Forums » Suggestions
Player Kill XP Discussion
XP increases from killing players ought to increase. The lvl range at which player kill xp is determined also should change. Something like this maybe:
I'm lvl 4.2 (average of CP, LW and HW levels). I kill the following people:
lvl 0 - -1000xp
lvl 1 - -500xp
lvl 2 - 0xp
lvl 3 - +100xp
lvl 4 - +150xp
lvl 5 - +200xp
lvl 6 - +400xp
lvl 7 - +600xp
lvl 8 - +800xp
lvl 9 - +1000xp
lvl 10 - +1000xp
Etc. After all, if I can get 800xp killing one bot, I should be able to get at least that killing players who are 4 lvls higher than me.
I'm lvl 4.2 (average of CP, LW and HW levels). I kill the following people:
lvl 0 - -1000xp
lvl 1 - -500xp
lvl 2 - 0xp
lvl 3 - +100xp
lvl 4 - +150xp
lvl 5 - +200xp
lvl 6 - +400xp
lvl 7 - +600xp
lvl 8 - +800xp
lvl 9 - +1000xp
lvl 10 - +1000xp
Etc. After all, if I can get 800xp killing one bot, I should be able to get at least that killing players who are 4 lvls higher than me.
I like it.
What prevents exploitation? (ie 1 high level player quickly levels up a lower level by being an easy kill)
One idea:
only give exp for killing a given player once per week (might be an easy thing to reset on patch day).
One more idea:
It would be cool to implement experience for dueling as well if it could be made non-exploitable. Maybe something like a duel mission for a 2 person group where winner of 5 duels gets 75% of the reward and the loser gets 25%. Total reward based off of the players levels.
What prevents exploitation? (ie 1 high level player quickly levels up a lower level by being an easy kill)
One idea:
only give exp for killing a given player once per week (might be an easy thing to reset on patch day).
One more idea:
It would be cool to implement experience for dueling as well if it could be made non-exploitable. Maybe something like a duel mission for a 2 person group where winner of 5 duels gets 75% of the reward and the loser gets 25%. Total reward based off of the players levels.
I don't like the idea that you should ever lose XP for PK. You might not earn any, but I think that PK is just too much a part of the game to punish people that heavily for doing it. Also, I've been in situations where I was being harrassed by lower level players, and not being able to do anything about it really bites.
Just as a suggestion:
800XP * your opponent's level^2 / (your level+1)^2 || 5000XP (which ever is lower)
Some examples:
You're a 1/1/1/1. You kill a 2/2/2/2
XP = 800 * 2^2 / (1+1)^2 = 100 * 4 / 6 = 800
You're a 4/4/4/4. You kill a 6/6/6/6
XP = 800 * 6^2 / (4+1)^2 = 800 * 36 / 25 = 1152
You're a 7/9/6/5. You kill a 3/5/3/5.
XP = 800 * 4^2 / (6.75 + 1)^2 = 800 * 16 / 60.06 = 213
You're a 1/1/1/0. You kill a 7/9/6/5.
XP = 800 * 6.75^2 / (0.75 + 1)^2 = 800 * 45.56 / 3.06 = 11902 > 5000, so 5000XP
"What prevents exploitation?"
Good question. In the long run, maybe you'd have to pay an XP penalty for dying? It wouldn't have to be overly painful, but it should be enough to convince high level players not to jump in buses to help quickly level n00bs. I suggest something like losing 50XP^(your level - 1). Of course, I say this as someone that never died much. People who really like to let it all hang out and take risks might think I'm being a bit harsh.
Alternately, you could lose reputation for dying. Whatever system is used, it needs to make dying somewhat painful without making it so painful that people avoid PvP completely.
Just as a suggestion:
800XP * your opponent's level^2 / (your level+1)^2 || 5000XP (which ever is lower)
Some examples:
You're a 1/1/1/1. You kill a 2/2/2/2
XP = 800 * 2^2 / (1+1)^2 = 100 * 4 / 6 = 800
You're a 4/4/4/4. You kill a 6/6/6/6
XP = 800 * 6^2 / (4+1)^2 = 800 * 36 / 25 = 1152
You're a 7/9/6/5. You kill a 3/5/3/5.
XP = 800 * 4^2 / (6.75 + 1)^2 = 800 * 16 / 60.06 = 213
You're a 1/1/1/0. You kill a 7/9/6/5.
XP = 800 * 6.75^2 / (0.75 + 1)^2 = 800 * 45.56 / 3.06 = 11902 > 5000, so 5000XP
"What prevents exploitation?"
Good question. In the long run, maybe you'd have to pay an XP penalty for dying? It wouldn't have to be overly painful, but it should be enough to convince high level players not to jump in buses to help quickly level n00bs. I suggest something like losing 50XP^(your level - 1). Of course, I say this as someone that never died much. People who really like to let it all hang out and take risks might think I'm being a bit harsh.
Alternately, you could lose reputation for dying. Whatever system is used, it needs to make dying somewhat painful without making it so painful that people avoid PvP completely.
"Good question. In the long run, maybe you'd have to pay an XP penalty for dying? It wouldn't have to be overly painful, but it should be enough to convince high level players not to jump in buses to help quickly level n00bs. I suggest something like losing 50XP^(your level - 1). Of course, I say this as someone that never died much. People who really like to let it all hang out and take risks might think I'm being a bit harsh.
Alternately, you could lose reputation for dying. Whatever system is used, it needs to make dying somewhat painful without making it so painful that people avoid PvP completely." - Celebrim
One of my most hated things about EverQuest was that you could loose all your hard earned experience. In VO the loss of xp for killing a lower level player in my eyes is just fine, but loosing xp from dieing in a combat situation is abserd. If you want to make the penalties for dieing worse then increase the amount of money that you have to spend to get your ship back, maybe double or triple the price you paid, and you HAVE to buy your ship back IF you have the money available, otherwise you are put into a bus. Would put some of that money that eveyone has to good use.
Alternately, you could lose reputation for dying. Whatever system is used, it needs to make dying somewhat painful without making it so painful that people avoid PvP completely." - Celebrim
One of my most hated things about EverQuest was that you could loose all your hard earned experience. In VO the loss of xp for killing a lower level player in my eyes is just fine, but loosing xp from dieing in a combat situation is abserd. If you want to make the penalties for dieing worse then increase the amount of money that you have to spend to get your ship back, maybe double or triple the price you paid, and you HAVE to buy your ship back IF you have the money available, otherwise you are put into a bus. Would put some of that money that eveyone has to good use.
"One of my most hated things about EverQuest was that you could loose all your hard earned experience."
As a DM, I fully understand. One thing you learn after DMing for 20 years or so is that player's hate having thier characters 'maimed' more than they hate having thier characters die.
But my personal preference remains the opposite of yours. If I die, its reasonable that I pay some price for it. Paying XP is the classic RP solution for balancing being raised from the dead.
And ultimately, we aren't talking about a big penalty. A '4th' level player would only lose 450XP. That's a tiny fraction of his total XP, and is less than what you'd get for killing some bots. It's certainly less than what you'd lose for killing a n00b who catches you 'napping' and gets creamed by a rocket spread before you realize how green your ambusher is.
Assuming the economy works, your solution of making it cost more money is almost exactly the same as an XP loss. In both cases, you are increasing the time required playing the game to recover from your loss.
But I fully understand why one is psychologically more painful than the other, and I'm certainly not perfectly happy with any of my proposed solutions.
As a DM, I fully understand. One thing you learn after DMing for 20 years or so is that player's hate having thier characters 'maimed' more than they hate having thier characters die.
But my personal preference remains the opposite of yours. If I die, its reasonable that I pay some price for it. Paying XP is the classic RP solution for balancing being raised from the dead.
And ultimately, we aren't talking about a big penalty. A '4th' level player would only lose 450XP. That's a tiny fraction of his total XP, and is less than what you'd get for killing some bots. It's certainly less than what you'd lose for killing a n00b who catches you 'napping' and gets creamed by a rocket spread before you realize how green your ambusher is.
Assuming the economy works, your solution of making it cost more money is almost exactly the same as an XP loss. In both cases, you are increasing the time required playing the game to recover from your loss.
But I fully understand why one is psychologically more painful than the other, and I'm certainly not perfectly happy with any of my proposed solutions.
I'm against losing XP for dying. It's hard enough to GAIN experience (especially for newbies) that losing it would eventually be too much of a pain to want to deal with anymore. Especially in a game that promotes PvP. Lots of us go for long periods of time without botting to participate in CtC. This ultimately results in lots of deaths and lots of XP lost without much regained.
I like Roguelazer's gaining exp plan, although I'd like to explicitly suggest that the scale change as your average levels change (I assume that Roguelazer meant that the scale adjusts due to levels, but he never states it, so I can't be sure). For each level above yours, you receive an increasing amount of experience, as per his chart. For all levels below yours, you lose no exp, but you don't gain any experience. The exceptions are that if you are above an average of level 4, you lose experience for killing players of avg lvl 0 and avg lvl 1. If you are below that, you lose nothing, but you're probably still an inexperienced player, so it would be PvP for you, and not griefing.
I like Roguelazer's gaining exp plan, although I'd like to explicitly suggest that the scale change as your average levels change (I assume that Roguelazer meant that the scale adjusts due to levels, but he never states it, so I can't be sure). For each level above yours, you receive an increasing amount of experience, as per his chart. For all levels below yours, you lose no exp, but you don't gain any experience. The exceptions are that if you are above an average of level 4, you lose experience for killing players of avg lvl 0 and avg lvl 1. If you are below that, you lose nothing, but you're probably still an inexperienced player, so it would be PvP for you, and not griefing.
You could do "experince debt" like CoH. When you die you get debt which is payed off as you play. Half is normal Xp half is debt reduction. Posssibly have debt timeout to help the players who are on once or twice a week.
My brother has been giving CoH very good reviews. The XP debt system sounds like a good way to get around the pyschological barrier of 'losing XP', but I can't think of a good explaination for it. I can imagine that resurrected selves would lose knowledge compared to the original, but why would your resurrected selves have a hard time learning?
Resurrection sickness of course. It takes a bit of time for the newly grown synapsis to warm up. Like the way you're not supposed to drive a car too hard before the engine is broke in.
This game still hasn't explained how chars survive exploding.
Personally, I think "resurrection" or anything like that goes against the background and ambience.
Escape pods, though...
Personally, I think "resurrection" or anything like that goes against the background and ambience.
Escape pods, though...
Cloning technology is one possibility. Escape pods raise more questions than they actually answer.
My lame justification on how we survive explosions is nation specific variations on the same theme: we're not really in the ship, but are controlling it remotely.
Itani are in a meditative state in their home station.
Serco are jacked in to a neural interface.
UIT have a "trade secret" that they refuse to tell me.
Itani are in a meditative state in their home station.
Serco are jacked in to a neural interface.
UIT have a "trade secret" that they refuse to tell me.
The escape pods idea ties into something else I was discussing with some people...
Namely, the idea that any bounties put on a player came out of that player's pocket, so they couldn't let someone kill them and split the money.
The idea I had was that, well, we know there's got to me a lot of traffic not actually represented in the game. The population of the VO universe isn't just 500 or so people. So, when you die, it's assumed you eject in an escape pod and wait around for some friendly ship to give you a lift back home... and in the case of a bountied player, it's the local constabulary who does this, not incidentally extracting the bounty price at gunpoint before dropping you off.
Namely, the idea that any bounties put on a player came out of that player's pocket, so they couldn't let someone kill them and split the money.
The idea I had was that, well, we know there's got to me a lot of traffic not actually represented in the game. The population of the VO universe isn't just 500 or so people. So, when you die, it's assumed you eject in an escape pod and wait around for some friendly ship to give you a lift back home... and in the case of a bountied player, it's the local constabulary who does this, not incidentally extracting the bounty price at gunpoint before dropping you off.
excellent idea. Killing one human opponent is worth 100 dumb drones in my opinion. You should be rewarded accordingly. You should really hit jackpot if you manage to down a ranking pilot. Those are far-inbetween events and the ultimate challenge.
As for exploitation. That had never occurred to me before. The formula which decreses the XP gained the more frequently you kill the same pilot in a set amount of time is an excellent idea. I mean lets face it. If scoring monitors that you have killed "ultrapwningpilot" 10 times in the last few minutes, alarm bells should ring. You should get rewarded for the kill, but only a little bit for subsequent kills thereafter. Lets face it: if you are repeatedly owning somebody, you are either exploiting, bullying, or clearly versing an inferior opponent. You should not repeatedly gain great rewards from it.
As for exploitation. That had never occurred to me before. The formula which decreses the XP gained the more frequently you kill the same pilot in a set amount of time is an excellent idea. I mean lets face it. If scoring monitors that you have killed "ultrapwningpilot" 10 times in the last few minutes, alarm bells should ring. You should get rewarded for the kill, but only a little bit for subsequent kills thereafter. Lets face it: if you are repeatedly owning somebody, you are either exploiting, bullying, or clearly versing an inferior opponent. You should not repeatedly gain great rewards from it.
As for death. Thats always a difficult concept in MMORPGs.
Resurrection is more at home in the fantasy/sorcery world. Where your body leaves behind a type of spirit which can be brought back in to the living world. Its kind of hard to weave it in to the science fiction genre. "Oh no we just lost Sgt. Meyerson. He's spread all over a sector somewhere. Quick! bring in the master druid and get him to cast a resurrection spell!" A medevil druid in a lush gown rides in on a dragon.. Ummm, no that doesnt work for me.
Cloning makes me queasy. Its like, wow my character is dead! And who is this freshly baked twin? I want my character back.. Its a real mind f**k. I always feel uneasy with the concept of being provided with a test tube brewed doppleganger which is supposed to replace my beloved avatar. Of whom has had so many adventures and memories. He's gone now, forever. And my friends have to get used to this genetic atrosity which is taking his place.
Ejection pods. Now we are talking. Fits in with the science fiction world and is a neat way of explaining how you can still be alive and well after having your ship destroyed. What kind of penalty could be introduced from an ejection event? Time, i guess. A count down timer which either prevents your pilot from flying at all (explained by pilot rescue). Or trauma. The traumatic event of combat-near-death experience and a violent ejection could be a cover story for why your pilot has to remain at station for a period of time, or has reduced functionality (reduced to light duties). Could only be a few minutes duration. You may or may not be allowed to fly. If you are allowed to fly, its in a lesser ship or you cannot fire weapons. Anybody who kills you gets no XP, because all races do not condone killing recovering trauma victims. You are protected under some kind of rule of war like the Geneva convention. While recovering, you are more or less still a patient and its an agreement not to destroy eachother's medical facilities and patients. Ofcourse, i wouldnt put that past a Serco... : )
This idea embraces both a "dying" penalty and prevents people from exploiting (killing you over and over in rapid succession for XP harvesting)
Resurrection is more at home in the fantasy/sorcery world. Where your body leaves behind a type of spirit which can be brought back in to the living world. Its kind of hard to weave it in to the science fiction genre. "Oh no we just lost Sgt. Meyerson. He's spread all over a sector somewhere. Quick! bring in the master druid and get him to cast a resurrection spell!" A medevil druid in a lush gown rides in on a dragon.. Ummm, no that doesnt work for me.
Cloning makes me queasy. Its like, wow my character is dead! And who is this freshly baked twin? I want my character back.. Its a real mind f**k. I always feel uneasy with the concept of being provided with a test tube brewed doppleganger which is supposed to replace my beloved avatar. Of whom has had so many adventures and memories. He's gone now, forever. And my friends have to get used to this genetic atrosity which is taking his place.
Ejection pods. Now we are talking. Fits in with the science fiction world and is a neat way of explaining how you can still be alive and well after having your ship destroyed. What kind of penalty could be introduced from an ejection event? Time, i guess. A count down timer which either prevents your pilot from flying at all (explained by pilot rescue). Or trauma. The traumatic event of combat-near-death experience and a violent ejection could be a cover story for why your pilot has to remain at station for a period of time, or has reduced functionality (reduced to light duties). Could only be a few minutes duration. You may or may not be allowed to fly. If you are allowed to fly, its in a lesser ship or you cannot fire weapons. Anybody who kills you gets no XP, because all races do not condone killing recovering trauma victims. You are protected under some kind of rule of war like the Geneva convention. While recovering, you are more or less still a patient and its an agreement not to destroy eachother's medical facilities and patients. Ofcourse, i wouldnt put that past a Serco... : )
This idea embraces both a "dying" penalty and prevents people from exploiting (killing you over and over in rapid succession for XP harvesting)
Well said.
*humm*
or for that matter, a localized mental copy. Backups, restored whenever you redock with your home station.
Ie.
Standing: is others view on you. Not lost/changed.
Credits: Are virtually stored somewhere as data in a net. Not lost/changed.
Skills: Are things you have learned, lost until last backup.
Frequent backups would put you down into a place called "home" often, or if you are the careful type, fly you around and set home ever so often.
or for that matter, a localized mental copy. Backups, restored whenever you redock with your home station.
Ie.
Standing: is others view on you. Not lost/changed.
Credits: Are virtually stored somewhere as data in a net. Not lost/changed.
Skills: Are things you have learned, lost until last backup.
Frequent backups would put you down into a place called "home" often, or if you are the careful type, fly you around and set home ever so often.
"...or for that matter, a localized mental copy. Backups, restored whenever you redock with your home station."
That was my understanding of how things work. They made a clone, then gave it your memories up until your most recent backup. To avoid psychological trauma, they probably added some sort of standard death memory. From the clones perspective, there was mental continuity. He wakes up from sleep. He thinks he is (for lack of a better word) himself, and the last thing he remembers doing was dying.
BTW, if some of you remember my story 'The Cold Front', ultimately that was what the story was going to be about.
That was my understanding of how things work. They made a clone, then gave it your memories up until your most recent backup. To avoid psychological trauma, they probably added some sort of standard death memory. From the clones perspective, there was mental continuity. He wakes up from sleep. He thinks he is (for lack of a better word) himself, and the last thing he remembers doing was dying.
BTW, if some of you remember my story 'The Cold Front', ultimately that was what the story was going to be about.
... Thus completely ignoring what TCoop said, and what I agree with.
Clone concepts are just bad, period.
The clone is just that - it's a copy of you, not the real you.
While some of you may not have a problem with that, the existentialists in the crowd are going to be going, "Well, I'm not so sure about that..." because it basically DESTROYS character continuity for people who want to actually identify with their character. Suddenly they're playing a character that's not them, just a copy. Doesn't appeal to me either.
By the clone token, the idea that "We can just go to the pound and get another puppy" is perfectly valid; which, as most of you probably realize, is not the case.
Clone concepts are just bad, period.
The clone is just that - it's a copy of you, not the real you.
While some of you may not have a problem with that, the existentialists in the crowd are going to be going, "Well, I'm not so sure about that..." because it basically DESTROYS character continuity for people who want to actually identify with their character. Suddenly they're playing a character that's not them, just a copy. Doesn't appeal to me either.
By the clone token, the idea that "We can just go to the pound and get another puppy" is perfectly valid; which, as most of you probably realize, is not the case.
On PvP XP: you should get more XPs for downing better opponents, and little or none for lesser foes. I've seen some games where a PvP "level limit" is active: You can only attack or be attacked by people a certain number of levels both above and below yours. This stops the little guys from bugging bigger guys, and the bigger guys from picking on the newbies. Within your kill "window", those above you would render excellent XP if you manage to kill them while those below give far less, the middle point, of course, being guys at your own level. If we were to take Combat License as level, maybe three Licenses above and three below would be a good window. This system, of course, would be no good for CTC and stuff (imagine being unalbe to blast away at the fleeing cargo-carrier because he's outside your kill window...), but maybe some intelligent twist on it may be the solution.
As for dying, it is always a hard thing to "recreate" in space sims. In EnB you didn't actually die; rather, your ship got crippled. You had then two choices: wait for someone to come by and tow you to a station (or repair you), or have reclaimers from the last station you visited tow you back at a price, which was in the form of the XP debt system as described for CoH. Though it was somewhat odd that the enemy would leave you alone once your ship systems were out, it was a way around the scape pod/cloning conundrum. Your pilot simply never died.
The last alternative to this would be the Star Trek Evac theory: each pilot wears an emergency teleport rig when in space. A serious hull breach immediately teleports the pilot back to his station so he escapes unscathed, but loses his ship and everything in it.
As for dying, it is always a hard thing to "recreate" in space sims. In EnB you didn't actually die; rather, your ship got crippled. You had then two choices: wait for someone to come by and tow you to a station (or repair you), or have reclaimers from the last station you visited tow you back at a price, which was in the form of the XP debt system as described for CoH. Though it was somewhat odd that the enemy would leave you alone once your ship systems were out, it was a way around the scape pod/cloning conundrum. Your pilot simply never died.
The last alternative to this would be the Star Trek Evac theory: each pilot wears an emergency teleport rig when in space. A serious hull breach immediately teleports the pilot back to his station so he escapes unscathed, but loses his ship and everything in it.