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Capital ships: Why bigger isnt always better.

Oct 05, 2022 HunPredator link
Its not really a suggestion, just a question to the devs/players.

As far as I know, most players want big and shiny monsters in their hands, and its completely fine. However, development wise... Its a huge mess of issues, also requires rework of the universe as a whole, what slows their implementation down significantly.
The other thing is, that even if we will see them added, it will take at least a year, until we will see someone flying them.
Also, in my opinion very few people will actually attempt to manufacture one, as honestly, for some even a trident is a massive undertaking (what it is, even with a goliath). Only larger guilds with lots of leftover resources, manpower, or players with enough time/dedication will go and try to gather, haul and manufacture the sheer amount of components one of those big ships will require (Connie, HAC, and the most notable, the Capella).

So my point is, why not go the opposite?
At least until stations get reworked?
Why not have like 2-3 more goli-sized ships, in the 90-160 meter range, what more players will actually make due to their comparably low material cost, instead of one big, slow and "terribly hard to fly" chunk of metal, what takes an insane amount of time to make?

Big ships have lots of problems, the biggest are:

1. Big ships are a hassle to make proper textures for. Their sheer size requires high-detail and resolution assets, what has a big impact both on the game size and stability. Even if devs implement the ones we have now, they have very buggy hitboxes (you can easily force yourself through a capella, what is quite weird), what creates a lot of problems

2. The ENTIRE UNIVERSE we know have to be completely reworked, before they can be added, as flying them would be an utter pain and suffering in the sectors full of asteroids, like the odia wormholes, or any station sector with lots of asteroids. It will be very hard to maneuver without hitting every single asteroid you see.
Or just generally getting wedged/stuck between asteroids while turning, what isnt hard to do, considering a Capella is like 750 meters long (from my measurements in game).

3. However cool these ships are, they will be incredibly boring to fly. Their slow acceleration, turning and strafing will make these ships an incredibly long time to get from A to B (if anyone did a Capella escort, knows what I mean), just because even aligning to a jump point will be challenging, while also having to avoid asteroids, or other ships. And then just reaching a decent cruise speed will take long, not even talking about stopping them, what even when slamming the brakes will take an absurd amount of time, unless if they will have some stupidly high amount of thrust. And slamming a 700 meter long chunk of metal at full speed into anything will be... bad. And very messy.

4. Who the hell will be crazy enough to make one solo? I mean... not a lot of guys as far as I know. These ships are meant to be group projects, but I am sure some crazy dude will try to make one solo (what should be possible, in my opinion).

5. Not many players would have a use for them. With the exception of hardcore manuers/traders, it would be completely piontless to build them for anything. As I dont think everyone will build stations with them, either (thats a viable role for them, as big chonky haulers, with some combat capability). Maybe larger guilds will have 2-3 of them, or none, as some will prefer many tridents over one large ship.
I am not sure I am right in this, but tell me if I am not.

So after this, I will give the positives of small ships, like a goliath:

1. Making them takes less time. Their models are less buggy, and can be made to look very good with low-res textures, as they are smaller so not requires lots of small details. Goliaths are a good example. It has a relatively simple texturing, but it looks very good. I dont think they are high resolution at all. In my guess you can make two ships like these in the time it takes to make one very big ship.

2. Require zero rework of the universe pretty much. Zero. They can fit in current capitols just fine, even a trident can, and much easier to fly them in tight sectors (you can squeeze them into very small spaces, like in between broken up chunks of big rocks). Also, NPCs can handle them well enough, while i seen Capellas stuck on each other (it was painful to look at), what isnt good.

3. I did not tell about this above, but balancing small caphips is just easier. Large ships as they are would be incredibly broken in player hands, and nerfing them to the ground would make them less attractive. While ships like goliaths and tridents are very well balanced, for me at least. They are just fine. While balancing big monsters is a hassle to not be utter broken, and still usable for everything, other than hauling (what most people will use these for I think).

4. Just compare nowdays how many newer players are flying a goliath over a trident. Most players (including myself) are completely fine flying a goli, as its more than enough for what they do with them. You can do botting/hauling just fine, also r/r and just l fly around. Even though I have both ships, If someone would ask me, I would rather build two or three goli-sized ships for my main account and alt, rather than making one big ship for one of them, just a better use of resources. I like my trident but I dont have a use for it nowdays. Thats it. Maybe I am wrong about this point, tell me if I am.

5. Variety never hurts. There is no "smaller capship than a trident" exists other than a goliath. While there is lot of variety from big ships. Their manufacturing can be very different from each other, but requiring no or very little of exceptionally hard to get stuff (like sammic). Differences can be from requiring different type of optical sensors/computers, to something like one needing 2 engines, one more or less EHA, to mix it up a bit. Or even one just requiring 50 guardian cores over 100 artemis ones.

I will end all this by saying that I am not against adding big ships, just saying what I see viable nowdays more. I just prefer many small ships over one big one. I hope more of them will get addes soon, alongside the already existing and loved Goliath.
Also, no ship, no matter how big, should not make their smaller counterparts completely useless or obsolete.
It should be a matter of player preference of what they make.
If you need something for lots of hauling, or just want a nice and chonky ship, and like challenging yourself, and has at least a Trident, build a Capella.
If you just need a general use capship what you can build rather quickly in a goliath (or as a newbie in an XC), and dont want a Trident because even that is too much for you (or just to have something other than a goliath to fly around with), to do mining, farming stuff, hauling in moderate quantities, just go for something smaller than a Trident.
Thats it.
Oct 05, 2022 flying squirrle link
The plan is to add several variations of the current ships based on the different hives, so the millinar hives are what we have. Medium shields, health, and maneuverability. Serco will have more health, less shields, less maneuverability. Itan has more shields and maneuverability. And while thats not adding more types of ships it does add 4 more capital ships of a smaller scale with different stats. So it is kinda what you were asking for basicly. Only still haveing the limits of 1 goli/1dent and keeps the big people from haveing 100 capitols to haul stuff with, lol.
Oct 06, 2022 HunPredator link
I did not say that I am against goli variants, I want to see them so bad. Just had an idea about having different capships as well other than a goliath.
I did not mention this above, but i dont think you should be able to own more than 3 or 4 capships, as that obviously has lots of problems in itself. If you dont need your current goli, go salvage it (you can do that already), and build the one you need more, or just build a completely new ship if we get to see them.
This should be applied to tridents as well.
Oct 06, 2022 Anewold link
Or just make both ;p
Oct 06, 2022 Whistler link
I think you may have made some incorrect assumptions about the developer's priorities and plans.

"Its not really a suggestion, just a question to the devs/players."
Oct 06, 2022 HunPredator link
Its not really me telling the devs what to do. Its just me sharing my opinions. Thats it.
Oct 07, 2022 incarnate link
While I responded to some general questions about gigantic objects recently, I don't think I said anything to imply that super-massive capital ships were a top priority?

We do intend to have more types of capships. But, we also need capships to actually work properly, and we've changed a lot of those "unseen mechanics" behind the scenes, this year. Changes like making inventories transfer more efficiently between sectors, and stopping capships from occasionally getting "stuck" or "lost", etc.

The use-cases and value of capships are also evolving, as we roll out features, which will also influence the types and configurations of potential variants. It's a lot easier to drive on-going design when the content (capships) has greater obvious relevance in the universe, and isn't just kind of a show-off "boasting factor" item.

Anyway, while there are a number of confused technical assumptions in the OP, I don't think anyone is fundamentally disagreeing with the idea that "more capship variety, including smaller types, would be cool".
Oct 07, 2022 HunPredator link
I wrote the post late night, so it ended up being a confusing mess a bit
I think we should have more small ships, than even big ones
Like... a lot more
As most players not going to invest in a Capella anyway
I would be completely fine with goli sized ships, or bigger, but somewhere in between it and a dent, with half the material cost.

And also, what you think of the idea of expanding cargo load/unload from ship to capship, to cargo transfer in between docked ships? Mentioned in this suggestion i made recently?

Also Incarnate, bit unrelated, but what are requirements/limits of ship models by players, for to be added to the game?
I mean, like texture resolutions, detail, polygon count, etc?
Just want to know todays "standards" if I decide to learn Blender 3D and make some proper models
Oct 08, 2022 Luxen link
Oct 08, 2022 HunPredator link
Yep I know that post, I did read it once.
It will be several years until I can at least somewhat master modeling, so no big deal.
Oct 16, 2022 Anewold link
u can take a dent/gol8 into empty sector and do /fps
u can see the poly counts along with fps, stick to a dent or goli poly count roughly, as for resolutions use 1024x1024 as a base.
cant speak for vo but there are generally 4 texture maps used in most game engines so same res for them (1024x1024) which can be used to improve details and reduce poly counts
Oct 16, 2022 Lord~spidey link
1024*1024 textures for larger objects people fly close to...

I haven't done much 3d modelling but that resolution is a little low by today's standards.

Hell the centurion probably has higher resolution textures than this...

VO's textures have associated depth maps with them too shit ain't trivial.