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I’m getting really tired of explaining over and over again to people why we can’t and shouldn’t have planets. It’s tiresome and frustrating, because it involves fighting against people’s common sense on so many different levels. Basically, it boils down to the fact that everyone in the conversation lives on a planet and therefore assumes that they are important.
On the other hand, I’m very sympathetic with at least some of the goals of the ‘planet’ crowd, namely a sense of grandeur and realism. In fact, one of my earliest posts was a suggestion for larger asteroids that could simulate something on the scale of a small moon. But even bigger asteroids have as it turns out, lots of implementation issues if they are to look good.
So, here’s my challenge to the Vendetta community. Dozens of you say you want planets. I’m tired of telling you how you don’t really understand what’s at stake. So, prove me wrong. If you want planets, DO IT.
In the past the fan community has attempted a couple of art projects. Most of them didn’t get off the ground because they attempted something too ambitious. It’s unrealistic to think that a fan community of this size has artists capable of producing good looking professional quality ship models in their spare time.
But terrain is another matter entirely. Modeling rocks in an interesting fashion is comparatively easy. Making rocks is grunt work that high skill experienced artists are somewhat wasting their time doing. But, it has a really profound impact on the quality of the game. I think it is entirely possible that in the fan community there is enough talent to provide new kinds of asteroids and new kinds of rock textures to enliven the game. So, I’m challenging all you would be 3D artists out there. I’m announcing the (currently) unofficial Slarti Bartfast Honorary Vendetta Fan World Building Project (SBHVFWBP). The primary goal of the project is to create large terrain features for the Vendetta game which while not strictly speaking realistic will have sufficient verisimilitude that people without a lot of training in astronomy will be convinced that they are ‘realistic’. To do this, we will create a series of increasingly large ‘world tools’ which can be used to greatly increase variety of sectors in the game.
The secondary goal of this project is that failing to create usable models, people involved with the project will at least gain a good understanding of the difficulties involved in creating planets and thereafter will shut up about them.
The project will have multiple increasingly ambitious stages.
Stage I: Cruithne – 3km diameter ‘world toolset’
The first stage of the project is intended only to be a warm up. Members of the project will submit designs for a 3km diameter asteroid world. The world will be roughly spherical in overall plan (which is highly unrealistic for anything under about 100km diameter, but most people don’t know that), but will be decorated with appropriate ridge and fissure systems and impact craters. Larger indentations are possible, but the overall plan of the ‘world’ should be much rounder and more regular than typical asteroids in vendetta to set the world apart from those features in something other than size. Like all the worlds in the project, the primary skin for the world will be extremely simple and clay like and capable of simulating the appearance of our own moon. Other skins may be submitted with the project as desired. Care should be taken to keep the memory taken up by the textures to a minimum.
The successful designer of Cruithne will cleverly divide the single world into at least 8 pieces along fault lines in such a way that the developers may choose to do any of the following with the building blocks:
a) Position them such that Cruithne appears to be a nearly spherical solid world.
b) Separate them by a gap so that Cruithne appears to be a shattered world with complex boundaries along the fracture.
c) Replace one or more pieces with similarly shaped newly created pieces so as to create 3km worlds of diverse appearance.
d) Use individual pieces by themselves as individual asteroids.
Stage II: Toutatis – 5km diameter ‘world toolset’
Having mastered stage one of the project, the world building team will set its sights on a far more ambitious project. Toutatis will be a 5km spherical asteroid, with a crust 500 meters thick. The exterior of Toutatis is to be shaped and textured much as Cruithne, but the features should again be relatively smaller and more regularly distributed to heighten the since of size. The interior surface should be more regular. The interior and exterior should be connected by no less than 5 irregularly spaced tunnels through the crust. These tunnels need not be perfectly straight but should not meander too much.
Together with a Toutatis plan, you must submit a set of straight, curved, and branching ‘tunnel’ pieces which are designed so that they can fit end to end like the sections of a pipe. These tunnel pieces should be irregular enough that they could be interpreted as either manmade or natural features. You must submit Toutatis with a sample network of tunnels which connect by labyrinthian paths the five holes in the crust so that anyone entering the tunnel complex would have the perception of being within a cavern complex of a solid asteroid.
Without the tunnel complex, Toutatis can serve as the hollowed out living space of a ‘space station’ city.
Stage III: Deimos – 10km diameter ‘world toolset’
Stage three will expand the Cruithne project to a much larger world. Deimos will be a 10km world manufactured in several pieces which are intended to serve only as pieces of a large world. It is therefore unnecessary that the pieces fulfill requirements ‘b’ and ‘d’ of the Cruithne project. Instead, the successful Deimos designer will pay close attention to the lessons learned from building smaller worlds to create realistic looking textures and world pieces which make the most optimal use of computer memory in terms of textures and polygon count. The judging criteria for the successful Deimos project is therefore not its complexity, but its elegance.
Stage IV: Larissa – 10km+ diameter ‘world toolset’
Stage four will expand on the lessons learned from earlier stages to implement a system of building necrotic worlds up to the very limit of modern computing power. Larissa will not be a design for a single world, but general plan for building worlds of very large size. The basic world plan will be assumed to be a spheroid composed of regular distributed triangular planes of up to several hundred meters across. The number of facets chosen for Larissa will be determined by what earlier projects deemed practical for displaying. The actual world toolset will consist of several dozen well crafted surface features, such as hills, mounds, protrusions, shallow fissure networks, ridges, impact craters, ice flows and so forth which can be scaled, rotated and either embedded in or placed on the surface of Larissa in such a way that they look semi-realistic on ‘spheres’ of a wide range of sizes.
If someone out there can build ‘Larissa’ and her younger sisters – which I seriously doubt – then I’ll take them seriously in there cries about how we need ‘planets’. And heck, maybe even the Devs will be impressed. If someone thinks they can do the above and seems serious enough about it, maybe I'll get serious about finding some 3D freeware and giving my own shot at it. (I'm pretty good with AutoCAD.)
On the other hand, I’m very sympathetic with at least some of the goals of the ‘planet’ crowd, namely a sense of grandeur and realism. In fact, one of my earliest posts was a suggestion for larger asteroids that could simulate something on the scale of a small moon. But even bigger asteroids have as it turns out, lots of implementation issues if they are to look good.
So, here’s my challenge to the Vendetta community. Dozens of you say you want planets. I’m tired of telling you how you don’t really understand what’s at stake. So, prove me wrong. If you want planets, DO IT.
In the past the fan community has attempted a couple of art projects. Most of them didn’t get off the ground because they attempted something too ambitious. It’s unrealistic to think that a fan community of this size has artists capable of producing good looking professional quality ship models in their spare time.
But terrain is another matter entirely. Modeling rocks in an interesting fashion is comparatively easy. Making rocks is grunt work that high skill experienced artists are somewhat wasting their time doing. But, it has a really profound impact on the quality of the game. I think it is entirely possible that in the fan community there is enough talent to provide new kinds of asteroids and new kinds of rock textures to enliven the game. So, I’m challenging all you would be 3D artists out there. I’m announcing the (currently) unofficial Slarti Bartfast Honorary Vendetta Fan World Building Project (SBHVFWBP). The primary goal of the project is to create large terrain features for the Vendetta game which while not strictly speaking realistic will have sufficient verisimilitude that people without a lot of training in astronomy will be convinced that they are ‘realistic’. To do this, we will create a series of increasingly large ‘world tools’ which can be used to greatly increase variety of sectors in the game.
The secondary goal of this project is that failing to create usable models, people involved with the project will at least gain a good understanding of the difficulties involved in creating planets and thereafter will shut up about them.
The project will have multiple increasingly ambitious stages.
Stage I: Cruithne – 3km diameter ‘world toolset’
The first stage of the project is intended only to be a warm up. Members of the project will submit designs for a 3km diameter asteroid world. The world will be roughly spherical in overall plan (which is highly unrealistic for anything under about 100km diameter, but most people don’t know that), but will be decorated with appropriate ridge and fissure systems and impact craters. Larger indentations are possible, but the overall plan of the ‘world’ should be much rounder and more regular than typical asteroids in vendetta to set the world apart from those features in something other than size. Like all the worlds in the project, the primary skin for the world will be extremely simple and clay like and capable of simulating the appearance of our own moon. Other skins may be submitted with the project as desired. Care should be taken to keep the memory taken up by the textures to a minimum.
The successful designer of Cruithne will cleverly divide the single world into at least 8 pieces along fault lines in such a way that the developers may choose to do any of the following with the building blocks:
a) Position them such that Cruithne appears to be a nearly spherical solid world.
b) Separate them by a gap so that Cruithne appears to be a shattered world with complex boundaries along the fracture.
c) Replace one or more pieces with similarly shaped newly created pieces so as to create 3km worlds of diverse appearance.
d) Use individual pieces by themselves as individual asteroids.
Stage II: Toutatis – 5km diameter ‘world toolset’
Having mastered stage one of the project, the world building team will set its sights on a far more ambitious project. Toutatis will be a 5km spherical asteroid, with a crust 500 meters thick. The exterior of Toutatis is to be shaped and textured much as Cruithne, but the features should again be relatively smaller and more regularly distributed to heighten the since of size. The interior surface should be more regular. The interior and exterior should be connected by no less than 5 irregularly spaced tunnels through the crust. These tunnels need not be perfectly straight but should not meander too much.
Together with a Toutatis plan, you must submit a set of straight, curved, and branching ‘tunnel’ pieces which are designed so that they can fit end to end like the sections of a pipe. These tunnel pieces should be irregular enough that they could be interpreted as either manmade or natural features. You must submit Toutatis with a sample network of tunnels which connect by labyrinthian paths the five holes in the crust so that anyone entering the tunnel complex would have the perception of being within a cavern complex of a solid asteroid.
Without the tunnel complex, Toutatis can serve as the hollowed out living space of a ‘space station’ city.
Stage III: Deimos – 10km diameter ‘world toolset’
Stage three will expand the Cruithne project to a much larger world. Deimos will be a 10km world manufactured in several pieces which are intended to serve only as pieces of a large world. It is therefore unnecessary that the pieces fulfill requirements ‘b’ and ‘d’ of the Cruithne project. Instead, the successful Deimos designer will pay close attention to the lessons learned from building smaller worlds to create realistic looking textures and world pieces which make the most optimal use of computer memory in terms of textures and polygon count. The judging criteria for the successful Deimos project is therefore not its complexity, but its elegance.
Stage IV: Larissa – 10km+ diameter ‘world toolset’
Stage four will expand on the lessons learned from earlier stages to implement a system of building necrotic worlds up to the very limit of modern computing power. Larissa will not be a design for a single world, but general plan for building worlds of very large size. The basic world plan will be assumed to be a spheroid composed of regular distributed triangular planes of up to several hundred meters across. The number of facets chosen for Larissa will be determined by what earlier projects deemed practical for displaying. The actual world toolset will consist of several dozen well crafted surface features, such as hills, mounds, protrusions, shallow fissure networks, ridges, impact craters, ice flows and so forth which can be scaled, rotated and either embedded in or placed on the surface of Larissa in such a way that they look semi-realistic on ‘spheres’ of a wide range of sizes.
If someone out there can build ‘Larissa’ and her younger sisters – which I seriously doubt – then I’ll take them seriously in there cries about how we need ‘planets’. And heck, maybe even the Devs will be impressed. If someone thinks they can do the above and seems serious enough about it, maybe I'll get serious about finding some 3D freeware and giving my own shot at it. (I'm pretty good with AutoCAD.)
Heh.... Slarti Bartfast... I told you it wasn't important.
(Which as it turns out is how I feel on this issue... would be kinda nice, but not important).
(Which as it turns out is how I feel on this issue... would be kinda nice, but not important).
Why not just call it the Magrathea Project?
Seriously though, Planet's are a little unrealistic, but if someone can build them, more power to them. Personally I find that planets in 3D space games to be overwhelmingly gigantic. For an example, try Vegastrike or Oolite.
BTW scale reminder, To imagine an earth-sized planet in VO, take an average size asteroid, and put 6000 of them end on end, that's just the diameter.
Seriously though, Planet's are a little unrealistic, but if someone can build them, more power to them. Personally I find that planets in 3D space games to be overwhelmingly gigantic. For an example, try Vegastrike or Oolite.
BTW scale reminder, To imagine an earth-sized planet in VO, take an average size asteroid, and put 6000 of them end on end, that's just the diameter.
i'll do it if you pay me. $10/month sounds about right.
"Why not just call it the Magrathea Project?"
Because that would be too logical.
Because that would be too logical.
*cheerful* I've always wanted to mate some of those huge cracked-asteroids with a racetrack or 2 so I could live in a little roid city.
Seems to me like the purpose of this thread was less to create a planet set and more to overwhelm the "WE NEED PLANETS!!11!!one!!" crowd with the sheer magnitude of everything that involves.
Damn you Celebrim and your unrelenting logic!
Damn you Celebrim and your unrelenting logic!
...While it'd be cool to do something like skim the surface of a planet or something, it really ain't worth it. Not to mention that we all already putz around on a mudball, why would we want to putz around on one in-game?
I think lowguppy was on to something in this post:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/7800#91846
The planets need to play some part in the game, but it could be as simple as menu-based content. I wouldn't be opposed to having an option in the orbital stations to descend to the planet (space elevator?) and conduct commerce there, etc.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/7800#91846
The planets need to play some part in the game, but it could be as simple as menu-based content. I wouldn't be opposed to having an option in the orbital stations to descend to the planet (space elevator?) and conduct commerce there, etc.
Psssst... Slartibartfast is one word... :P
What, no one in the fan communitee is willing to contribute some time and effort in order to get even miniature itty bitty tiny 'planets' into the game?
I'm shocked I tell you... shocked. Why, I had been of the impression that adding full scale planets into the game in a manner that would actually work was something that was trivial. Who would imagine that the fan community would be stymied by a tiny little idea for a project like building 1/1000th scale planets that have no atmophere or gravity.
I'm shocked I tell you... shocked. Why, I had been of the impression that adding full scale planets into the game in a manner that would actually work was something that was trivial. Who would imagine that the fan community would be stymied by a tiny little idea for a project like building 1/1000th scale planets that have no atmophere or gravity.
I hope you have a link to this saved for future spates of "omgdudesmakeplanets" posts.
I WILL MAKE A "CRUITHNE" LARGE ASTEROID.
Celebrim, let me know how you want the file (DXF, 3DS, what have you) How many polygons, how much detail on the bump maps, etc. I will make "something" and get it over to you. To tweak these "omgdudesmakeplanets" people I will also keep track of my time spent doing so, to give them an idea of what creating a full planet would be like. (I would ballpark estimate a year of full time work to create a full-scale planet model, not to mention the in-game performance nightmares that such a massive mapping job would create.)
I am available to meet in Milwaukee area with Guild Software if necessary.
Yes, I am serious. Yes, I am a professional designer. I have additional resources with people that do exactly this thing all day long for various companies. Email me out-of-game or msg me in-game to get the ball.. er.. asteroid.. rolling!
I will even put in a glowing blue circle half-buried in the surface of Cruithne if you like. Heh.
Celebrim, let me know how you want the file (DXF, 3DS, what have you) How many polygons, how much detail on the bump maps, etc. I will make "something" and get it over to you. To tweak these "omgdudesmakeplanets" people I will also keep track of my time spent doing so, to give them an idea of what creating a full planet would be like. (I would ballpark estimate a year of full time work to create a full-scale planet model, not to mention the in-game performance nightmares that such a massive mapping job would create.)
I am available to meet in Milwaukee area with Guild Software if necessary.
Yes, I am serious. Yes, I am a professional designer. I have additional resources with people that do exactly this thing all day long for various companies. Email me out-of-game or msg me in-game to get the ball.. er.. asteroid.. rolling!
I will even put in a glowing blue circle half-buried in the surface of Cruithne if you like. Heh.
Back away from the pentagram, you foul dead thread raiser!
Seriously, this was supposed to die. Celebrim put forward this challenge to convince people making planets was a waste of time. There's no need to actually demonstrate it.
Seriously, this was supposed to die. Celebrim put forward this challenge to convince people making planets was a waste of time. There's no need to actually demonstrate it.
Fine.
So I understand the world wouldn't expand in scale etc. And there are no plans and technical tools and will to do it.
But 3km diameter asteroid sounds great.
Anyway this is your choice. But for me flying and shooting bots and avoiding pirates, ion storms and feeling really alone in space is not the hmmm... thing I expect from the such complex MMORPG. But keep advancing the game. I think you've done great work so far. I really do.
Good Job.
So I understand the world wouldn't expand in scale etc. And there are no plans and technical tools and will to do it.
But 3km diameter asteroid sounds great.
Anyway this is your choice. But for me flying and shooting bots and avoiding pirates, ion storms and feeling really alone in space is not the hmmm... thing I expect from the such complex MMORPG. But keep advancing the game. I think you've done great work so far. I really do.
Good Job.
/me backs slowly away from the Pentagram and lays the issue to rest.
But I will still try to do something & send it off because I made a commitment to do so. Basically the devs replied to my query with: "Knock yourself out."
Don't expect anything in-game unless someone from Guild software makes an announcement.
But I will still try to do something & send it off because I made a commitment to do so. Basically the devs replied to my query with: "Knock yourself out."
Don't expect anything in-game unless someone from Guild software makes an announcement.
Re: LeberMac
Actually, I sympathize with you on this one, since you merely responded to a challenge that Celebrim issued. If Celebrim hadn't been expecting a serious response, then he shouldn't have issued the challenge in the first place.
Personally, I hate people who issue challenges without being serious about them. If you're going to make a challenge in the first place, Celebrim, at least have the guts to be serious about it. Otherwise, you're just being a coward.
Celebrim, it's quite intriguing that you were the one who issued the challenge, and taunted people when they weren't serious in replying, yet as soon as a serious responder arrived, you strangely became silent.
Heck, I'm joining LeberMac on this one, just to make a point about being serious about issuing challenges. LeberMac, if you need somebody to help you out, just ask me. I really wasn't interested in building planets until I saw this topic, but since you're the underdog here, I'll happily help you out.
LeberMac, please *don't* succumb to the pressure. *Don't* "back away from the Pentagram." If you really feel like responding to a formally issued challenge, by all means, do so; if they don't like your response, then they shouldn't have issued the challenge in the first place. Celebrim was the one who wrote "If you want planets, DO IT." People need to be taught to take responsibility for what they say (and write). So: DO IT!!! If I were you, heck, I definitely WOULD, even if it were just to prove an (important) point!
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
Actually, I sympathize with you on this one, since you merely responded to a challenge that Celebrim issued. If Celebrim hadn't been expecting a serious response, then he shouldn't have issued the challenge in the first place.
Personally, I hate people who issue challenges without being serious about them. If you're going to make a challenge in the first place, Celebrim, at least have the guts to be serious about it. Otherwise, you're just being a coward.
Celebrim, it's quite intriguing that you were the one who issued the challenge, and taunted people when they weren't serious in replying, yet as soon as a serious responder arrived, you strangely became silent.
Heck, I'm joining LeberMac on this one, just to make a point about being serious about issuing challenges. LeberMac, if you need somebody to help you out, just ask me. I really wasn't interested in building planets until I saw this topic, but since you're the underdog here, I'll happily help you out.
LeberMac, please *don't* succumb to the pressure. *Don't* "back away from the Pentagram." If you really feel like responding to a formally issued challenge, by all means, do so; if they don't like your response, then they shouldn't have issued the challenge in the first place. Celebrim was the one who wrote "If you want planets, DO IT." People need to be taught to take responsibility for what they say (and write). So: DO IT!!! If I were you, heck, I definitely WOULD, even if it were just to prove an (important) point!
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
uhh, celebrim posted this months and months ago. he hasnt become strangely silent, he's been more or less silent for a while now.
the pentegram was a joke about ressurecting an old thread deku.
the pentegram was a joke about ressurecting an old thread deku.
Uhh, then why don't you DO IT!!, Dekudekuplex?
DekuDekuplex,
I humbly suggest either refraining from personal attacks or, if you must attack, invest in the study of irony and subtlety.
Now, if I may be so audacious as to speak for Celebrim, there are two fundamental problems with representing planet-sized bodies in the game. One: their construction. This is not as simple as it seems, and Celebrim was trying to illumate that by challenging the "omg we ned teh planets!!!1!" crowd to try building one themselves. The prompt death of the thread proved his point.
LeberMac presently offers to have a go at it. He is of course welcome to take this on as a past-time, but no matter what happens there will still be problem #2: rendering ultra-large bodies in the game in a way that does not crash FPS. So even if LeberMac succeeds (and that would be a wonderful achievement), there are still significant rendering problems to be overcome and so we would probably not see Cruithne making an appearance any time soon.
I could be wrong about this. The rendering issues might be solved by the time LeberMac produces a worldlet. But my guess is they will not be solved -- there are too many other, more important gameplay issues to be worked on, and tellingly I don't see anything in the In Progress about reworking WGAF.
No amount of name-calling or hinting in-game that the developers are lazy (which is a real hoot) will change this fact, DekuDekuplex.
I humbly suggest either refraining from personal attacks or, if you must attack, invest in the study of irony and subtlety.
Now, if I may be so audacious as to speak for Celebrim, there are two fundamental problems with representing planet-sized bodies in the game. One: their construction. This is not as simple as it seems, and Celebrim was trying to illumate that by challenging the "omg we ned teh planets!!!1!" crowd to try building one themselves. The prompt death of the thread proved his point.
LeberMac presently offers to have a go at it. He is of course welcome to take this on as a past-time, but no matter what happens there will still be problem #2: rendering ultra-large bodies in the game in a way that does not crash FPS. So even if LeberMac succeeds (and that would be a wonderful achievement), there are still significant rendering problems to be overcome and so we would probably not see Cruithne making an appearance any time soon.
I could be wrong about this. The rendering issues might be solved by the time LeberMac produces a worldlet. But my guess is they will not be solved -- there are too many other, more important gameplay issues to be worked on, and tellingly I don't see anything in the In Progress about reworking WGAF.
No amount of name-calling or hinting in-game that the developers are lazy (which is a real hoot) will change this fact, DekuDekuplex.