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I have a pretty long view on this and have watched Incarnate make many savvy choices over the years. He knows that a Steam launch is an opportunity that only comes once. He has watched carefully as others launch, he is well connected with other companies that have launched, and I trust him to know what he's doing here. I think that some people are measuring success with their own yardstick. That VO, still an unsexy genre in the marketplace, continues to develop is a good measure of success in my book.
Maybe one day they'll be able to sell out to EA, and everything will be perfect, right?
(@JJ, I'm glad I found a hammer large enough to finally get your attention. It's really just a HAC with a handle.)
Maybe one day they'll be able to sell out to EA, and everything will be perfect, right?
(@JJ, I'm glad I found a hammer large enough to finally get your attention. It's really just a HAC with a handle.)
I've seen the crappiest of Candy Crush type games with 1 developer on steam.
Yes. They aren't making any money. Feel free to read this article.
It's quite trivial to "release on Steam", it's much harder to really generate a lot of buzz and make meaningful revenue on Steam, sufficient to offset your costs (in our case, on-going costs). Otherwise, your title just kind of "flops", which is what I referenced when I posted about Steam a few weeks ago.
My friend Michael burned a lot of cash and had a lot of challenges before ultimately seeing success from EverSpace.
Anyway, Jordan, what do you care when we release on Steam? I would understand if it were some long-awaited gameplay feature, but Steam itself isn't a panacea for all game woes. I'm sorry to hear your friends have moved on, but there are other people playing, and Steam isn't magically going to bring your friends back to the game. Nor would it have magically kept them around.
My primary job is keeping the company solvent. We're actually doing reasonably well in that regard. We've also made a ton of improvements to the game this year, but most of the work hasn't been released or even announced yet (I'm not getting into why at this time). But while making these improvements, I'm also trying to buffer up enough cash to actually be able to have a marketing budget when we do launch on Steam.
So, anyway, yes Steam is still going to happen, it's a very big focus for us. Sure, I wish it had happened years ago. No, I'm not sure it would have been a mind-blowing change to our fortunes regardless (unless it had been way back at the beginning). I don't claim to be the Oracle of Steam or have the best possible strategy for pursuing it.. but I do have a strategy, and I'm more informed about the business realities than most, and have spent a lot of time talking to other developers.. and Valve themselves, as recently as a couple of months ago.
In closing, if all you have to share is pessimistic angst, feel free to not post it on our forums. There are lots of other games you can go play.
Yes. They aren't making any money. Feel free to read this article.
It's quite trivial to "release on Steam", it's much harder to really generate a lot of buzz and make meaningful revenue on Steam, sufficient to offset your costs (in our case, on-going costs). Otherwise, your title just kind of "flops", which is what I referenced when I posted about Steam a few weeks ago.
My friend Michael burned a lot of cash and had a lot of challenges before ultimately seeing success from EverSpace.
Anyway, Jordan, what do you care when we release on Steam? I would understand if it were some long-awaited gameplay feature, but Steam itself isn't a panacea for all game woes. I'm sorry to hear your friends have moved on, but there are other people playing, and Steam isn't magically going to bring your friends back to the game. Nor would it have magically kept them around.
My primary job is keeping the company solvent. We're actually doing reasonably well in that regard. We've also made a ton of improvements to the game this year, but most of the work hasn't been released or even announced yet (I'm not getting into why at this time). But while making these improvements, I'm also trying to buffer up enough cash to actually be able to have a marketing budget when we do launch on Steam.
So, anyway, yes Steam is still going to happen, it's a very big focus for us. Sure, I wish it had happened years ago. No, I'm not sure it would have been a mind-blowing change to our fortunes regardless (unless it had been way back at the beginning). I don't claim to be the Oracle of Steam or have the best possible strategy for pursuing it.. but I do have a strategy, and I'm more informed about the business realities than most, and have spent a lot of time talking to other developers.. and Valve themselves, as recently as a couple of months ago.
In closing, if all you have to share is pessimistic angst, feel free to not post it on our forums. There are lots of other games you can go play.
"In closing, if all you have to share is pessimistic angst, feel free to not post it on our forums. There are lots of other games you can go play."
You heard him lads message me on discord to join my Eve corporation, we have five players which is five more then you will ever see in B-8.
You heard him lads message me on discord to join my Eve corporation, we have five players which is five more then you will ever see in B-8.
"Maybe one day they'll be able to sell out to EA, and everything will be perfect, right?"
LOLE!!!!!!! If your idea of perfect is having to pay 99c IRL to undock and 3$ to switch ship colors,then yea..perfect.
Just saying.
LOLE!!!!!!! If your idea of perfect is having to pay 99c IRL to undock and 3$ to switch ship colors,then yea..perfect.
Just saying.
I think you missed the point. EA is generally blamed for killing many promising titles over the years. I had friends there who were quite embarrassed. We're fortunate that an independent has kept the space combat MMO torch burning.
Just saying.
Just saying.
Very good points incarnate.
I'm glad to hear that it is a focus, and it sounds like you're closer, but can you really blame long time players for being a little pissed? Yah, we could "go play a different game", and I'm pretty sure all of us do, but this game has always had so much potential, I just want to see it tapped. And it wasn't just "my friends" that left. It was friends, enemies, entire guilds and personalities. There is of course still players but not even close to how many there were, and even then we felt that we were struggling with numbers. I'm not trying to just attack you, I want GS to succeed. It just doesn't look like that when I log in.
I would think someone whos job it is to keep a company solvent would plan for worst-case scenarios, it can be more effective than trying to think "optimistically".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_pessimism
Though you are 100% correct Incarnate, even if we saw a MASSIVE spike in PC players from Steam(Which wouldn't take much a few dozen pilots at best would make VO look like it has 12x traffic), they wouldn't stick around long enough to make the "impact" you expect, not how the game is as it stands.
The "mind-blowing changes" you describe will not come from marketing on Steam, but the unpopular polishing of very public flaws in the game.
All it takes is word of mouth and you can have everything you desire, but why should we invest our time to begin with giving you free advertisement if you will not invest your time(s)(Hi ray) in making the game worth playing? It's not like we're asking for groundbreaking technological advances in code and hardware or for you to solve the energy crisis. The changes required are trivial at best, but needed for such a long time that vast swaths of the community have been completely disenfranchised.
Oh, and it's not a good idea for someone who is selling something to tell people not to buy it, they may listen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_pessimism
Though you are 100% correct Incarnate, even if we saw a MASSIVE spike in PC players from Steam(Which wouldn't take much a few dozen pilots at best would make VO look like it has 12x traffic), they wouldn't stick around long enough to make the "impact" you expect, not how the game is as it stands.
The "mind-blowing changes" you describe will not come from marketing on Steam, but the unpopular polishing of very public flaws in the game.
All it takes is word of mouth and you can have everything you desire, but why should we invest our time to begin with giving you free advertisement if you will not invest your time(s)(Hi ray) in making the game worth playing? It's not like we're asking for groundbreaking technological advances in code and hardware or for you to solve the energy crisis. The changes required are trivial at best, but needed for such a long time that vast swaths of the community have been completely disenfranchised.
Oh, and it's not a good idea for someone who is selling something to tell people not to buy it, they may listen.
The changes required are trivial at best
I think that's being either disingenuous or ignorant. It should be clear to everyone that *any* change that appears trivial to us requires much more work than we could possibly conceive. Every time something *trival* has been changed it has taken way longer than any of us expected, and came along with various unintended consequences and unforeseen effects to gameplay that need to be worked out over time.
I get the sentiment, and certainly have been there myself, but raging about the game development "because you care about it's potential" is futile. Save your breath, would be my advice.
I think that's being either disingenuous or ignorant. It should be clear to everyone that *any* change that appears trivial to us requires much more work than we could possibly conceive. Every time something *trival* has been changed it has taken way longer than any of us expected, and came along with various unintended consequences and unforeseen effects to gameplay that need to be worked out over time.
I get the sentiment, and certainly have been there myself, but raging about the game development "because you care about it's potential" is futile. Save your breath, would be my advice.
"Though you are 100% correct Incarnate, even if we saw a MASSIVE spike in PC players from Steam(Which wouldn't take much a few dozen pilots at best would make VO look like it has 12x traffic), they wouldn't stick around long enough to make the "impact" you expect, not how the game is as it stands.
The "mind-blowing changes" you describe will not come from marketing on Steam, but the unpopular polishing of very public flaws in the game."
I'm not sure you understood. That's what Incarnate has been telling us. That's exactly why VO is not on Steam right now - it would be an opportunity wasted.
I also think you misread the part about "mind blowing changes" and about being solvent, because you misattributed those statements to something else.
The "mind-blowing changes" you describe will not come from marketing on Steam, but the unpopular polishing of very public flaws in the game."
I'm not sure you understood. That's what Incarnate has been telling us. That's exactly why VO is not on Steam right now - it would be an opportunity wasted.
I also think you misread the part about "mind blowing changes" and about being solvent, because you misattributed those statements to something else.
I didn't misread anything, I am in agreement that Steam would be a waste if it were to launch at the moment of this post.
@Greenwall
Hard to say what the required changes would be, there are many that are "low-hanging fruit" such as the key system. Though that's not all were talking about here, we're talking about bugs too, bugs that have been ignored for too long because "too much work/too much time" when in reality they should be near the top of that list and be completed as soon as possible so we can begin repairing the damage as players and leave the developers/administrators do what they need to do.
@Greenwall
Hard to say what the required changes would be, there are many that are "low-hanging fruit" such as the key system. Though that's not all were talking about here, we're talking about bugs too, bugs that have been ignored for too long because "too much work/too much time" when in reality they should be near the top of that list and be completed as soon as possible so we can begin repairing the damage as players and leave the developers/administrators do what they need to do.
he never told anyone not to buy the game, I don't know why you and yer little buddy Jordy over there constantly attack the devs and mods of the game, your arguments have now lay waste and thus you are fighting still over the fact of vo being on steam despite the fact that everyone has said, VO isn't ready for steam at this time, keep yer shorties on, hold yer horses, put them big boi pants on. Put your seatbelt on and enjoy the ride that VO has allowed everyone of us to embark on, you will never reach your destination if you keep asking "are we there yet".
The two active devs of this game make hundreds of times more content compared to a large company, proportionally scaled for work done per dev/employee.
Tripod, I am not attacking anyone. You also did not read Incarnate's or my own posts, clearly.
If I was attacking someone personally, believe me the posts would not exist for very long.
The question we are asking is "You know that this road ends in a cliff right?"
If I was attacking someone personally, believe me the posts would not exist for very long.
The question we are asking is "You know that this road ends in a cliff right?"
I'm glad to hear that it is a focus, and it sounds like you're closer, but can you really blame long time players for being a little pissed?
No, I certainly understand. It's just that.. while I empathize, the time wasted responding to angsty forum posts is just not offset by enough substantive value to make it worthwhile. People are going to be pissed, they're going to be bitter, and I'm already doing the best I can.
I realized, two years ago, that we had about ~5 vocal, highly negative players who were, at that point, occupying about 50% of my time.. continuously (tickets, threads, drama, bullshit). For months. 50%! That's like 80 hours a month! Assuming I only worked 40 hour weeks. It was insane. You wonder why things take so long..
So, since then, I have made an effort to compress my activity on here, curtail the amount that ticket-bullshit drags on, and try to focus it where it's more useful to the game and community as a whole.
To sum up: I get where you're coming from, I don't disclaim my own responsibility.. it's entirely likely that I've screwed up at all kinds of things (I'm aware of plenty of them). And, at the same time, I challenge anyone else to do better in the circumstances. The situation is what it is, and I'm focused on the future, because that's the only useful place to look at this time.
There is of course still players but not even close to how many there were, and even then we felt that we were struggling with numbers.
This is factually inaccurate, according to all the data we have. And that's the thing. Your friends have gone, the userbase has changed, but it hasn't necessarily dropped off. You expect people to be in B8, or do what you want, their behaviours have definitely shifted since the influx of mobile, but there's still a strong number of persistent, recurring players.
And again, I'm already doing what I can to increase that, and to reach out to previous players..
All it takes is word of mouth and you can have everything you desire, but why should we invest our time to begin with giving you free advertisement if you will not invest your time(s)(Hi ray) in making the game worth playing?
Mi5, you have this tendency to get so caught up in your self-righteous frustration that you become convinced you're the only person who can see clearly. As a result, you end up ranting at me about stuff that's either stunningly obvious (and already well-known), or where you've become so confused about causality and relative options, and so convinced of the superiority of your perspective, that you end up advocating for things that aren't even real (like the "existing microtransaction system"), or don't make much sense.
In this case, word-of-mouth advertising from our existing player base will not be sufficient to drive the numbers that I'm going to need on Steam. So, no, that isn't a solution in and of itself, although it's certainly of benefit.
Yes, we need to fix a lot of problems and improve the game. DUH. I've said as much in every freakin' post I've made on the subject. I also just wrote, in my last post on this thread, that we've been doing a tremendous amount of work this year, most of which hasn't seen the light of day (been released, or even announced). I would say only 30% of the development work from this year has been made public, and we've been busting our asses.
If you really want to make sure to draw attention to your concerns, maybe make a top-10 list of the 10 things you most-wish were fixed in VO? That's useful. Other people could weigh in with their lists. We've done those kinds of threads in the past, but a current version would still be interesting. And leave the angst out of it. Also, just link to the other threads on the other topics (with a name/title), rather than writing 10 different topics in one post.
I'm genuinely sorry that you're so frustrated, and that our users get so frustrated and disillusioned in general. On the other hand, I've become so opposed to breaking any more promises to you guys, that I hardly talk about future development at all anymore! Which also sucks, because you're under the impression that nothing is happening. But I'm tired of getting slammed about release dates, and the company is too small and variable for me to make prognosticate development timelines very effectively.
Stuff Is Moving Ahead. Yes, We Know The Game Should Be Improved. Yes, We Should Ship On Steam! Great!
I don't know what else to tell people in the meantime, other than: the game (and development) is what it is, you have to take it or leave it. I care about you guys, and how you feel.. I'm still here in large part because of you. But you have to choose to believe what I have to say.. or not. I don't have much else to offer at this time.
No, I certainly understand. It's just that.. while I empathize, the time wasted responding to angsty forum posts is just not offset by enough substantive value to make it worthwhile. People are going to be pissed, they're going to be bitter, and I'm already doing the best I can.
I realized, two years ago, that we had about ~5 vocal, highly negative players who were, at that point, occupying about 50% of my time.. continuously (tickets, threads, drama, bullshit). For months. 50%! That's like 80 hours a month! Assuming I only worked 40 hour weeks. It was insane. You wonder why things take so long..
So, since then, I have made an effort to compress my activity on here, curtail the amount that ticket-bullshit drags on, and try to focus it where it's more useful to the game and community as a whole.
To sum up: I get where you're coming from, I don't disclaim my own responsibility.. it's entirely likely that I've screwed up at all kinds of things (I'm aware of plenty of them). And, at the same time, I challenge anyone else to do better in the circumstances. The situation is what it is, and I'm focused on the future, because that's the only useful place to look at this time.
There is of course still players but not even close to how many there were, and even then we felt that we were struggling with numbers.
This is factually inaccurate, according to all the data we have. And that's the thing. Your friends have gone, the userbase has changed, but it hasn't necessarily dropped off. You expect people to be in B8, or do what you want, their behaviours have definitely shifted since the influx of mobile, but there's still a strong number of persistent, recurring players.
And again, I'm already doing what I can to increase that, and to reach out to previous players..
All it takes is word of mouth and you can have everything you desire, but why should we invest our time to begin with giving you free advertisement if you will not invest your time(s)(Hi ray) in making the game worth playing?
Mi5, you have this tendency to get so caught up in your self-righteous frustration that you become convinced you're the only person who can see clearly. As a result, you end up ranting at me about stuff that's either stunningly obvious (and already well-known), or where you've become so confused about causality and relative options, and so convinced of the superiority of your perspective, that you end up advocating for things that aren't even real (like the "existing microtransaction system"), or don't make much sense.
In this case, word-of-mouth advertising from our existing player base will not be sufficient to drive the numbers that I'm going to need on Steam. So, no, that isn't a solution in and of itself, although it's certainly of benefit.
Yes, we need to fix a lot of problems and improve the game. DUH. I've said as much in every freakin' post I've made on the subject. I also just wrote, in my last post on this thread, that we've been doing a tremendous amount of work this year, most of which hasn't seen the light of day (been released, or even announced). I would say only 30% of the development work from this year has been made public, and we've been busting our asses.
If you really want to make sure to draw attention to your concerns, maybe make a top-10 list of the 10 things you most-wish were fixed in VO? That's useful. Other people could weigh in with their lists. We've done those kinds of threads in the past, but a current version would still be interesting. And leave the angst out of it. Also, just link to the other threads on the other topics (with a name/title), rather than writing 10 different topics in one post.
I'm genuinely sorry that you're so frustrated, and that our users get so frustrated and disillusioned in general. On the other hand, I've become so opposed to breaking any more promises to you guys, that I hardly talk about future development at all anymore! Which also sucks, because you're under the impression that nothing is happening. But I'm tired of getting slammed about release dates, and the company is too small and variable for me to make prognosticate development timelines very effectively.
Stuff Is Moving Ahead. Yes, We Know The Game Should Be Improved. Yes, We Should Ship On Steam! Great!
I don't know what else to tell people in the meantime, other than: the game (and development) is what it is, you have to take it or leave it. I care about you guys, and how you feel.. I'm still here in large part because of you. But you have to choose to believe what I have to say.. or not. I don't have much else to offer at this time.
If an existing microtransaction system does not exist what is - https://www.vendetta-online.com/x/livery and Update 1.8.305 - https://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/29182
Cross-posting my response from the last thread response to you, that you apparently didn't read:
It only exists on iOS and Android, where there are built in Operating System mechanics to support it. We don't have a system built around our own finance mechanisms for other platforms, and that is not a small thing for us to build.
But, let's not get off-topic here..
It only exists on iOS and Android, where there are built in Operating System mechanics to support it. We don't have a system built around our own finance mechanisms for other platforms, and that is not a small thing for us to build.
But, let's not get off-topic here..
"At what point do we just cede the game to a vocal minority operating under emotion instead of logic?"
Okay, I'm just starting to delete Mi5's posts at this point, because he can't seem to avoid being pedantic, and dragging things off-topic.
I think this thread has been about as "helpful" as it can be.
- I do care about what players want, and making good on promises, but running an indie game studio can be kind of a shit-show. See the article I linked earlier.
- I am trying to ship on Steam, but timing is important, and there are a lot of moving parts to make a Steam launch successful. You can't just "ship on Steam!". Again, see the article above.
- We are also working very hard to improve the game.. radically, even. But I haven't talked about it recently, because I've grown to so strongly dislike being accused of over-promising and under-delivering. So, now everything's a friggin' secret, which is terrible for marketing, but hey.. you'll all be surprised! Woo!
As I said, the game is what it is, I understand people being unhappy, but I can't help you with that right now. I have no more time left to discuss it.
I think this thread has been about as "helpful" as it can be.
- I do care about what players want, and making good on promises, but running an indie game studio can be kind of a shit-show. See the article I linked earlier.
- I am trying to ship on Steam, but timing is important, and there are a lot of moving parts to make a Steam launch successful. You can't just "ship on Steam!". Again, see the article above.
- We are also working very hard to improve the game.. radically, even. But I haven't talked about it recently, because I've grown to so strongly dislike being accused of over-promising and under-delivering. So, now everything's a friggin' secret, which is terrible for marketing, but hey.. you'll all be surprised! Woo!
As I said, the game is what it is, I understand people being unhappy, but I can't help you with that right now. I have no more time left to discuss it.