Watch yourself, Cele. I've taken great pains to not attack you personally - only your arguements - please do the same for me. I'd rather FM -not- lock this thread, and calling me a jerk is asking for a thread lock. As far as me now opppressing the ability of other people to have their own opinion (as well as oppressing the artist's vision, and anyone or anything else I might have oppressed), I don't think so. I'm merely as adamant about the Maud being less special as the other specials as you are adamant that the Maud is superior to the Centaur.

Now, I tried to do a little testing last night. Eldrad was parked outside 9 station and I was 2k away in a Centaur, and I was going to buzz the station (eff engine/fast batt) and see what kind of damage he could do to me and me to him. To me this represented what a pirate would do versus a Centaur in flight. I was going to test other situations as well - camping stations, ambushing as the Cent leaves a wormhole, etc.

Of course, as we were about to go, 0 of the Itani nation, in a valk, attacked me while at a dead stop. Instead of running and dropping mines, which would have been my usual tactic, I fought. When we finished, he was at 80% and I was at 50%, including the damage he caused and the damage I did to myself via poor placement of mines and absolute crap piloting. That's with me doing every stupid thing possible - crap engine, engaging and not running, fighting with my utter lack of skillz, you name it.

I'd say that was a pretty good showing. If I'd fought with a Maud, I'm sure I would have lost by a much greater margin.

I'm really not looking to uberize the Maud. I just want to see it become a little more "special."

"Sheep - I could live with that, but cele would complain about the ports becoming so specialized."

Right after 3.2.0 came out, indeed like within 24 hours of it coming out, I had the pleasure conversation with the devs about specialized ports as a way to simplify balance issues and enforce diverse weapon selection rather than a bunch of 'tri-X's'. Basically, they said 'no, that's not the direction we are taking the game'. So I said, 'Ok.', and started thinking of new suggestions.

There is a lesson there somewhere.

"So, basically, you're talking about speed."

Have it your way. But there is a big difference between two ships having the same theoretical top speed, and two ships making a trip in the same ammount of time. For the record, speed is a function of agility because the same inertia that makes a ship slow to turn also makes it slow to accelerate. In case you weren't aware, acceleration is the derivative of velocity with respect to time. The derivative of acceleration with respect to time, you might ask?

Jerk.

Which coincidently is a word that comes to mind when I get in an argument with someone who completely ignores the opinions are arguements that six or seven people offer him, and thinks that the fact that he still retains his opinion is proof of the validity of his reasoning.

I'm sorry you can't understand why pointing out that the Maud has six engines is just as irrelevant as pointing out that a Whippoorwill has wings. Nothing I can do about that.

I'm sorry you can't understand why I mentioned that the 8 engines on a B-52 being each less powerful than the one engine of a F-16 is relevant. Nothing I can do about that.

(BTW, I never once thought that a spider looked liked it could fly, but I guess that's just me.)

I'm sorry that you don't understand why pointing out that artists in other successful games aren't constrained by real engineering principals might be relevant to the discussion of whether the six engined Marauder should be more agile because, 'Hey, its got six engines'.

'The fact that you warp out of a wormhole at a random location (sometimes 1000m behind the other person) often negates that slight acceleration boost. You're giving the Centaur way less credit than it deserves.'

Maybe, but you'll have to pardon me if I don't change my opinion based on specious arguments like that. Sometimes the random location might negate the slight acceleration boost. Othertimes, it might magnify it. Are you claiming that agile ships are consistantly warped in behind less agile ones? If you aren't, then lets do without the nonsense.

As for your two questions, AFAIK:

1) It's special because no other ship with nearly that level of cargo capacity has near that level of agility. Agility translates to security and faster routes, both of which serve to maximize profits over the long run.

2) Even if the Centaur had 24 cargo, I'd still prefer to do my trading in a Marauder in the majority of cases.

I don't think I'm alone in holding either opinion. Live the Pizzacutter. Love the Pizzacutter.

Since the reset, I'm sure missing mine. :(

maud-Centaur?

Actually no, I see the marauder more something like a medium from before, so if you remember the blue medium from 2.9, now called the atlas.

the marauder beats it in every way, except maybe that the marauder has 2 small in stead of 1 large. Dont forget the marauder can make circles around a prom and can wear it out, it can also withstand 4 swarmpayouts with ease. So in a way it is superior to a fighter "vult".

Atlas
Description: Medium Transport
Weapons: 1 x S-Port & 1 x L-Port
Agility: Low
Length: 14m
Armor: 8000
Cargo: 12

Neutral Marauder
Description: Advanced Transport
Weapons: 3 x S-Port
Agility: Medium
Length: 12m
Armor: 14000
Cargo: 16

As you can see, the marauder rules in every characteristic, with the excep^tion of armament, but that is preference and personal taste, nothig else.

But I have been eperimenting with a prom - marauder and a valk.

valk - marauder : almost always the valk wins
valk - prom: depending on the luck of the prom, and it carrying suns or gausses:
-- gausses: valk wins
-- suns : 40 - 60 chance of prom winning
marauder - prom: marauder kinda can outlast the proms 18k hull and run around it with ease.

So if you want to nerve something, maybe we should talk about nerving the maud to 12k hull, hmmmmmmm :D

PS: I consider the centaur to be a heavy tradeship, very sluggish, but it can trade, but dont expect to be able to flee that easilly from a fighter chasing you.

cheers

PPS: sheep, I hope this explained it a bit ?

Except mauds don't need to defend themselves against Proms. They need to defend themselves against valks. And as you said, the valk almost always wins. And that's only while they're fighting. Imagine how many mauds have fallen while trying to run away.

Magus, euhm the valk is a fighter. Then it is normal that it will win from a tradeship.

Please for once get this point.

My point about the maud-prom was that a tradeship can take down a bomber. I can not see the atlas or the centaur succeed in that. So in my opinion it is a good ship.

the reason why I also took the prom is that it is classified as a transport, so it can be used for transporting cargo if they prefer to have more HP. It has saved me a lot on different occasions.

cheers

Just thought I'd add something to this thread.

I don't like the marauder. I think it looks weird and I can't put dual proxy mines on it. Dual proxy mines are really useful in some situations. ;)

prom is good for when pirates are around, ram them into oblivion!

or mine them into oblivion while ramming them just incase they survive the ra and try to fly away

or shoot them with gauss while ramming with rockets and mining incase they try to escape bwahahahahahaaaaaa

ppl, chil out.

The maud is THE BEST botting ship EVER. Don't expect it to be a the best trader, it is as good as the cent (but in different ways).

Besides would you rather run cargo or blast realy stupid 250 bots?

Heck the maud makes a great bot/trade combo (bot in a 250 sector then run the scrap to a no-bot sector)

I'm on this... I'll dig out the three tests done on this subject:

meh, I could only find one. I do remember that the other two both agreed more or less, however:

http://vendetta.guildsoftware.com/?action=msgboard&thread=2126&page=16

Aha! here's another one (sorry, I couldn't seem to find yours, Eldrad)

http://vendetta.guildsoftware.com/?action=msgboard&thread=2088&page=13

You'll see they both agree that the Maurader and the Hog are basically of the same agility.

renegade:
"So when you are going to annex a tradeship, or anuy ship whatsoever then please compare it with its lesser. "

So then would this mean

maud-Centaur?


so i might add, if we want the maud to be a "speical" ship and so its centaur-maud, we could take a small port off of the centaur and maud, and add a MINE port to the maud.

So more than anything else, we need is a mine port, so we would have Small guns, Large guns, and mines.

I would definitely be against a "mine port" on the Maud. I feel much safer with my tri-gauss Maud and I'll take that over mines any day thank you very much.

Sheep - I could live with that, but cele would complain about the ports becoming so specialized.

> = Cele

> Whether than ranting about it, why don't you make this comparison based on a practical test? Spend some time trading in the Marauder and spend some time trading in the Centaur. I think that sooner or latter you'll come to the realization that the Marauder excells the Centaur to the same degree than the Valk excells the Vulture. I certainly know which one I'd rather be in if I jumped into a sector and found Icarus bearing down on me.

I've killed Icarus in a Centaur. Never in a Maud. Not even close. Does that mean I'm a better fighter than you? No. It means I rely on tactics rather than (edit due to a brain fart) dogfighting ability. So, -rather- than me ranting about it, I'm asking a simple question.

> Did I say anything at all about speed? No, I didn't. I said, 'travel time', and I meant exactly that. The Marauder shaves minutes off your total travel time compared to a Centaur, if it has any engine package other than efficient + fast recharge, and a Centuar with an efficient engine is a death trap. Whereas, you can fly a Marauder with a medium engine and between the higher top speed and the better acceleration get where you are going safer and quicker than you ever could in a Centaur.

So, basically, you're talking about speed.

> A Marauder in the hands of a good pilot is capable of thwarting the attack of an average pilot in a Valk. In a Centaur you have to just dump swarms/lightning mines and hope.

Prox mines, actually. And it's battle tested. Furball did it to me all the time when I was a noob and he was Red, and I did it to Icarus. Granted, I only killed him once, and he kept trying, but after a while, he got tired of dodging (or not not dodging well enough and having to repair), and he began to leave me alone. At least while I was in a ship that could drop mines.

Me: "the agility of a valk or vult (it's got SIX thrusters)..."

> This reminds me of arguing with a new MtG card player that the creature can't fly unless it says 'flying' on the card, and the player responding, 'But its got wings in the picture!'. So what if it has six thrusters? Perhaps they are all quite small. A B-52 has eight engines, but that doesn't mean that the B-52 is faster and more agile than a F-16 with just one, or that any of the B-52's eight engines produces by itself anything like the thrust that the F-16's single engine does.

Well, first I'd point out that most of those creatures that look like they can fly but can't, CAN block creatures with flying (Skyshooter, Wingsnare, Treetop Rangers. some spiders, etc). Second, I'd point out that there are enchantments that give creatures flying. Then I'd smack him upside the head with my case of Alpha and Beta decks. Then I'd point out that this is NOT Magic the Gathering!

> Besides which, its just a model. How heavily do you really want to constrain the artists? Does the ship have to also obey all the laws of engineering as well as look good? With a rule such as that, BTech would not even exist.

Just like we're not playing MtG, we're not playing BTech either. Or any other obscure game reference you can come up with. OMG, I'm repressing the artists! Help, help, they're being oppressed! Please. I asked a simple question, and backed up my opinion based on the "realities" of this game. And my point stands. At best, I think the Marauder is the equal of the Centaur. At worst, I think it's deficient in comparason. I'm not saying that a Centaur would always beat a Maud, nor do I think the opposite. I just still don't see where it is markedly "Special" to the same degree the other specials compare to their lessers.

>> = Arolte
> = Cele

> "Besides which, its just a model. How heavily do you really want to constrain the artists? Does the ship have to also obey all the laws of engineering as well as look good? With a rule such as that, BTech would not even exist."

>> No, but it would be nice to have a little practical realism tossed in there. The Marauder is only marginally faster than the Centaur. The fact that you warp out of a wormhole at a random location (sometimes 1000m behind the other person) often negates that slight acceleration boost. You're giving the Centaur way less credit than it deserves.


Agreed. And giving the Maud, perhaps, more credit than IT deserves.

arolte,

in my book a warthog is less agile then a marauder.

let me use a triple gauss marauder against your sun-advanced gatling warthog, and expect arolte fricasé :D

cheers

EDIT: the only reason why it looks less agile is because the marauder is a lot bigger then the warthog

You know there is an easy way to settle this. Who has that table of accelleration data for all the ships?

Ahhh, are you sure you're using a heavy/heavy combo for both ships?

...

euhm no a med/fast for both ships.

cheers

Just let the maud have 20 cargo slots `nuff said

Pizzacutter?!?

My term!

I love the maud, it's not just a very good trading but also a nice botting ship. It has almost the same agility as the hog, and with 3 gauss, it takes 1-2 shoots and the s18 bot is gone. Try that with a centaur - I usually die when I try to dock the heavy wounded ship because I ram into the station.