Forums » Suggestions
Crafting Suggestions (moved from sarahanne's thread)
Thread 'crafting' begins to separate from content thread here.
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Sat 06:28PM: Magus
For a twitch based game I can't imagine any crafting system that doesn't affect game balance.
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Sat 06:37PM: Phaserlight
Just from reading the descriptions of some of the widgets it seems like the devs have crafting in mind: "Ion Cores: a primary component used in ion weapons."
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Sat 07:09PM: Rascal
For a twitch based game I can't imagine any crafting system that doesn't affect game balance.
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I don't see how crafting has anything to do with twitch-based combat. Whether you make the weapon yourself or buy it, you'll still be able to fire it the old-fashioned way.
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Sat 07:57PM: Magus
But the weapons would have different properties than the current weapons yes? If they do then it is likely that they will be unbalanced with the current weapons of that combat level.
And if they're the same as current weapons, then what's the point of spending effort on a "crafting" skill when you might as well buy them and focus on other things?
If you really want something similar to crafting I think it should be oriented around modifying your ship rather than your items. Some sort of "mechanic" skill that allows you to make mild tweaks to engines to get max speed/batt. efficiency tradeoffs or something.
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Sat 08:02PM: Rascal
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If they do then it is likely that they will be unbalanced with the current weapons of that combat level.
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Unbalanced? Can you be more specific?
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Sat 08:57PM: Starfisher
Let's say you make a better gauss then the standard one. Now you have an advantage in combat. I suppose you could say "well I put the work in, let me have that advantage" which does hold some truth. The only problem is that weapons balance is very delicate - mach tachs 20m/s faster, for instance, and they would be VERY good indeed.
So the crafting increases in power or speed or whatever would have to be minimal to avoid creating an uber weapon... and in every other MMORPG game I've played people craft in order to gain significant advantage over others.
Maybe if there were tradeoffs. For instance, I could craft a tach that went faster but lost damage. Then I could sell it as "Tachyon Blaster - With extra fisher love!" Since weapons recently acquired a volume, it would appear making them transportable as cargo is not that much greater of a step. I could have a cargo hold full of Fisher Love Tachs and go from station to station advertising.
This would be cool and interesting... but would probably be post release due to the complexity of inventing the engineer/mechanic/crafter role and balancing whatever you could produce.
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Sat 09:02PM: Magus
Like, a weapon that's too powerful. . .
People can't really design their own graphics or sounds for weapons nor can they mess around with the stats too heavily or you'll end up with a tachyon too much autoaim or a graviton with too little energy consumption on it. It'll create another balancing nightmare just before release. So you can't give crafters too much freedom or you end up with uber-weapons. Since nothing in Vendetta operates on a "dice-roll" system, crafting would have to be "skill based" somehow to stay within the context of the game, and I can't even imagine how you would prevent someone from making uber-weapons in any realistic way.
That said, I always assumed crafting was out there for people to express some level of creativity. But the only crafting I see possible is making copies of the same weapons we have now, with mildly altered stats. So I just don't see people getting any satisfaction from that.
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Sun 12:24AM: Rascal
Thanks for the clarification, Magus. I think you have a different idea of crafting than I do. Players would not take the place of developers in designing the weapons or other items from scratch. That's not how it has been done in any of the MMORPGs I have played. Rather, players will acquire the blueprint for the special weapon or item in-game, perhaps from a mission or drop, and use various materials or components to construct the weapon. These materials or components can be either mined or looted, and some may be bought. The idea is to put some loot or harvested resources to good use other than sell them for credits. Its akin to a good old-fashioned scavenger hunt. Players will scour the galaxy to collect the materials to build a weapon or other item that has slightly more power than what can normally be acquired at stations. Crafting is just another activity that some people can have fun doing.
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Sun 03:26AM: Magus
Wait, you mean to tell me that not only are people willing to do this. . . but they enjoy it?
Wow. Just. . . wow.
Well, if people actually derive pleasure from that sort of thing I don't see the harm in it. The current mission could probably support this but it would be pretty simplistic.
I can see it working as follows, (my inspiration would be the Biggoron sword arc from Ocarina of Time :D)
So, you start by buying a blueprint from some shady weapons dealer. The blueprint goes in your inventory menu (not cargo hold) until you choose to sell it or throw it away or something.
As long as you have the blueprint, you have a selectable mission in your missions tab. The mission gives you a list of items and you have to go around collecting them, bring them back, and you get a fancy new Gauss cannon that took way too much work. This stuff is possibly obtained by scanning various bots or roids or buying things in stations. You'd have to buy a special scanner of course.
Pretty simple to do. I suppose, if we implement ctishman's "fog of war" idea (as I'm fond of calling it) it would be a great mission to encourage exploration.
You might even be able to create high level items via crafting. For example: "All Itani Monks from the Order of Eo must undergo a rite of passage that involves making a pilgrimage, undergoing a series of tests, and then finally, building their own energy focus." Something like that.
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Sun 12:09PM: Rascal
I also agree with the idea that the game can benefit from the inclusion of a few raids. Raids are another MMORPG staple and they are great fun. For those who do not know, a raid happens when a group of players attempts to defeat a high-level NPC or MOB boss and his minions. These guys are usually too tough for solo players or even small groups. This encourages teamplay and often leads to the discovery of novel battle tactics. The reward is often a high-level item that is then lottoed to see who in the group gets it. The MOB boss usually only spawns once a day or once every X number of days, or perhaps it can even be triggered by a mission.
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Sun 12:52PM: Starfisher
Rascal: See this thread:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/6630
I think it's a start to what you propose, and one that seems to be implementable with the current AI and game structure.
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Sun 07:36PM: simondearsly
I like the 'craft' idea in acquireing better ships or weapons.
A random bot could drop a cargo container when killed (or something) which contains a weapon/bettery/ship/some-other-item blueprint. Picking this up trigers a series of missions ie:
"This looks like a blueprint for some kind of energy weapon. The specifications remind you of the standard Guass cannon, but there are some strange looking modifications to the drive assembly.You could take the blue print to Corvus Strong Hold, Odia, rumour has it that the weapon engineers there are very good at prototyping low power energy weapons... for a price"
When you get to Odia and dock, you meet with a shaddy engineer. It turns out the blueprint is for a low energy consumption, high damage Guass Cannon, but he will need some supplies to produce a weapon prototype for you. This sets of a string of missions in which you must find obscure items form stations, bots or even other players. Eventauly, you complete the missions and a new weapon prototype is available for you at that station. From now on, you can take a mission from the station to produce the new weapon, but it requires a fair amount of hunting for parts, though not as much as building the prototype.
What we make things much more interesting would be if players could trade weapons, ships, batteries, weapons, and items from these missions to other players. Players would set their price depending on how long or how hard the had to work to acquire the item in the first place. Even finding the blueprint in the first place would be a very random event, or spawned from another mission. Heck, even accepting the initial mission could spawn a PVP mission for another faction. Someone could be tasked to intercept you on your way to Odia!
Not sure if this kind of thing can be done within the engine, but I sure hope so. This kind of thing would make the current game far more interesting.
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Sun 10:27PM: SmallHorse
Seems like an auction house would be nice if some form of crafting were implemented. That way non crafters could sell the parts they find to crafters and crafters could sell stuff they make and whatnot. Although im not even sure how a crafting system would even fit in.
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Mon 12:12AM: Rascal
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There is some good stuff showeing up here. I got the impression from previous post that we were working under different definitions for "crafting". Maybe some of these suggestions will be addressed in time for the release.
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A crafting system can take different forms. A "scavenger hunt" would be an example of a quest-based system and would probably be the easiest and quickest one to implement in Vendetta. The player doing the "crafting" would probably not even need a crafting skill. A crafting system such as that employed by EnB, where virtually all vendor and looted items, including ammunition, could be analyzed and built (or rebuilt), would require a considerable revision of the game.
Some players enjoy crafting, while others hate it. Trading will allow crafters to sell their handiwork to those who do not care to hunt down the parts to build an item for themselves. This way crafters will not necessarily have an unfair advantage in equipment over those who only like to fight. It will also create a player market for certain looted or mined goods. Perhaps the trading can occur in bars, making those rooms useful.
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Mon 06:45AM: Demonen
Crafting suggestion:
- Pay a station 100.000 credits to hire a lab for one month or whatever.
- Get a blueprint from a killed bot, buy it from another player or hire some scientist to create a "XiteGauss".
- Get the advanced targeting systems, the Xirite Alloy for the casing, the Xithricite for pressing ammo etc.
--!Here's where my idea is different!--
- In station a sort of puzzle appears. If you solve it you get the XiteGauss, if time runs out you can take the upgraded blueprints (20% XiteGauss prototype) with you or hire the lab for another month.
- Maybe I can even decide to go to production with a 90% model,
knowing it's not as good as the 100% model, yet still somewhat better than the original.
- The weapon is like the Gauss, only it takes a Large port, is somewhat faster and more powerful, but needs ammo to operate. The color of the bolt is green instead of blue since the bolt is Xithricite-based.
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Wed 08:29PM: Danbetheroy
Sorry back on to crafting.
The idea of crafting does not have to result in uber items.
Imagine a noob equiped with his first ship and basic components, who goes botting for the first time, all the components ores and the like gained from the lower bots should be able to be combined to make the components required if he was to lose his ship, he could look up the components needed to build say the basic battery and if he had the necessary components pay 50% of cost and obtain a new one built from what he had scavenged. As he moves up levels he can build the higher grade batteries which will need parts from higher level bots etc. This would also make botting more diverse and meaningful.
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Thu 11:27AM: harvestmouse
Crafting skill could give you the ability to build really good weapons, but when you die, your weapon goes with it, and you'll have to spend a lot of time collecting material (unless you stocked up very well) before you could create another weapon.
(on the side topic of minigames/challenge-- this could apply to crafting and a lot of other things.. say, like piloting a capital ship?
Each member of the crew could have a different task... and the tasks could be like minigames. There could be someone who plays the ammo reload game, someone who plays the targeting homers game, someone who plays the navigating-ship game, someone who plays the repairing game, the engine pressure/energy game...
effectively splitting up tasks among many people; and when you have a great crew, your ship will be more agile, have better defenses and energy than ships with less skilled members.)
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End Thread-a-port of crafting comments
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Sat 06:28PM: Magus
For a twitch based game I can't imagine any crafting system that doesn't affect game balance.
=====================================================
Sat 06:37PM: Phaserlight
Just from reading the descriptions of some of the widgets it seems like the devs have crafting in mind: "Ion Cores: a primary component used in ion weapons."
=====================================================
Sat 07:09PM: Rascal
For a twitch based game I can't imagine any crafting system that doesn't affect game balance.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I don't see how crafting has anything to do with twitch-based combat. Whether you make the weapon yourself or buy it, you'll still be able to fire it the old-fashioned way.
=====================================================
Sat 07:57PM: Magus
But the weapons would have different properties than the current weapons yes? If they do then it is likely that they will be unbalanced with the current weapons of that combat level.
And if they're the same as current weapons, then what's the point of spending effort on a "crafting" skill when you might as well buy them and focus on other things?
If you really want something similar to crafting I think it should be oriented around modifying your ship rather than your items. Some sort of "mechanic" skill that allows you to make mild tweaks to engines to get max speed/batt. efficiency tradeoffs or something.
=====================================================
Sat 08:02PM: Rascal
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If they do then it is likely that they will be unbalanced with the current weapons of that combat level.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Unbalanced? Can you be more specific?
=====================================================
Sat 08:57PM: Starfisher
Let's say you make a better gauss then the standard one. Now you have an advantage in combat. I suppose you could say "well I put the work in, let me have that advantage" which does hold some truth. The only problem is that weapons balance is very delicate - mach tachs 20m/s faster, for instance, and they would be VERY good indeed.
So the crafting increases in power or speed or whatever would have to be minimal to avoid creating an uber weapon... and in every other MMORPG game I've played people craft in order to gain significant advantage over others.
Maybe if there were tradeoffs. For instance, I could craft a tach that went faster but lost damage. Then I could sell it as "Tachyon Blaster - With extra fisher love!" Since weapons recently acquired a volume, it would appear making them transportable as cargo is not that much greater of a step. I could have a cargo hold full of Fisher Love Tachs and go from station to station advertising.
This would be cool and interesting... but would probably be post release due to the complexity of inventing the engineer/mechanic/crafter role and balancing whatever you could produce.
=====================================================
Sat 09:02PM: Magus
Like, a weapon that's too powerful. . .
People can't really design their own graphics or sounds for weapons nor can they mess around with the stats too heavily or you'll end up with a tachyon too much autoaim or a graviton with too little energy consumption on it. It'll create another balancing nightmare just before release. So you can't give crafters too much freedom or you end up with uber-weapons. Since nothing in Vendetta operates on a "dice-roll" system, crafting would have to be "skill based" somehow to stay within the context of the game, and I can't even imagine how you would prevent someone from making uber-weapons in any realistic way.
That said, I always assumed crafting was out there for people to express some level of creativity. But the only crafting I see possible is making copies of the same weapons we have now, with mildly altered stats. So I just don't see people getting any satisfaction from that.
=====================================================
Sun 12:24AM: Rascal
Thanks for the clarification, Magus. I think you have a different idea of crafting than I do. Players would not take the place of developers in designing the weapons or other items from scratch. That's not how it has been done in any of the MMORPGs I have played. Rather, players will acquire the blueprint for the special weapon or item in-game, perhaps from a mission or drop, and use various materials or components to construct the weapon. These materials or components can be either mined or looted, and some may be bought. The idea is to put some loot or harvested resources to good use other than sell them for credits. Its akin to a good old-fashioned scavenger hunt. Players will scour the galaxy to collect the materials to build a weapon or other item that has slightly more power than what can normally be acquired at stations. Crafting is just another activity that some people can have fun doing.
=====================================================
Sun 03:26AM: Magus
Wait, you mean to tell me that not only are people willing to do this. . . but they enjoy it?
Wow. Just. . . wow.
Well, if people actually derive pleasure from that sort of thing I don't see the harm in it. The current mission could probably support this but it would be pretty simplistic.
I can see it working as follows, (my inspiration would be the Biggoron sword arc from Ocarina of Time :D)
So, you start by buying a blueprint from some shady weapons dealer. The blueprint goes in your inventory menu (not cargo hold) until you choose to sell it or throw it away or something.
As long as you have the blueprint, you have a selectable mission in your missions tab. The mission gives you a list of items and you have to go around collecting them, bring them back, and you get a fancy new Gauss cannon that took way too much work. This stuff is possibly obtained by scanning various bots or roids or buying things in stations. You'd have to buy a special scanner of course.
Pretty simple to do. I suppose, if we implement ctishman's "fog of war" idea (as I'm fond of calling it) it would be a great mission to encourage exploration.
You might even be able to create high level items via crafting. For example: "All Itani Monks from the Order of Eo must undergo a rite of passage that involves making a pilgrimage, undergoing a series of tests, and then finally, building their own energy focus." Something like that.
=====================================================
Sun 12:09PM: Rascal
I also agree with the idea that the game can benefit from the inclusion of a few raids. Raids are another MMORPG staple and they are great fun. For those who do not know, a raid happens when a group of players attempts to defeat a high-level NPC or MOB boss and his minions. These guys are usually too tough for solo players or even small groups. This encourages teamplay and often leads to the discovery of novel battle tactics. The reward is often a high-level item that is then lottoed to see who in the group gets it. The MOB boss usually only spawns once a day or once every X number of days, or perhaps it can even be triggered by a mission.
=====================================================
Sun 12:52PM: Starfisher
Rascal: See this thread:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/6630
I think it's a start to what you propose, and one that seems to be implementable with the current AI and game structure.
=====================================================
Sun 07:36PM: simondearsly
I like the 'craft' idea in acquireing better ships or weapons.
A random bot could drop a cargo container when killed (or something) which contains a weapon/bettery/ship/some-other-item blueprint. Picking this up trigers a series of missions ie:
"This looks like a blueprint for some kind of energy weapon. The specifications remind you of the standard Guass cannon, but there are some strange looking modifications to the drive assembly.You could take the blue print to Corvus Strong Hold, Odia, rumour has it that the weapon engineers there are very good at prototyping low power energy weapons... for a price"
When you get to Odia and dock, you meet with a shaddy engineer. It turns out the blueprint is for a low energy consumption, high damage Guass Cannon, but he will need some supplies to produce a weapon prototype for you. This sets of a string of missions in which you must find obscure items form stations, bots or even other players. Eventauly, you complete the missions and a new weapon prototype is available for you at that station. From now on, you can take a mission from the station to produce the new weapon, but it requires a fair amount of hunting for parts, though not as much as building the prototype.
What we make things much more interesting would be if players could trade weapons, ships, batteries, weapons, and items from these missions to other players. Players would set their price depending on how long or how hard the had to work to acquire the item in the first place. Even finding the blueprint in the first place would be a very random event, or spawned from another mission. Heck, even accepting the initial mission could spawn a PVP mission for another faction. Someone could be tasked to intercept you on your way to Odia!
Not sure if this kind of thing can be done within the engine, but I sure hope so. This kind of thing would make the current game far more interesting.
=====================================================
Sun 10:27PM: SmallHorse
Seems like an auction house would be nice if some form of crafting were implemented. That way non crafters could sell the parts they find to crafters and crafters could sell stuff they make and whatnot. Although im not even sure how a crafting system would even fit in.
=====================================================
Mon 12:12AM: Rascal
-----------------------------------------------------------------
There is some good stuff showeing up here. I got the impression from previous post that we were working under different definitions for "crafting". Maybe some of these suggestions will be addressed in time for the release.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
A crafting system can take different forms. A "scavenger hunt" would be an example of a quest-based system and would probably be the easiest and quickest one to implement in Vendetta. The player doing the "crafting" would probably not even need a crafting skill. A crafting system such as that employed by EnB, where virtually all vendor and looted items, including ammunition, could be analyzed and built (or rebuilt), would require a considerable revision of the game.
Some players enjoy crafting, while others hate it. Trading will allow crafters to sell their handiwork to those who do not care to hunt down the parts to build an item for themselves. This way crafters will not necessarily have an unfair advantage in equipment over those who only like to fight. It will also create a player market for certain looted or mined goods. Perhaps the trading can occur in bars, making those rooms useful.
=====================================================
Mon 06:45AM: Demonen
Crafting suggestion:
- Pay a station 100.000 credits to hire a lab for one month or whatever.
- Get a blueprint from a killed bot, buy it from another player or hire some scientist to create a "XiteGauss".
- Get the advanced targeting systems, the Xirite Alloy for the casing, the Xithricite for pressing ammo etc.
--!Here's where my idea is different!--
- In station a sort of puzzle appears. If you solve it you get the XiteGauss, if time runs out you can take the upgraded blueprints (20% XiteGauss prototype) with you or hire the lab for another month.
- Maybe I can even decide to go to production with a 90% model,
knowing it's not as good as the 100% model, yet still somewhat better than the original.
- The weapon is like the Gauss, only it takes a Large port, is somewhat faster and more powerful, but needs ammo to operate. The color of the bolt is green instead of blue since the bolt is Xithricite-based.
=====================================================
Wed 08:29PM: Danbetheroy
Sorry back on to crafting.
The idea of crafting does not have to result in uber items.
Imagine a noob equiped with his first ship and basic components, who goes botting for the first time, all the components ores and the like gained from the lower bots should be able to be combined to make the components required if he was to lose his ship, he could look up the components needed to build say the basic battery and if he had the necessary components pay 50% of cost and obtain a new one built from what he had scavenged. As he moves up levels he can build the higher grade batteries which will need parts from higher level bots etc. This would also make botting more diverse and meaningful.
=====================================================
Thu 11:27AM: harvestmouse
Crafting skill could give you the ability to build really good weapons, but when you die, your weapon goes with it, and you'll have to spend a lot of time collecting material (unless you stocked up very well) before you could create another weapon.
(on the side topic of minigames/challenge-- this could apply to crafting and a lot of other things.. say, like piloting a capital ship?
Each member of the crew could have a different task... and the tasks could be like minigames. There could be someone who plays the ammo reload game, someone who plays the targeting homers game, someone who plays the navigating-ship game, someone who plays the repairing game, the engine pressure/energy game...
effectively splitting up tasks among many people; and when you have a great crew, your ship will be more agile, have better defenses and energy than ships with less skilled members.)
=====================================================
End Thread-a-port of crafting comments
i think crafting would be a good idea in the modifying current weapon and ship perspective, and make penalties like taking up more cargo space or maybe adding enough mass to slow the ship down, so people don't just run around and make uber stuff all the time.. and maybe make it very costly to do?
I had an idea for time-based crafting that may help prevent monopolisation and mean that both new and experienced players can produce something worthwhile and marketable.
Time based crafting would mean that everything produced would take a certain amount of time to produce. Players could adjust the time spent making an item to improve its quality, experienced players would get a time bonus where quality items would take less time to produce. Therefore even a inexperienced player would be able to produce marketable goods, but in less volume. It would also limit the amount of raw materials that a player could consume.
Random and Faction factors could also figure in the quality of the resulting item, as well as perhaps consumable 'build enhancing' devices or more permanent items like tools or even workshop space.
I would allow item production to continue while a player is offline - as levelling does in EvE.
Apologies if I'm repeating anything here but theres now a LOT of forum text to get through ;)
Time based crafting would mean that everything produced would take a certain amount of time to produce. Players could adjust the time spent making an item to improve its quality, experienced players would get a time bonus where quality items would take less time to produce. Therefore even a inexperienced player would be able to produce marketable goods, but in less volume. It would also limit the amount of raw materials that a player could consume.
Random and Faction factors could also figure in the quality of the resulting item, as well as perhaps consumable 'build enhancing' devices or more permanent items like tools or even workshop space.
I would allow item production to continue while a player is offline - as levelling does in EvE.
Apologies if I'm repeating anything here but theres now a LOT of forum text to get through ;)