Forums » General
You're an idiot. NPC's are an important part of the game, and do not give information to a particular group.
Notice the only people opposed to removing these bots are RED, and people who don't play the game.
Do not allow plugins to control logins/logouts, simple fix.
Notice the only people opposed to removing these bots are RED, and people who don't play the game.
Do not allow plugins to control logins/logouts, simple fix.
No. Plugins should be able to control logins and logouts. It's useful for benign bots (so they can reconnect automatically after a network disruption, server reboot, etc.) as well as for letting humans have an auto-login plugin or even a "throw me into one of my alts at random" plugin. Besides, making an external program to handle login/logout is even easier than building a bot. If they're going through this much trouble to set it up, that won't stop them.
Just fix the actual logout process to leave the ship behind for a few minutes after you log out. Most people wouldn't even notice since they log out in stations. Those who log out in space could still log out just as fast or even faster. They'd just risk somebody coming along later and blowing up their ship - tough cookies, be more careful. That solves player exploits as well as this bot one.
I'm still waiting for anybody to name an activity this would actually hamper that isn't essentially cheating. I've named several it would improve already (trident-fighting, pirating, bot hunting), so currently we're looking at plenty of pros and only two very minor cons (logging out in B8 would be risky, and having your net drop out might get you dead - but it can already do that).
Just fix the actual logout process to leave the ship behind for a few minutes after you log out. Most people wouldn't even notice since they log out in stations. Those who log out in space could still log out just as fast or even faster. They'd just risk somebody coming along later and blowing up their ship - tough cookies, be more careful. That solves player exploits as well as this bot one.
I'm still waiting for anybody to name an activity this would actually hamper that isn't essentially cheating. I've named several it would improve already (trident-fighting, pirating, bot hunting), so currently we're looking at plenty of pros and only two very minor cons (logging out in B8 would be risky, and having your net drop out might get you dead - but it can already do that).
It seems unnecessary and won't really solve the 'problem'. It's also really really annoying for trident pilots who logout across the universe with precious cargo because they have to. And again, there's no player disruption at all by the bots. So yeah Alexis the bots may be fully automated but they're also fully harmless. The only player disruption is allegedly by RED who run around killing notorious itani supporting scum whose primary in game activity is complaining. We damn sure don't need bots to do that.
It's just another opportunity for kierky and pak to cry like babies. Why should we have to be inconvenienced logging out just because these two make a fuss?
It's just another opportunity for kierky and pak to cry like babies. Why should we have to be inconvenienced logging out just because these two make a fuss?
It's also really really annoying for trident pilots who logout across the universe with precious cargo because they have to.
How so? Log out in an empty sector. You're pretty much safe.
It's just another opportunity for kierky and pak to cry like babies. Why should we have to be inconvenienced logging out just because these two make a fuss?
This is your counterargument?
We damn sure don't need bots to do that.
Why have them then?
How so? Log out in an empty sector. You're pretty much safe.
It's just another opportunity for kierky and pak to cry like babies. Why should we have to be inconvenienced logging out just because these two make a fuss?
This is your counterargument?
We damn sure don't need bots to do that.
Why have them then?
Bottomline:
If we plan to BAN BOTs, it will result in a RACE, when GS will be allways trying to add features and fixes to prevent them, and users trying to circunvent that.
Control API limiting login/logout can also be circunvent, with a real user making a interactive login/logout, even responding to captchas, then the bot takes over. Even a TCP seseion can be hijacked, easily when both processes are in same box.
So, only practical alternative left is GS issue a statement on Bot usage, and a "gentlemen agreement" between the parts. Anything else will result in a race, and challenge users to break the system. Even more when you realize that so many VO users are IT experts!
--------
My personal vote is that, as implemented now, SCIN bots are invasive due the frequent login/out cycle. Other than that they are valid usage of VO universe. I like to see bots do what players aren't available to do.
And GS "Bot Usage Agreement" should limit the bots to grayspace only. Not allowed in Nation Space per GS' Rules and backstory.(RP: Nations don't like them). And request a paying subs, regular or lite.
If we plan to BAN BOTs, it will result in a RACE, when GS will be allways trying to add features and fixes to prevent them, and users trying to circunvent that.
Control API limiting login/logout can also be circunvent, with a real user making a interactive login/logout, even responding to captchas, then the bot takes over. Even a TCP seseion can be hijacked, easily when both processes are in same box.
So, only practical alternative left is GS issue a statement on Bot usage, and a "gentlemen agreement" between the parts. Anything else will result in a race, and challenge users to break the system. Even more when you realize that so many VO users are IT experts!
--------
My personal vote is that, as implemented now, SCIN bots are invasive due the frequent login/out cycle. Other than that they are valid usage of VO universe. I like to see bots do what players aren't available to do.
And GS "Bot Usage Agreement" should limit the bots to grayspace only. Not allowed in Nation Space per GS' Rules and backstory.(RP: Nations don't like them). And request a paying subs, regular or lite.
Seems pretty unfair that one group can know what's going on across the universe.
+1 to removing them.
+1 to removing them.
"Seems pretty unfair that one group can know what's going on across the universe."
Correction, any group that develops their own bot network can see what's going on across the universe, therefore it is not unfair. Just like any group that develops a plugin to aggregate trade data gets to see what the prices of trade goods are in real time throughout the universe.
- "It's just another opportunity for kierky and pak to cry like babies. Why should we have to be inconvenienced logging out just because these two make a fuss?"
"This is your counterargument?"
Counter argument to what? PaK and Kierky have said nothing besides that they think the bots belong to RED and that they don't like them and on that basis they should be removed. No counter argument necessary, they've failed to establish any reasonable basis why characters should be disallowed from operating inside the game. So they do a better job of something than every other bot? So what? The valkryie does a better job at light fighting than the SVG but as much as we serco nationalists protest nothing is done about it.
"Why have them then?"
Why the hell not? People like to build impressive things or new things or controversial things and these are all of the above. There's multiple purposes these bots probably serve besides just spying such as collecting trade data pricing and other station information so who knows what the point of the bots are. I just know none of them have ever killed me and if they lead to me getting into more combat situations well bring it on!
Correction, any group that develops their own bot network can see what's going on across the universe, therefore it is not unfair. Just like any group that develops a plugin to aggregate trade data gets to see what the prices of trade goods are in real time throughout the universe.
- "It's just another opportunity for kierky and pak to cry like babies. Why should we have to be inconvenienced logging out just because these two make a fuss?"
"This is your counterargument?"
Counter argument to what? PaK and Kierky have said nothing besides that they think the bots belong to RED and that they don't like them and on that basis they should be removed. No counter argument necessary, they've failed to establish any reasonable basis why characters should be disallowed from operating inside the game. So they do a better job of something than every other bot? So what? The valkryie does a better job at light fighting than the SVG but as much as we serco nationalists protest nothing is done about it.
"Why have them then?"
Why the hell not? People like to build impressive things or new things or controversial things and these are all of the above. There's multiple purposes these bots probably serve besides just spying such as collecting trade data pricing and other station information so who knows what the point of the bots are. I just know none of them have ever killed me and if they lead to me getting into more combat situations well bring it on!
Counter argument to what?
Your counterargument to everyone else that is saying we should change how logouts work, not PaK and Kierky specifically.
Why the hell not?
The many reasons discussed in this post already.
Your counterargument to everyone else that is saying we should change how logouts work, not PaK and Kierky specifically.
Why the hell not?
The many reasons discussed in this post already.
This is WAR. You really think we're not gonna try to get an advantage over the people we need and already slaughtering?
@TRS: Yes, Kierky and PaKettle really have no such basis to ban bots on.
@PaKettle: Want your privacy? Mine in a different sector. If you need Lanth, there are plenty of deposits in Odia where bots are not located. I even have them listed in my missions notes.
@Kierky: Seriously. Stop. Right. Here. This is one of your usual whining posts, i.e. nerfing this or nerfing that because you just "feel like it". Think about how hard it is to be a Serco. The smurfs have every single advantage. (We still beat the shit out of them).
@TRS: Yes, Kierky and PaKettle really have no such basis to ban bots on.
@PaKettle: Want your privacy? Mine in a different sector. If you need Lanth, there are plenty of deposits in Odia where bots are not located. I even have them listed in my missions notes.
@Kierky: Seriously. Stop. Right. Here. This is one of your usual whining posts, i.e. nerfing this or nerfing that because you just "feel like it". Think about how hard it is to be a Serco. The smurfs have every single advantage. (We still beat the shit out of them).
Leave the role play in the role play forum, idd. It doesn't help your argument to appear as a cocky kid, and playing the "pity serco" card isn't going to convince anyone to change their minds.
"Your counterargument to everyone else that is saying we should change how logouts work."
Look at the other thread where rin suggested it, a whole bunch of people posted "it's not a problem", because it isn't really a problem.
Look at the other thread where rin suggested it, a whole bunch of people posted "it's not a problem", because it isn't really a problem.
Obviously some people believe there is a problem or there would be no discussion about bots and logging out.
People don't like it, that's why there's discussion. People don't like you and your plugin McLol's and they post tickets and such about that all the time. Doesn't mean it's a legitimate problem that should be addressed by the devs.
they post tickets and such about that all the time.
Riiight.
People don't like it, that's why there's discussion.... Doesn't mean it's a legitimate problem that should be addressed by the devs.
Same could be said about the SVG's turbo drain. You might claim to have evidence that that is indeed a problem, but there has been evidence that this is a problem... that you seem to ignore. Specifically the point that autologging bots prevents them being found, unless you have a few hours to spare on a single bot, essentially making them unable to be found and invincible.
Riiight.
People don't like it, that's why there's discussion.... Doesn't mean it's a legitimate problem that should be addressed by the devs.
Same could be said about the SVG's turbo drain. You might claim to have evidence that that is indeed a problem, but there has been evidence that this is a problem... that you seem to ignore. Specifically the point that autologging bots prevents them being found, unless you have a few hours to spare on a single bot, essentially making them unable to be found and invincible.
"Same could be said about the SVG's turbo drain."
Precisely, and nothing has been done about the SVG's turbo drain even though it contributes to a serious imbalance in the players choosing to fly Serco ships over those choosing Itani ships.
"Specifically the point that autologging bots prevents them being found"
Does it? Because I bet you I could find one within a few cycles. I'm down for a sensible gameplay solution to bots. I'd like to have a set of rules to evict players from stations under circumstances that warrant it for roleplay purposes or where it's nonsensical for them to be allowed to dock (like an Admire itani who's a member of the Itani military docking in Geira O-4).
But that's not on the table here, it's for a different thread.
Precisely, and nothing has been done about the SVG's turbo drain even though it contributes to a serious imbalance in the players choosing to fly Serco ships over those choosing Itani ships.
"Specifically the point that autologging bots prevents them being found"
Does it? Because I bet you I could find one within a few cycles. I'm down for a sensible gameplay solution to bots. I'd like to have a set of rules to evict players from stations under circumstances that warrant it for roleplay purposes or where it's nonsensical for them to be allowed to dock (like an Admire itani who's a member of the Itani military docking in Geira O-4).
But that's not on the table here, it's for a different thread.
Another solution I'd consider acceptable would be making the bots a part of the game. An "observer" that you make through manufacturing or buy for a large amount of credits and can place somewhere, providing information to your guild. There would obviously have to be limits where you could place it, how other people can kill it, etc, but I could see it working. It'd seem a lot less like abuse, and be much fairer to everyone.
Well allow me to clarify -
I dont really give a rats arse whos bots they are - they are still a cheat.
I assumed the bots belonged to RED simply because of thier name - Even if they belonged to tgft then I still say they need to go.
I have not whined about them - I merely asked publicly that thier owner voluntarily remove them.
You will also notice I refrained from suggesting a remedy to the devs..... YET.
Name calling and childish insults wont change the fact that it is a cheat and an abuse of the system.
The choice is yours....
I dont really give a rats arse whos bots they are - they are still a cheat.
I assumed the bots belonged to RED simply because of thier name - Even if they belonged to tgft then I still say they need to go.
I have not whined about them - I merely asked publicly that thier owner voluntarily remove them.
You will also notice I refrained from suggesting a remedy to the devs..... YET.
Name calling and childish insults wont change the fact that it is a cheat and an abuse of the system.
The choice is yours....
So let's see... trident owners would need to jump to one of the couple hundred in-system empty sectors (which are all only one single jump away, barring storms) before logging out, without being followed. That is your only complaint against modifying the logout process?
Meanwhile it would solve several different exploits.
Seems a fair trade to me.
Meanwhile it would solve several different exploits.
Seems a fair trade to me.
No this doesn't just inconvenience trident owners it means you can be killed long after you actually stopped playing and everyone will feel like they have to dock before logging off which takes extra time. If your play is interrupted it's an annoyance. So in that way you're swapping an annoyance of a few people who get logged on for the annoyance of everybody cos they feel obligated to go an extra step when they want to stop playing.
In either case, I don't feel very strongly about it. I wouldn't really care if that was the rule.
In either case, I don't feel very strongly about it. I wouldn't really care if that was the rule.
"everyone will feel like they have to dock before logging off which takes extra time."
No, they just have to jump into an empty sector. That doesn't take any more time to accomplish than the current 10 second countdown.
Or, if we go with the infinite resets approach, they can just log out wherever they want same as now, no risk. There would just be the possibility that somebody might try to stop them via pm. That can be countered by just leaving the sector though, same as the other method. (I'm assuming the countdown-reset only works for same-sector ships - if not, tack that on as another item to change when implementing the infinite-reset method.)
No, they just have to jump into an empty sector. That doesn't take any more time to accomplish than the current 10 second countdown.
Or, if we go with the infinite resets approach, they can just log out wherever they want same as now, no risk. There would just be the possibility that somebody might try to stop them via pm. That can be countered by just leaving the sector though, same as the other method. (I'm assuming the countdown-reset only works for same-sector ships - if not, tack that on as another item to change when implementing the infinite-reset method.)