I completely agree Phaserlight, we need much better graphics.

if a good looking product sells it self why does every other space shoot fall on its face before even launching

</defeated>

-Advertise!
-Your idea of crafting is shit and needs to change!
-Deneb Conq stations or Deneb conq system! fuck! how about both!
-Better n00b training

Pizzasgood,

thanks, English is not my mother tongue, and in the German Wikipedia the term "ganker" is explained in a broader sense. But I think you understood my point.

Sorry, no, if the standing exclusiveness is increased to a certain extent you can no longer be killed by "anybody who feels like it".

I think it would be weird if someone who has a high standing with Itani for access to the Valkyrie which allows him to hunt griefers effectively gets shot by turrets in Serco space if he tries to help someone who is griefed there only because of his Itani standing.

I wonder why the right to bravely kill noobs is so passionately defended, by the way.

Because it's FUN.

Aside from that, it's also an example of the fundamental ideas the game revolves around, and therefore something people that actually like VO will defend to their dying breaths.

Edit:
Re "Advertising" on message boards.
Think about whether or not you want someone like Alloh or Ryan Reign or tarenty representing this game. What about someone like genka or dr lecter?
So, what makes you (the reader) think you'd be a better representative of the game and the community? How can you be sure your "advocacy" will make people think of the game in a positive light, when it is much more likely that people will start to think of you as a worthless astro-turfing shill whose opinions should be shat on?

Re Focus groups and marketing synergy.
Seriously? Your idea of a positive input to the game is a "marketing pro"?

Re "most pirates are far from stupid"
Get over yourself, idiot. Most pirates are lucky if they can spell "moran" right.

When you talked about hampering, I thought you meant not being able to kill the pirate because you'd take a faction hit, which is what people normally complain about. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Yeah, if that happened (and I hope it does), somebody admired by the Itani could have difficulty trying to rescue a newb in Serco space. But anybody who is no worse than "disliked" by the Serco would still be able to go in and hunt down the pirate.

As for neutrality, sorry, but if you want to be neutral, you need to be neutral. Making a side like you enough to get their top of the line military equipment is not neutrality.

The Itani and the Serco are AT WAR. If you help the Itani, you are hurting the Serco, and that should piss the Serco off. If you help kill bots in Itani space, that means the Itani can spare to send more ships to Deneb to kill Serco. If you help their economy, they can afford to build more weapons to shoot at the Serco. If you rescue their men, they have more soldiers to send to Deneb to kill Serco.

genka, "bravely killing noobs" may be fun for YOU, I could not find enjoyment in it. I actually think it's pathetic.

That predefined Serco-Itani-war I find meaningless, repetitive and boring, that's why I chose UIT and want to stay out of it and not be hampered by it.

Emphasizing too much on predefined factions in an MMOG leads to a whole string of problems, one of them being that people with interesting ideas for guilds and roleplay get too constrained. Was the same thing in Jumpgate, and these problems are absent in Mankind which I also played and which has no factions / nations at all.

I had the impression in Jumpgate after years of trying to tweak the "faction system" there was a consensus in the end that, if the game should have a future, it should emphasize less on factions and more on guilds (called squads there). The creative forces behind Jumpgate try something new by the way - called: Squad Wars. (But that will probably need a lot of time to reach beta.)

VO seems to have game mechanics that currently allow an effective non-national gameplay in multinational guilds, which I think is a big advantage that should not be jeopardized.

Either start reading more carefully what was written or stop deliberately misinterpreting it.

Either your English comprehension is worse than you think it is, or you haven't been reading the Devs' faction thread very carefully.

It is not, and never has been, planned that UIT couldn't have good standing with both sides. It's just intended that they won't be able to buy high-end Serco/Itani equipment unless they choose a side. If UIT want to be able to trade with both sides, they'll be able to--the price will be access to valks and proms. If UIT want to join the military of one side, they'll be able to--the price will be access to the opposing side.

I think it would be weird if someone who has a high standing with Itani for access to the Valkyrie which allows him to hunt griefers effectively gets shot by turrets in Serco space if he tries to help someone who is griefed there only because of his Itani standing.

This is so mindbogglingly stupid that I can only conclude you are PeyTroll.

That predefined Serco-Itani-war I find meaningless, repetitive and boring, that's why I chose UIT and want to stay out of it and not be hampered by it.

You can stay out of it, but that choice has consequences. Don't expect to earn POS with both sides of a genocidal conflict. For example, my dear German, would you expect the Knight's Cross and the Silver Star to have been awarded to the same soldier in 1942?

Mildly off-topic:

The creative forces behind Jumpgate try something new by the way - called: Squad Wars. (But that will probably need a lot of time to reach beta.)

The kickstarter for that is ending in a couple days with only 6% funded (it will fail.)

If you think it's stupid say why, otherwise fuck off.

Yes, it will fail. Was the wrong point in time to try that before the word had spread.

This is crazy and sorry for the huge post in advance - please read

2) things that jump out from this thread I want to talk about

-1) Marketing -
Savet says:
(((This is really their biggest problem from what I have seen....the lack of consistent promotional advertisement to raise awareness.

They had a great influx of players with the PA thing, but we need to maintain that influx if we assume that 90% aren't going to stick around for whatever reason. Perhaps they should open up an independent contractor position for someone to handle purely promotional activities, targeting what seems to be their niche market: 25-35 IT professionals and hobbyists.

There are a large number of web comics, online communities, etc that cater to these crowds that could be targeted accordingly. )))

TheRedSpy says:
(((The devs need an internet marketing strategist, probably full time to bring the player numbers up.)))

- Concept of a product that has a value to the customer -
Phaserlight says:
(((I could be in the minority, but I'd say go for artwork over marketing. A good looking product sells itself,)))

Ok now that I've setup this topic about marketing for the most part I would say many could agree on this in general, but unless you actually know anything about marketing then this is likely the problem with VO attracting and keeping customers

I'm working on something in one of my businesses currently that talks about this subject exactly

Subject 1)
Does the company (any company) have products and/or services that offer a value to the customer ?

Subject 2)
How to get these products and services to market ?

Subject 1 considerations)
Now consider in any business presentation of any product or service the first subject is considered to determine if the product or service if viable and offer a value to the customer.

We assume VO is a big YES on that one in which the value can be various but it's a tech item so it's a fun value but in short YES

Subject 2 consideration)
This is totally separate of subject one, however since the methods can vary from (do it yourself) advertising to paid advertising and even those methods have variations to them it becomes a matter of personal preference.

For anyone these personal preferences will have limits based on the resources and time available as well. So these preferences will have structure based on capabilities too.

Anyhow moving on regarding Subject 2 considerations aka method of marketing.
If the person or company has limited or NO resources to pay for advertising they are left to learn about self promotion and learn to perform tasks that would otherwise be done by some other professional who specializes in such things.
For example placing an add which works from (ppc) such as google search terms etc.
Or pay a company for qualified leads for that particular industry in this case playing games.
That might not be the best advertising route, but it all depends on how and what industry. Targeted leads are specific in that your getting your advertisement in front of someone who is interested in what your offering.

However if the advertising budget is limited then even this becomes more of a dreaded task which takes away from the business and company products and services but now turns into a subject of getting customers.

Finally let me say this
Products that sell them self actually do not sell them self this is a myth. However it's not 100% myth there is exceptions, but in general it's not true.

Products that sell them self still need to be presented and demonstrated by some method of advertisement.

Without narrowing down the companies capabilities and evaluating which methods would work it's hard to suggest any type of advertising really

If they don't want to put out a bunch to try something let others try it. Offer an incentive for referrals.

You can argue that people should just refer and that all the sudden everyone will play the game but the fact is this just want happen on it's own.

Proof is that many companies have products and services that are great. Actually much better then others and at a better price but they do end up out of business due to lack of advertising.
Incentives does a few things it allowed the company to increase sales without the worry of ROI (return on investment) because they only pay an incentive so long as there is a sale of a product or service. Google operates the same way, well at least for ppc advertising which is not the best advertising by the way. But basically you pay for someone to click on your ad and this does get abused as well, however the ROI is worth it because recognition of your product and service regardless of that particular customer actually buying anything get out there.

Again Google is good for some things but not for others.
However, there are so many things that can be tried by others for an incentive of some sort that you would be amazed at the results and number of players added.

Sorry for the long winded post but this is a critical topic.
Seriously they could even offer at little as 1-5% you would be surprised at who would capitalize on this

Remember Xbank giving out $10 cash just to open an account and $10 for referals which they offered online virtual banking with NO ATM fees for any ATM's

Later changed the name to Paypal and for a time offered $10 for referrals as well

I can't say I know VO's profit margins but even if not a monthly % for subscribers then at least a one time cash bonus for referals would likely do the trick.

But anyhow thats all I know advertising is advertising and the method can be various but if all they do is self advertise then it's very limited to the numbers of people they can reach on their own.

Jesus, someone send that guy to B-school. Succinct just isn't his thing.

Wow, a Captain86 post that could be appropriately ended in "happy blogging."

It's also worth about the same as any other blog post: about 0.3c per word on textbroker to the person running the blog and absolutely nothing, except for wasted time, to anyone else. Hence the verbal diarrhea.

Seriously, at what point did you wake up and go "Why yes, I want to be treated like a faceless number in the accounting books of guild software. My life's dream of being a wallet with pigtails is nearly achieved. I want to be 'social media capitol' and to be manipulated into shilling a game to my so-called friends. This is exactly why I friend everyone I see; so that I can spam their inboxes with unsolicited invites to a videogame. Maybe some of them will bite. About 0.3%. That makes for about a 0.00015% percent return for me on my time invested, if I was paying myself $4.00 an hour! If I add more friends, I could get like 0.00017%! My god, my life is nearly complete!"

I think people are forgetting that the way the game is set up new players can get back at more experienced players who kill them early on. Wait until you see them damaged during PVP or flying an XC and kill them then. The other strategy is to practice your PVP until you reach a point where you can get revenge. The fact that the universe has no safe spots can work for new players just as well as veterans.

if a good looking product sells it self why does every other space shoot fall on its face before even launching

Because a good looking game that lacks substance isn't worth playing. Vendetta already has what so many other games try desperately to get: fun gameplay. Veteran players know this and probably don't care as much about graphics as someone who is just coming to check out the game. A game that has substance but lacks good graphics may have longevity for its core playerbase, and may indeed develop a cult following; just look at nethack. However, graphical design is important.

The game is on much more solid footing than it was in 2004, so when I say that the game sells itself I mean that an average player who experiences the game is likely to buy it. It's still a very unfinished product, but there is a threshold at which the experience is enough to justify a monthly subscription for the average gamer. I think Vendetta is at the point where it may be crossing this threshold. In saying the game sells itself I was using a figure of speech; of course it still needs to be presented. Whether GS is at a point that a full time marketing position would be justified is something we the userbase may never know, but I would guess it's far less likely than for a company such as CocaCola.

I think GS has a good product on their hands, with unparalleled core value (the NAOS engine) when it comes to their target market. One of VO's weak areas that I see consistently mentioned is the ship design. I don't mean the Teradon, Constellation, the Raptor, Revenant, or the new EC-89, but the Centurion, the Hornet, the Centaur, the Vulture (yes I know it has an awesomely thin frontal profile) etc. If Luis had stayed on longer than he had we would probably be looking at all new ship designs, plus new looks/designs for the three Hives as well.

Genka's jibes aside, I think one or two brand evangelists could fill the role of a marketing director at this point, whereas the devs are in a better position to continue improving their product.

What was the projected ROI for the android launch? What was the actual ROI?

2nd-ly:
Look what this game does in response to "ganking"

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28640

"There are certain forms of griefing that can get you banned from the game. These include (but probably are not limited to) can baiting in rookie systems"

Source: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Griefing

I'd just like to point out that Bungarus appears to be committing the slippery slope logical fallacy. Because certain factions are at war and a single player cannot attain high levels of faction with both sides, it does not necessarily follow that such a player would be physically blocked out from one side or the other. In fact, players with a certain level of skill are able to evade national defenses and penetrate hostile territory, as Pizzasgood and Dr. Lecter hint at (a ship with a fast charge cell and 50 turbo energy drain or less is usually necessary for this).

Eve appears as a very numbers-oriented game, and while I'm sure it is deep in its own right I am glad Vendetta takes a very different stance. Player killing is allowed nearly everywhere, and is not considered "griefing". As Pizzasgood mentioned, "ganking" is actually an abbreviation of "gang-killing" and cannot be achieved by a single player (another pet misnomer of mine), although I'm sure most of us understood what Bungarus meant.

I've often heard Eve fans vaunt the number of players online simultaneously, and use it as justification for game mechanics. For me, it's not so much about numbers, but the quality of the experience. I was killed in a trade ship within my first couple days of playing and had to watch all my hard earned cargo get picked up by the pirate, and after a brief moment of chagrin, I was back in the pilot seat determined to hone my skills to the point I could attain my revenge. I never quite got there, but I did reach a level where I was respected by my former assailant and we almost had a certain kind of kinship although we were often fighting each other.

The best advice I can give to the newbies is just relax and enjoy the experience. There is a lot to learn in VO despite the overlying simplicity. I appreciate reading your feedback, as you are in a privileged perspective. Also bear in mind that some who are in this thread have been playing for years, and may not easily remember what it was like as a new player. Be communicative, helpful, and friendly; you'll find you enjoy the company.

Some games lack the sense of timing that's needed for a fun game, others have some sense of game play but they've been designed and/or programmed by people who's skill set is, at the very most, mediocre. With VO we have a game that's been designed and programmed by true gamer's, guru's of their chosen art form.

Phaserlight: I know what you mean about the quality of the experience. A couple of weeks ago VO had me feeling things I hadn't felt in a very long time, namely vengeance!

Its silly I know but I'd never really given VO's title much thought until that moment. So, there I was, minding my own bleed'n business and getting ready to make a jump through a worm hole when out of know where a couple of rounds hit my hull from behind, and before I had a chance to react I was blown into tiny pieces by the next well aimed volley. The pilot shall remain nameless but I couldn't believe how something as simple as a computer game had stirred such strong emotions in me, I was seething.

But, as it turned out, a few days later I was heading towards a space station when out of the blue who should fly out: none other than the pilot who'd cleaned my clock a few days previous. Right I thought, this is it, I'm gonna blast this sucker clean out of the sky. But without really thinking and my inexperience showing to the full, I ploughed on in there guns and missiles a-blazing. Needless to say his ship and skill level were much better than mine and I was toast again within seconds. Learned a few valuable lessons that day. And besides, revenge is a dish best served ice cold.
I've even gone as far as putting his name up on my white board in red letters with the amount of times he's blown me up. Shit, I need to get out more.

Another thing I really like about VO is that it gets my curiosity going. There is just so much depth here I feel I'm only just scratching the surface.

"...gamer's, guru's..."

In ca'se there are any non-naitive engli'sh 'speaker's 'still following thi's trainwreck of a thread, thi's i's not an appropriate use of apo'strophe's.