or the duel system being exploited with easy kills, etc). For stats to have any meaning in the game there needs to be some controls over how they can be achieved. Personally I don't think people should get rewarded for kills made on their behalf by an auto-turret But I also wouldn't fall on that sword if the only alternative was to completely ban player capships from Deneb, though I would certainly understand if you made the change given what you said above.
The truth is that player owned capships were really rarely used in Deneb prior to ActivateTurrets, as they didn't really offer much advantage over what was already there.