Forums » General
So, dat buls1t abutt "mmorpg" wus just dat, bullsh3t?
neway, Dr. Lectern, wut ur sayin than is dat dots r tots cool cuz dey dunt kno nething a plyr wuldnt kno abutt u if dat plyr wus in da sam sectr as u.
Butt, of curse, da hole pnt is dat a bot is nut a playa. It, leik a neuron blastr, is jut a toll a payer can use to giv hisself a advantge. In dat capsity, a dater-gathrn bot or a hole network of butts, has at lest tree fucktors dat macke it un-good:
A) Unlake a tachyan blastr, which has spcific appppplicatsion withn the frmwrk of da gam, a monitring butt is maked to crcumvectt gam mechnichs. A playr can c da activty in his oun sctr. Dis is a game mechnic, not an engin limitaton. By usin a dta colectin bot, a plyr can nau be awar of activty in sector dat is nut his oun. And derefore, is a BIG FAT CHEET.
2] bc , as u sai, a bot netwrk can giv u da sam informs as a cordinatd effrt by orgnaised grup, a persn wid a butt ntwrk can nau find his nemsis w/o evr talkin to ne1. To sai dat a butt netwrk "incrss chances of plair 2 playr intracions occruing" is ambisius. 2 me, it seams the opsite is much moar lickley
*} da abuv r gud resuns 4 devzzz tu not like butts, but as prayrs, we shuld nut leik butts 2: dese bots put da $1 subz in jepordy. If it duz turn aut dat ppl wid dese butts r usin da $1 subzzz 2 run deir butt netwrk, it may becum anuthr argumnt aganst dese experimntl subscriptins. Wat is pint of offrin cheep servise if only ppl to use it r heartles metel ovrlords?
Dere is of curse a gud argumnt in favr of dese butts:
Da devzzz mai figur dat best wai to deal wid dem is by limitin da infors dat is availbl thrugh LUA. Da result is dat dere will finly be lss of dese guddamn fuking plugns! Maks me wunt to mak mai own butt netwrk!
neway, Dr. Lectern, wut ur sayin than is dat dots r tots cool cuz dey dunt kno nething a plyr wuldnt kno abutt u if dat plyr wus in da sam sectr as u.
Butt, of curse, da hole pnt is dat a bot is nut a playa. It, leik a neuron blastr, is jut a toll a payer can use to giv hisself a advantge. In dat capsity, a dater-gathrn bot or a hole network of butts, has at lest tree fucktors dat macke it un-good:
A) Unlake a tachyan blastr, which has spcific appppplicatsion withn the frmwrk of da gam, a monitring butt is maked to crcumvectt gam mechnichs. A playr can c da activty in his oun sctr. Dis is a game mechnic, not an engin limitaton. By usin a dta colectin bot, a plyr can nau be awar of activty in sector dat is nut his oun. And derefore, is a BIG FAT CHEET.
2] bc , as u sai, a bot netwrk can giv u da sam informs as a cordinatd effrt by orgnaised grup, a persn wid a butt ntwrk can nau find his nemsis w/o evr talkin to ne1. To sai dat a butt netwrk "incrss chances of plair 2 playr intracions occruing" is ambisius. 2 me, it seams the opsite is much moar lickley
*} da abuv r gud resuns 4 devzzz tu not like butts, but as prayrs, we shuld nut leik butts 2: dese bots put da $1 subz in jepordy. If it duz turn aut dat ppl wid dese butts r usin da $1 subzzz 2 run deir butt netwrk, it may becum anuthr argumnt aganst dese experimntl subscriptins. Wat is pint of offrin cheep servise if only ppl to use it r heartles metel ovrlords?
Dere is of curse a gud argumnt in favr of dese butts:
Da devzzz mai figur dat best wai to deal wid dem is by limitin da infors dat is availbl thrugh LUA. Da result is dat dere will finly be lss of dese guddamn fuking plugns! Maks me wunt to mak mai own butt netwrk!
tl;dr
lol so mucch 4 bein cognt
"The point is not that a single guild has a large number of bots but rather they will force several other guilds to reciprocate so those mere 30 bots will quickly become 300 bots or more."
I agree with PaK, bring back the 'online' list!
I agree with PaK, bring back the 'online' list!
"U can ki11 em liek NE1 else, to, also."
Except that in this case, that isn't really true. They only remain online for around 30 seconds before winking out again (even less if you don't interrupt their logout). Since they're beyond targeting range, this seriously slows down the process of locating them so that you can kill them.
Otherwise I agree with your assessment.
Except that in this case, that isn't really true. They only remain online for around 30 seconds before winking out again (even less if you don't interrupt their logout). Since they're beyond targeting range, this seriously slows down the process of locating them so that you can kill them.
Otherwise I agree with your assessment.
"Except that in this case, that isn't really true. "
That's not correct, any player or group of players can monitor you from far away and log out before you have time to find them. And you know that which is why you tabled the change to the logout system to deal with it.
That's not correct, any player or group of players can monitor you from far away and log out before you have time to find them. And you know that which is why you tabled the change to the logout system to deal with it.
I was responding to the statement that implied that it's easy to kill them, not to the player/bot parity.
It's not hard to kill them, it's hard to find them, once you find them it's a bot so unlike a person it's not going to know that you're waiting to kill it. Either way you spin it, the only difference between the bot and the person is the bot isn't subject to boredom.
So fars I can tell... some traders that have allied with some nationalists have their panties in a twist because their allies enemies attack them.
Shut up.
Shut up.
^^^ Ryan Reign
PA has found a solution to the bot problem. They have decided to counter it by sending Interstellar into deep space with an EC-89 to hurl homophobic remarks at passersby. Guys, when I suggested guilds would build their own bot network....this is not what I meant. You're making my foresight look a bit non-foresightey.
IDD, Ryan, Savet and others who can't seem to figure out this isn't the RP forum:
Please stay on topic or stay out of the discussion.
Please stay on topic or stay out of the discussion.
Hey, here's a thought...it's not the suggestion forum either. Stop suggesting stuff and stuff.
So, if I understand things correctly, their are a couple reasons why bots should not be allowed, as follows:
1) The SCIN-?? bots log in and out so quickly that it gives the operator an unfair advantage, and maybe puts extra stress on the servers
2) Only gambling and IRC bots should be allowed in the game, the rest just spy on people, and that is an invasion of your hidability, um, privacy.
3) The bots in question are automated, they don't need any human intervention (I don't truly believe that, yet from the posts I have read that is what is being suggested.)
4) Bots are a cheat - they allow you to look around corners without having to be in the same room - almost like a police robot checking out a car bomb.
5) Bots are EVIL I tell ya, pure EVIL. Ok, so I added this one, yet it sounds good :)
6) The developers limited the information range, instead of unlimited in the sector, now it is down to just 15km, and you still have to be within 5km to find out what the person is flying, etc. This limited the usefulness of prior bots that PA and FAMY had stationed at the two main wormholes to gray space, as they could no longer remain 100,000km away and report who just entered the sector. This suggests that the developers do not care for bots, ignoring the fact that they have not said as much, and yet the gambling and IRC bots have been around as long as those other two bots.
7) It is abusive of the friend key system, which was designed to introduce new players to the game.
8) It is abusive of the lite subscription model available through Google's Playstore
9) Just because the rules do not state in simple terms that bots are not allowed does not mean it is ok. This suggests common sense, yet when you are so poor you can't even afford to pay attention it kind of falls on deaf ears.
Now the other side of the coin, if I may:
A) The lite subscription for a bot still helps contribute funds to further the development of this game
B) A full account should be allowed to have whatever they want, if that means a bot as the main charter, and/or the five alts, then so be it.
C) This does nothing that a group or guild of players can't do already, just makes it easier
D) Automation has existed in the game for quite a while, in one form or another. Take afk mining for example - even if it is not advisable, it is still possible.
And the other stuff being thrown around:
i) Hiding in asteroids - yes, it is possible, I have managed to do so once myself, yet a properly placed bomb takes care of that. Shearing is possible as well, and again, that doesn't make you invincible, just postpones the encounter.
ii) Hiding in a station, and being able to check your sensor log, and see what is happening around you. And a plug-in being able to see that same info. (My stance: If I am flying an XC I do not want to launch from a station only to find some trigger happy jerk in a SkyCommand sitting out side the dock waiting to blindside me. )
iii) Other stuff, like the on-line player list, that showed the player's location in the game, has been disabled as people have figured out how to abuse it.
iv) Limit the way a person can log in and out. Use a captua to log in, ignoring the fact that there are sites set up where you pay 10 cents per captua, and if it is not a good captua, it can be solved by a plug-in or support program And the log-out delay is a bad idea as well, as I remember playing on a table, and having problems with plug-ins. I had to exit asap to move and isolate the misbehaving plug-ins.
v) Bots are pure EVIL, and everyone will want one for themselves
Did I miss anything?
Lets get rid of all the bots, and take some of the code from Targetless, and modify it to make people happy or angry as heck. TA is able to collect information and display it on your HUD. What if it was written into the game where it would collect that information, then announce it on a special channel for the whole world to see? Would that solve the problem for everyone? You could /leave 0 if you didn't want to be bothered with the information, or view it for ganking purposes. Heck, you could even call it Mission Control, or the FAA, ensuring safe travel in space (no collisions), something even FAMY has not be able to sell a warranty on, try as they might, and they do come close at times.
As long as there are rats pretending to be nationalists, mobsters putting a new spin on extortion as warranty sales, and just trigger happy grievers, then I am all for the bots, just make sure I can access the information.
1) The SCIN-?? bots log in and out so quickly that it gives the operator an unfair advantage, and maybe puts extra stress on the servers
2) Only gambling and IRC bots should be allowed in the game, the rest just spy on people, and that is an invasion of your hidability, um, privacy.
3) The bots in question are automated, they don't need any human intervention (I don't truly believe that, yet from the posts I have read that is what is being suggested.)
4) Bots are a cheat - they allow you to look around corners without having to be in the same room - almost like a police robot checking out a car bomb.
5) Bots are EVIL I tell ya, pure EVIL. Ok, so I added this one, yet it sounds good :)
6) The developers limited the information range, instead of unlimited in the sector, now it is down to just 15km, and you still have to be within 5km to find out what the person is flying, etc. This limited the usefulness of prior bots that PA and FAMY had stationed at the two main wormholes to gray space, as they could no longer remain 100,000km away and report who just entered the sector. This suggests that the developers do not care for bots, ignoring the fact that they have not said as much, and yet the gambling and IRC bots have been around as long as those other two bots.
7) It is abusive of the friend key system, which was designed to introduce new players to the game.
8) It is abusive of the lite subscription model available through Google's Playstore
9) Just because the rules do not state in simple terms that bots are not allowed does not mean it is ok. This suggests common sense, yet when you are so poor you can't even afford to pay attention it kind of falls on deaf ears.
Now the other side of the coin, if I may:
A) The lite subscription for a bot still helps contribute funds to further the development of this game
B) A full account should be allowed to have whatever they want, if that means a bot as the main charter, and/or the five alts, then so be it.
C) This does nothing that a group or guild of players can't do already, just makes it easier
D) Automation has existed in the game for quite a while, in one form or another. Take afk mining for example - even if it is not advisable, it is still possible.
And the other stuff being thrown around:
i) Hiding in asteroids - yes, it is possible, I have managed to do so once myself, yet a properly placed bomb takes care of that. Shearing is possible as well, and again, that doesn't make you invincible, just postpones the encounter.
ii) Hiding in a station, and being able to check your sensor log, and see what is happening around you. And a plug-in being able to see that same info. (My stance: If I am flying an XC I do not want to launch from a station only to find some trigger happy jerk in a SkyCommand sitting out side the dock waiting to blindside me. )
iii) Other stuff, like the on-line player list, that showed the player's location in the game, has been disabled as people have figured out how to abuse it.
iv) Limit the way a person can log in and out. Use a captua to log in, ignoring the fact that there are sites set up where you pay 10 cents per captua, and if it is not a good captua, it can be solved by a plug-in or support program And the log-out delay is a bad idea as well, as I remember playing on a table, and having problems with plug-ins. I had to exit asap to move and isolate the misbehaving plug-ins.
v) Bots are pure EVIL, and everyone will want one for themselves
Did I miss anything?
Lets get rid of all the bots, and take some of the code from Targetless, and modify it to make people happy or angry as heck. TA is able to collect information and display it on your HUD. What if it was written into the game where it would collect that information, then announce it on a special channel for the whole world to see? Would that solve the problem for everyone? You could /leave 0 if you didn't want to be bothered with the information, or view it for ganking purposes. Heck, you could even call it Mission Control, or the FAA, ensuring safe travel in space (no collisions), something even FAMY has not be able to sell a warranty on, try as they might, and they do come close at times.
As long as there are rats pretending to be nationalists, mobsters putting a new spin on extortion as warranty sales, and just trigger happy grievers, then I am all for the bots, just make sure I can access the information.
Here's what I've seen.
Someone/guild has had bots monitoring conq stations and WH's for months. RED (presumably) comes along, and does it better, so now some people are pissed. Seems to me, this is a "RED is evil" thing. If it's the bots that are the issue, and not just people whinging about RED, then why did no one complain untill the SCIN bots showed up?
Seems to me like there's a bit of a double standard here. Bots are OK until RED uses them, then they're cheating...
These SCIN bots have been around more than long enough for the devs to intervene, should they feel the need. Clearly, they don't.
Dent.
Someone/guild has had bots monitoring conq stations and WH's for months. RED (presumably) comes along, and does it better, so now some people are pissed. Seems to me, this is a "RED is evil" thing. If it's the bots that are the issue, and not just people whinging about RED, then why did no one complain untill the SCIN bots showed up?
Seems to me like there's a bit of a double standard here. Bots are OK until RED uses them, then they're cheating...
These SCIN bots have been around more than long enough for the devs to intervene, should they feel the need. Clearly, they don't.
Dent.
@Mick the Mighty
1) There is no proof that the logoffs put extra stress on the servers as TRS mentioned above.
2) Hope you know those bots are used for spying too, and IRC_/Xishnik is used by ITAN to stockpile xithrite for the CtC competition
3) Does it really matter that they're automated? Many other things in the game are automated
4) You don't have to be in the same room
5) No comment
6) Not really, it just suggests that they realized that your sensors could pick up too much for the sectors that were enlargened and made it more realistic. Besides, spacing people out is still possible so they really didn't mean what you said.
7) All other players are entitled to friend keys, how is this abusive
8) See above
9) When other people use it then we start using them and then they start whining about it, yes it is okay
Also:
v) Everyone already has one for themselves. PA has PheonixVoice that moniters Odia M-14, FAMY has Family Galactic Travel sitting in the Dau capital to where newbs come from the training sectors (obviously, they plan on killing the poor newb), ITAN has IRC_ to stash Purified Xithrite in for the CtC competition as mentioned above and when not doing that, moniter a critical sector like Sedina B-8
@DentedHead
You are exactly correct. These people that are whining about removing the bots are our enemies. So far, they haven't provided a valid reason to do it for. Someone should just lock this thread because it's going nowhere and everyone is just whining like they haven't used bots themselves.
1) There is no proof that the logoffs put extra stress on the servers as TRS mentioned above.
2) Hope you know those bots are used for spying too, and IRC_/Xishnik is used by ITAN to stockpile xithrite for the CtC competition
3) Does it really matter that they're automated? Many other things in the game are automated
4) You don't have to be in the same room
5) No comment
6) Not really, it just suggests that they realized that your sensors could pick up too much for the sectors that were enlargened and made it more realistic. Besides, spacing people out is still possible so they really didn't mean what you said.
7) All other players are entitled to friend keys, how is this abusive
8) See above
9) When other people use it then we start using them and then they start whining about it, yes it is okay
Also:
v) Everyone already has one for themselves. PA has PheonixVoice that moniters Odia M-14, FAMY has Family Galactic Travel sitting in the Dau capital to where newbs come from the training sectors (obviously, they plan on killing the poor newb), ITAN has IRC_ to stash Purified Xithrite in for the CtC competition as mentioned above and when not doing that, moniter a critical sector like Sedina B-8
@DentedHead
You are exactly correct. These people that are whining about removing the bots are our enemies. So far, they haven't provided a valid reason to do it for. Someone should just lock this thread because it's going nowhere and everyone is just whining like they haven't used bots themselves.
"IDD, Ryan, Savet and others who can't seem to figure out this isn't the RP forum:
Please stay on topic or stay out of the discussion."
Where in my post did I engage in RP? Here's a hint... (as you seem to have trouble reading or with basic comprehension)... I didn't. I simply pointed out that a bunch of traders were whinging because they were being shot at by their allies enemies.
None of which constitutes RP, ya non reading, non comprehending simpleton.
Please stay on topic or stay out of the discussion."
Where in my post did I engage in RP? Here's a hint... (as you seem to have trouble reading or with basic comprehension)... I didn't. I simply pointed out that a bunch of traders were whinging because they were being shot at by their allies enemies.
None of which constitutes RP, ya non reading, non comprehending simpleton.
After reading this thread, I started feeling like I'm in Big Brother (that reality TV show). Everyone knows every step I make, and will use this against me whenever possible.
These SCIN bots have been around more than long enough for the devs to intervene, should they feel the need.
Not necessarily; remember, they are a 4 man team. Also, GDC was this past week. Incarnate was there. If any of the other devs were keeping an eye on the home fort, they were probably (understandably) reluctant to do anything too drastic while the creative director was away.
Personally, I welcome the added challenge, but I have no idea if this constitutes "reasonable use" in the devs' eyes or not.
Not necessarily; remember, they are a 4 man team. Also, GDC was this past week. Incarnate was there. If any of the other devs were keeping an eye on the home fort, they were probably (understandably) reluctant to do anything too drastic while the creative director was away.
Personally, I welcome the added challenge, but I have no idea if this constitutes "reasonable use" in the devs' eyes or not.
@Ryan
"So fars I can tell... some traders that have allied with some nationalists have their panties in a twist because their allies enemies attack them."
This is very much aligned with statements made repeatedly by IDD all along in the thread, and his statements were blatantly RP in nature. If RP was not your intent, then I apologize for the misinterpretation. However, I don't personally insult you. You might try the same.
@Back on Topic:
My primary concern with the bots is the way they're implemented here. For the record: the PhoenixVoice bot does not run a monitoring plugin. I felt it was dishonorable. While PA members DO have monitoring plugins, they are restricted only to those actually playing. While this does limit some information (so far as the PV bot goes, I mean, how much could one static bot gather? Not to mention it's in the middle of gray space), I felt running things that way would not constitute an abuse of what the game allows, and PV is a fully subscribed player. (I should know, I pay both my own and PV's subscriptions) While the PGT bot is towing the line in my opinion (because of its placement), it DOES constitute a legal use of a "monitoring" bot in that it's static (i.e. limited to a station and logged in all the time). I don't know about ITAN's bot (I really don't), but if the allegations are true, its use as other than an IRC link would tow the line if not wander a bit over into abuse-land; still as a 'static' bot, I would argue that for most of its functions, it TOO constitutes a legal use of a 'monitoring' bot. My issue with the SCIN bots is on these accounts: A) they're not static, B) the design of their behavior gives offline players far more information than would normally be accounted for in a balanced game (which would go away if they all were required to be fully subscribed accounts. If anyone wants to pay full price for static bots in all those stations, then go for it; I'm sure GS would enjoy the extra money), C) their apparent use of lite accounts or friend keys constitutes an actual abuse of the intent of those systems. As I stated once before, this isn't about whether things should be 'safe'. It's about a non-dev having effectively a 'God's-Eye' view of an entire section of the game universe. Worse is that given the transient nature of the SCIN bots, there are very few counter measures which can be take against them. (and all of those require a person literally to throw away hours of time sitting and waiting for one to pop-up) Frankly, I typically get an hour to 90 minutes to play when I'm on, and even then usually only 2-3 times a week at best. (sometimes only once a week I can be online) I'm quite certain many other players have similar restrictions. Most new players, when faced with the idea that potentially increasingly large sections of the map are subject to universal monitoring by non-devs, non-devs who are doing so for the purposes of hunting down and shooting others (regardless of the reason), are NOT going to stay. Part of the game is fighting, but part of the game is being able to remain undetected too, and some are forgetting that.
I guess that means we should all define what constitutes a legal (i.e. within the game) use of a monitoring bot, then agree to abide by those rules. Just saying a player could do something doesn't make it a legal use either. No one likes what DE was doing with the trial accounts, but a player COULD play that way. There's nothing in game stopping him from playing the way he does, but it still constitutes an abuse of the game.
From my perspective, this would suggest:
1) A monitoring bot should be static with a paying subscription (I am willing to accept these could be Lite subbies, but no alts)
2) Should remain logged into a single location (i.e. be a persistent entity)
3) Should be restricted to behaviors that could be done by a player who remained logged in at all times. e.g. monitoring that sector, recording chat in buffers (which is what Spence's pet does; I've experimented with data mining of the chat buffers to discern locations of players with some success, although none of this implemented in game), banking, gambling, chat bots who sell information, PR bots for boasting its guild's prowess.
If we continue to abuse the use of bots, they will likely be banned. This would be damaging in that some guilds are using bots in an effort to enhance gameplay (and not just for themselves). This is what happened to the Lua API when people were writing combat bots to control their ships during combat. It got so bad that GS eventually turned off all those functions. (sadly for me - I was starting to build an auto-gunner plugin to run turrets on a player's ship) The arguments then were the same as now, VO is not a safe game, players should be allowed to do anything in game they aren't specifically prohibited from doing, the non-bot PvPers are just whining because the bot PvPers were able to do something better, so they should just shut up; it's all there, then as now.
"So fars I can tell... some traders that have allied with some nationalists have their panties in a twist because their allies enemies attack them."
This is very much aligned with statements made repeatedly by IDD all along in the thread, and his statements were blatantly RP in nature. If RP was not your intent, then I apologize for the misinterpretation. However, I don't personally insult you. You might try the same.
@Back on Topic:
My primary concern with the bots is the way they're implemented here. For the record: the PhoenixVoice bot does not run a monitoring plugin. I felt it was dishonorable. While PA members DO have monitoring plugins, they are restricted only to those actually playing. While this does limit some information (so far as the PV bot goes, I mean, how much could one static bot gather? Not to mention it's in the middle of gray space), I felt running things that way would not constitute an abuse of what the game allows, and PV is a fully subscribed player. (I should know, I pay both my own and PV's subscriptions) While the PGT bot is towing the line in my opinion (because of its placement), it DOES constitute a legal use of a "monitoring" bot in that it's static (i.e. limited to a station and logged in all the time). I don't know about ITAN's bot (I really don't), but if the allegations are true, its use as other than an IRC link would tow the line if not wander a bit over into abuse-land; still as a 'static' bot, I would argue that for most of its functions, it TOO constitutes a legal use of a 'monitoring' bot. My issue with the SCIN bots is on these accounts: A) they're not static, B) the design of their behavior gives offline players far more information than would normally be accounted for in a balanced game (which would go away if they all were required to be fully subscribed accounts. If anyone wants to pay full price for static bots in all those stations, then go for it; I'm sure GS would enjoy the extra money), C) their apparent use of lite accounts or friend keys constitutes an actual abuse of the intent of those systems. As I stated once before, this isn't about whether things should be 'safe'. It's about a non-dev having effectively a 'God's-Eye' view of an entire section of the game universe. Worse is that given the transient nature of the SCIN bots, there are very few counter measures which can be take against them. (and all of those require a person literally to throw away hours of time sitting and waiting for one to pop-up) Frankly, I typically get an hour to 90 minutes to play when I'm on, and even then usually only 2-3 times a week at best. (sometimes only once a week I can be online) I'm quite certain many other players have similar restrictions. Most new players, when faced with the idea that potentially increasingly large sections of the map are subject to universal monitoring by non-devs, non-devs who are doing so for the purposes of hunting down and shooting others (regardless of the reason), are NOT going to stay. Part of the game is fighting, but part of the game is being able to remain undetected too, and some are forgetting that.
I guess that means we should all define what constitutes a legal (i.e. within the game) use of a monitoring bot, then agree to abide by those rules. Just saying a player could do something doesn't make it a legal use either. No one likes what DE was doing with the trial accounts, but a player COULD play that way. There's nothing in game stopping him from playing the way he does, but it still constitutes an abuse of the game.
From my perspective, this would suggest:
1) A monitoring bot should be static with a paying subscription (I am willing to accept these could be Lite subbies, but no alts)
2) Should remain logged into a single location (i.e. be a persistent entity)
3) Should be restricted to behaviors that could be done by a player who remained logged in at all times. e.g. monitoring that sector, recording chat in buffers (which is what Spence's pet does; I've experimented with data mining of the chat buffers to discern locations of players with some success, although none of this implemented in game), banking, gambling, chat bots who sell information, PR bots for boasting its guild's prowess.
If we continue to abuse the use of bots, they will likely be banned. This would be damaging in that some guilds are using bots in an effort to enhance gameplay (and not just for themselves). This is what happened to the Lua API when people were writing combat bots to control their ships during combat. It got so bad that GS eventually turned off all those functions. (sadly for me - I was starting to build an auto-gunner plugin to run turrets on a player's ship) The arguments then were the same as now, VO is not a safe game, players should be allowed to do anything in game they aren't specifically prohibited from doing, the non-bot PvPers are just whining because the bot PvPers were able to do something better, so they should just shut up; it's all there, then as now.