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Counter-argument for Pay to Play.
This is regarding Incarnate's "pay to play" post. I'm creating a new thread because the original has been saturated with "I agree, go for it" posts.
I am strongly against pay to play in any form, and especially the implementation that incarnate suggested. Though I see where people are coming from, and I agree that it might help temporarily, it would be extremely bad for vendetta in the long run. Think about it, the only people willing to consistently spend their hard earned money on Vendetta are the people who like the game as it is. Are their suggestions really going to be worth as much as those coming from people who are unsatisfied and want things to be different? Of course not! I would urge people to really think about what you are saying before you jump behind ideas like this. I realize that the developers are in trouble, and that scares a lot of people who have become loyal fans of the game, but Vendetta can only be saved if we step back and think a bit instead of jumping behind every solution proposed.
I am strongly against pay to play in any form, and especially the implementation that incarnate suggested. Though I see where people are coming from, and I agree that it might help temporarily, it would be extremely bad for vendetta in the long run. Think about it, the only people willing to consistently spend their hard earned money on Vendetta are the people who like the game as it is. Are their suggestions really going to be worth as much as those coming from people who are unsatisfied and want things to be different? Of course not! I would urge people to really think about what you are saying before you jump behind ideas like this. I realize that the developers are in trouble, and that scares a lot of people who have become loyal fans of the game, but Vendetta can only be saved if we step back and think a bit instead of jumping behind every solution proposed.
Well if the developers or webmasters run out of money, they will either have to close their doors or start charging users to get access their service in order to break even.
Or they could let players start donating money to the developers. The people who donate money get to see the special features in the game.
Or they could let players start donating money to the developers. The people who donate money get to see the special features in the game.
I am not a paid employee of guild, so I have no stake in this whatsoever.
I write in response to the erroneous characterization that those who give money now are interested in keeping the game as is. I have given money (not a lot. $40 so far I think) and have done so because I am interested in seeing what will become of this experiment. The game engine "test" is one aspect of the experiment, but so is the way in which the devs have treated the users (quite well, relative to other tests I've been involved with. The devs of other tests tend to become very distant and aloof after a time. The level of interaction we have with the devs is almost unheard of.
I direct all of you to read the "News" section carefully. The man is flat broke - at the holidays, no less. Waiting won't improve matters, and you can't spend promises. I know many of you can't afford to give money, and that's totally fine. Please then make an effort to repay guild by being an excellent user. As for me, I will likely continue to donate once in awhile if the test continues. Even if they have to pack it in right after my next donation, they have my permission to use it to buy a round on me. They've given me a lot of entertainment from version 2.4somethingorother on and I owe them that much.
Incarnate was making an opening suggestion. If his suggestion is unacceptable, make some that are. That's what he's asking for.
I write in response to the erroneous characterization that those who give money now are interested in keeping the game as is. I have given money (not a lot. $40 so far I think) and have done so because I am interested in seeing what will become of this experiment. The game engine "test" is one aspect of the experiment, but so is the way in which the devs have treated the users (quite well, relative to other tests I've been involved with. The devs of other tests tend to become very distant and aloof after a time. The level of interaction we have with the devs is almost unheard of.
I direct all of you to read the "News" section carefully. The man is flat broke - at the holidays, no less. Waiting won't improve matters, and you can't spend promises. I know many of you can't afford to give money, and that's totally fine. Please then make an effort to repay guild by being an excellent user. As for me, I will likely continue to donate once in awhile if the test continues. Even if they have to pack it in right after my next donation, they have my permission to use it to buy a round on me. They've given me a lot of entertainment from version 2.4somethingorother on and I owe them that much.
Incarnate was making an opening suggestion. If his suggestion is unacceptable, make some that are. That's what he's asking for.
LET GUILD SURVIVE PLEASE.
If you disagree, PLEASE leave now and/or don't hamper noble attempts to keep this project going.
After all, devs can just pack their stuff and close the shop. Would you prefer this way out of this situation?
Think about what options you are leaving to devs. Do you have better ideas? Voice them, but don't be so negative!!!
If you disagree, PLEASE leave now and/or don't hamper noble attempts to keep this project going.
After all, devs can just pack their stuff and close the shop. Would you prefer this way out of this situation?
Think about what options you are leaving to devs. Do you have better ideas? Voice them, but don't be so negative!!!
I totally agree with the Forum Mod, people who have given money don't neccesarily want to keep the game "as is". I donated $200 because i have played and enjoyed Vendetta longer than any game i have bought (with the exception of EliteII:Frontier on the Amiga 500) ;-) I donated that money because i think the dev team have earned it, i don't expect to have any special priviledges, and i mostly certainly wouldn't want to interfere with their vision of things to come...
You've been Thunderclaw'd
KT
You've been Thunderclaw'd
KT
Tempest: then what do you plan to do when the game is finished? from the devs point of view a one time payment would be financial suicide, there's no way that that will cover the server/additional development costs. This (despite being a test) is intended to be a full comercial venture with multi platform support (that alone has earned the dev crew a gold start from me) and will need to be funded when it's complete.
People who pay do get rewarded, they get rewarded the enjoyment to play the game, the enjoyment to see the game develop, the enjoyment to see how the community changes.
I'm not arguing against giving the developers money. I understand that they are broke, and that if they don't come up with some cash soon Vendetta as we know it will cease to exist. What I'm arguing against is making rash changes born of desperation that affect everyone in order to earn cash quickly. Prostitution of Vendetta is not the answer. If we really want the game to go forward, we as a community should be assisting the developers in finding a publisher who is able to provide adequate funding and is sympathetic to mac and linux users.
Are you against pay-to-play when the game is released? Because no MMO game could survive without continuing income from its customers... it seems you want the free test to continue more than you want the company to survive.
Now that I'm inspired by KT's post, I think when I get my paycheck this week, I'll donate all of it.
Tempest, I would be happy to play, but not because think the game is absolutely amazing as is, but rather because I really want to see it grow more. Also hopefully this would be temporary giving Incarnate enough time to show publishers that there is a large market for this game.
I think you're totally getting the wrong idea of why people would pay.
Do you think the people who would pay to give suggestions if they had none? No it'll be the people who think they've got good ideas that would help the game progress.
One reason I like this idea is that "Suggestions" also often end up as complaining and it'd be great if you had to pay to complain.
But in all seriousness I think that any in game features that are developed should be available to all so that the game will attract as many players as possible which in turn increases the games appeal to publishers.
I think you're totally getting the wrong idea of why people would pay.
Do you think the people who would pay to give suggestions if they had none? No it'll be the people who think they've got good ideas that would help the game progress.
One reason I like this idea is that "Suggestions" also often end up as complaining and it'd be great if you had to pay to complain.
But in all seriousness I think that any in game features that are developed should be available to all so that the game will attract as many players as possible which in turn increases the games appeal to publishers.
I'm against mandatory pay to play, but giving a few bonus features to sponsors seems like a great idea.
I am certainly not against pay to play for the final version. I realize that it requires a constant inflow of money to sustain a MMO game in a satisfactory manner. I would happily pay for a finished game that was enjoyable to play, if the price were reasonable. Vendetta however is not anywhere close to finished, and the gameplay itself is not particularly great right now. The reason I play Vendetta is to offer my input and comments, in the hope that Vendetta will one day be a deeper, more enjoyable game. I'm not going to pay for that though, especially given how uncertain Vendetta's future is anymore. I know that there are others who feel this way as well. I don't mean to come across as greedy or stingy, but I'm afraid of what mandatory fees, even just for certain features of the game, would do to the community.
Tempest, the point you're missing is that if the devs don't get a cash inflow *NOW* there *IS NO* future... For $10 or even $20 a month, I have NO problems helping to make sure there *IS* a future. If you TRUELY like the game, or you TRUELY like the vision of vendetta then pay.
Do I PERSONALLY like the gameplay as it is? NO. Do I like how people can go on player killing/newb killing streaks and not get punished by the game itself? No. Do I envision the devs taking care of this. GOD YES. Am I willing to pay them so that they have to TIME to implement this? GOD YES.
Come on folks... $10 - $20 a month .. that's one maybe two hours at McDonalds. For those of you under 18.. time to learn the fine art of making a budget. :)
*Edit*
One thing I forgot to add, if you don't feel that you can or want to pay per month right now, please understand that I PERSONALLY don't think you are a bad person or evil or whatever. IE I am NOT personally passing judgement on anyone.
Do I PERSONALLY like the gameplay as it is? NO. Do I like how people can go on player killing/newb killing streaks and not get punished by the game itself? No. Do I envision the devs taking care of this. GOD YES. Am I willing to pay them so that they have to TIME to implement this? GOD YES.
Come on folks... $10 - $20 a month .. that's one maybe two hours at McDonalds. For those of you under 18.. time to learn the fine art of making a budget. :)
*Edit*
One thing I forgot to add, if you don't feel that you can or want to pay per month right now, please understand that I PERSONALLY don't think you are a bad person or evil or whatever. IE I am NOT personally passing judgement on anyone.
...let me try a different approach. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there are three types of people who play vendetta (I know thats a gross over simplification, but if you look at http://www.starfreeze.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=59 you'll find it's essentially true).
Type A are the fanatics, hardcore gamers, staunch enthusiasts or whatever else you want to call them. These players devote every spare moment of their time to the game, and to them the loss of Vendetta would be like the end of the world.
Type B are like type A, though a bit less serious. They play vendetta every day, but it's not their only form of entertainment. To them, the loss of the game would be sad, but not unbearable. They would move on eventually.
Type C, to which I belong, are the casual players. We spend maybe three or four hours a week tops in-game. We enjoy Vendetta, but only in small doses. We would be upset if Vendetta went away, but would quickly move on to other things and not give this game another moment's thought.
Now, which type of player is the most important to the community? That's tough, because all three contribute, and in many cases the players who spend less time in-game do more outside. Also, players of all types can spread the word, further increasing their value. Celkan/Verdandi, who I would consider a type A/B player and a very active participant in the community, found out about this game from me, and I'm sure there are other players in similar situations. When we get to the issue of fees however, it becomes difficult because type C, and perhaps even type B players who don't care as much if Vendetta lives or dies are going to be excluded from certain activities which would otherwise benefit from their presence, because they are unwilling to spend money on Vendetta. It's not an issue of wealth or generosity, it's an issue of how much value we currently place on the game.
Type A are the fanatics, hardcore gamers, staunch enthusiasts or whatever else you want to call them. These players devote every spare moment of their time to the game, and to them the loss of Vendetta would be like the end of the world.
Type B are like type A, though a bit less serious. They play vendetta every day, but it's not their only form of entertainment. To them, the loss of the game would be sad, but not unbearable. They would move on eventually.
Type C, to which I belong, are the casual players. We spend maybe three or four hours a week tops in-game. We enjoy Vendetta, but only in small doses. We would be upset if Vendetta went away, but would quickly move on to other things and not give this game another moment's thought.
Now, which type of player is the most important to the community? That's tough, because all three contribute, and in many cases the players who spend less time in-game do more outside. Also, players of all types can spread the word, further increasing their value. Celkan/Verdandi, who I would consider a type A/B player and a very active participant in the community, found out about this game from me, and I'm sure there are other players in similar situations. When we get to the issue of fees however, it becomes difficult because type C, and perhaps even type B players who don't care as much if Vendetta lives or dies are going to be excluded from certain activities which would otherwise benefit from their presence, because they are unwilling to spend money on Vendetta. It's not an issue of wealth or generosity, it's an issue of how much value we currently place on the game.
*Thank you* for your most accurate deescription of my person. :P
Pay to play probably won't work in vendetta's current universe because certain players seem to want to drive new people away and the core fanbase isn't enough for the long term. Either attitudes will have to change or moderation will have to become a priority.
I'm not sure whether I would pay for vendetta as it is because on one hand it's a great game, has a huge potential and I'd very much like to see how it turns out but on the other hand the ingame community is so awful that I want to delete vendetta, burn my hard drive, throw it out the window and drop a piano on it.
However, we must consider it from everyones point of view not just the core fanbase. Will a newb think "Oh yeah, I'd like to pay for that." or will they think "I won't ever play that game again." All the hostility, griefing and bullying WILL have to stop!
Just an opinion don't go all zealoty on me.
I'm not sure whether I would pay for vendetta as it is because on one hand it's a great game, has a huge potential and I'd very much like to see how it turns out but on the other hand the ingame community is so awful that I want to delete vendetta, burn my hard drive, throw it out the window and drop a piano on it.
However, we must consider it from everyones point of view not just the core fanbase. Will a newb think "Oh yeah, I'd like to pay for that." or will they think "I won't ever play that game again." All the hostility, griefing and bullying WILL have to stop!
Just an opinion don't go all zealoty on me.
I was under the impression that the pay-to-play would last as long as it took for Guild to either find a publisher or decide that they NEVER would find a publisher. In either case, they would not need to charge us for testing anymore. The publicity they get from people now is good, but once they have a regular beta test going and some corporate backing, the REAL publicity can begin.
Or, to put it another way: Would you rather that someone played Vendetta now, got griefed by the hundreds of griefers and decided that it sucked, or got scared off by the pay-to-play and then tried it out in an open beta a few years down the line?
Or, to put it another way: Would you rather that someone played Vendetta now, got griefed by the hundreds of griefers and decided that it sucked, or got scared off by the pay-to-play and then tried it out in an open beta a few years down the line?
As much as I am against Pay to Play, I find it necessary in this situation. The creators of this game have it hard, it's not like they are using their extra money for this game, they are using their life money on this game, and many use it. I feel that a partial system of P2P is almost NECESSARY at this time.
There are other MMORPGs who survives even without Pay to Play, but giving some "cosmetical" bonus to paying players: now I'm thinking about Furcadia: http://www.furcadia.com/
I know this is a totally different kind of game, but it has a HUGE players base and it's alive after may years. And it's still in Alpha/Beta stage too!!!
I think giving the ability to purchase some special ships to paying members whould be the best idea for Vendetta and it could be done NOW. This ships could be special versions of the Nation ship, with only estetical differences: I think it should be enough for now.
I know this is a totally different kind of game, but it has a HUGE players base and it's alive after may years. And it's still in Alpha/Beta stage too!!!
I think giving the ability to purchase some special ships to paying members whould be the best idea for Vendetta and it could be done NOW. This ships could be special versions of the Nation ship, with only estetical differences: I think it should be enough for now.