Forums » Role Playing
+1 to everything Rin said. He summed it up perfectly. Now here is another opinion. Serious.Person said "Online games are a relief for many people. In role playing games, they can be who they want and do what they want, letting off a lot of steam. You can do just as you please."
If that were entirely the case, why do we have the tools to /mute offensive chat? The tools to report abusive/cheating/offensive players? We may be able to do as we please, but not without consequences.
I have been friends with Sieger since I met him in game. Yes, I think this PK farming is a shit-act. It demeans the effort I have put into my REAL PK count. It matters not that I consider Sieger a friend, I would tell him in game I think its a shitty thing to do. Same goes for /duel rating farming, mentor point farming etc. However...
Has Sieger gained any in game advantage from this farming? Any new toys we others don't have? What has he really achieved here? From what I can see, he pissed of a bunch of people and added a new item to the list of things players can do to inflate their stats. We all know the stats are effectively meaningless beyond a certain point, bragging rights only. All Sieger has really achieved for himself is a new type of bragging right: "I can "cheat" better than you guys!" is what his PK count now says.
We also know, if the Devs feel this is indeed cheating, they will (at some point) take steps to mitigate it.
If that were entirely the case, why do we have the tools to /mute offensive chat? The tools to report abusive/cheating/offensive players? We may be able to do as we please, but not without consequences.
I have been friends with Sieger since I met him in game. Yes, I think this PK farming is a shit-act. It demeans the effort I have put into my REAL PK count. It matters not that I consider Sieger a friend, I would tell him in game I think its a shitty thing to do. Same goes for /duel rating farming, mentor point farming etc. However...
Has Sieger gained any in game advantage from this farming? Any new toys we others don't have? What has he really achieved here? From what I can see, he pissed of a bunch of people and added a new item to the list of things players can do to inflate their stats. We all know the stats are effectively meaningless beyond a certain point, bragging rights only. All Sieger has really achieved for himself is a new type of bragging right: "I can "cheat" better than you guys!" is what his PK count now says.
We also know, if the Devs feel this is indeed cheating, they will (at some point) take steps to mitigate it.
I sense great butt-hurt. Might I recommend Preparation-H?
I'm simply opposed to attempting to dismiss an issue just because some of those upset are hypocrites. And that's what you've been doing -- you keep trying to get people to ignore Sieger and focus on others.
I don't view what sieger did as a serious offense. The arsonist metaphor wasnt entirely accurate in this sense. My opposition is mainly targetted at the larger effort of Bojan and Kierky / friends to unfairly smear TGFT, of which this is clearly a part. This should have been handled by support ticket only. Making it a public conversation is purely instigative.
I don't view what sieger did as a serious offense. The arsonist metaphor wasnt entirely accurate in this sense. My opposition is mainly targetted at the larger effort of Bojan and Kierky / friends to unfairly smear TGFT, of which this is clearly a part. This should have been handled by support ticket only. Making it a public conversation is purely instigative.
"You can be a pirate, you can be a troll in many ways. You can be a griefer.
Judging the real character of people just cause they did something you don't like in an online game is wrong and cannot be justified. There is a difference between that and just disagreeing with the behavior."
There is a difference between player-level actions and character-level actions. Pirating somebody is a character-level action. Running a shady trade organization like TGFT is also a character-level action. Kicking somebody out of your guild for not licking your feet is a character-level action. Etc. Those are fine and do not usually reflect back on the real person behind the character. We're in agreement there. If somebody does those things, it makes their character an asshole, not the human behind the character.
However, some things are not character-level actions. The PK stat is intended to represent the number of kills you scored against others. Artificially increasing it by creating alts and having them let your character kill them thousands of times is clearly a player-level action, not a character-level action, and it's clearly against the spirit of the feature. Therefor it reflects badly on the player, not the character. Similarly, getting the devs to repeatedly change which nation your character belongs to so that you can get around the restrictions placed on faction gear is also a player-level action, and reflects on the player. Buying an account would be a player-level action, if it happened. (I am not convinced, though I can certainly believe it.)
Basically, when people get together to play, the assumption is that the stuff that happens in the game stays in the game, and out-of-game stays out-of-game. There is also the assumption that rules will be followed. Violating these things is offensive, at the player-level.
Judging the real character of people just cause they did something you don't like in an online game is wrong and cannot be justified. There is a difference between that and just disagreeing with the behavior."
There is a difference between player-level actions and character-level actions. Pirating somebody is a character-level action. Running a shady trade organization like TGFT is also a character-level action. Kicking somebody out of your guild for not licking your feet is a character-level action. Etc. Those are fine and do not usually reflect back on the real person behind the character. We're in agreement there. If somebody does those things, it makes their character an asshole, not the human behind the character.
However, some things are not character-level actions. The PK stat is intended to represent the number of kills you scored against others. Artificially increasing it by creating alts and having them let your character kill them thousands of times is clearly a player-level action, not a character-level action, and it's clearly against the spirit of the feature. Therefor it reflects badly on the player, not the character. Similarly, getting the devs to repeatedly change which nation your character belongs to so that you can get around the restrictions placed on faction gear is also a player-level action, and reflects on the player. Buying an account would be a player-level action, if it happened. (I am not convinced, though I can certainly believe it.)
Basically, when people get together to play, the assumption is that the stuff that happens in the game stays in the game, and out-of-game stays out-of-game. There is also the assumption that rules will be followed. Violating these things is offensive, at the player-level.
Let me quote Savet before answering:
"Just for a running list of antics, we have:
1. Sieger exploiting the character nation change by the devs to bypass faction ship limitations, resulting in drastic limitation for nation changes for all payers.
2. TGFT mass spying debacle through a public plugin surreptitiously collecting private player data and transmitting it to TGFT for sector spying.
3. TGFT vote mute campaigns resulting in punitive actions for a large chunk of TGFT.
4. TGFT multi-account station bombing to offset their general lack of conquest ability.
5. Sieger's PK farming racking up about 3,000 PKs (edit: 4000+ by latest count), in what appears to be an effort to place him among the ranks of long-time PVP greats.
Can TGFT just stop being horrible VO citizens and try playing the game in the way the game is meant to be played?"
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I don't view what sieger did as a serious offense. The arsonist metaphor wasnt entirely accurate in this sense. My opposition is mainly targetted at the larger effort of Bojan and Kierky / friends to unfairly smear TGFT, of which this is clearly a part. This should have been handled by support ticket only. Making it a public conversation is purely instigative.!
By your definition - no cheat, exploit or other unethical thing TGFT does is a problem.
The problem is that we dare expose your dirty laundry in public (gosh, we must not let VO community know anything about TGFT lowlifes and their dirty secrets) instead of sending a support ticket.
It's like saying - this guy is a serial murderer but it's nothing serious, lets hang the guy that pointed at him instead. Yeah, that's the right thing to do.
"Just for a running list of antics, we have:
1. Sieger exploiting the character nation change by the devs to bypass faction ship limitations, resulting in drastic limitation for nation changes for all payers.
2. TGFT mass spying debacle through a public plugin surreptitiously collecting private player data and transmitting it to TGFT for sector spying.
3. TGFT vote mute campaigns resulting in punitive actions for a large chunk of TGFT.
4. TGFT multi-account station bombing to offset their general lack of conquest ability.
5. Sieger's PK farming racking up about 3,000 PKs (edit: 4000+ by latest count), in what appears to be an effort to place him among the ranks of long-time PVP greats.
Can TGFT just stop being horrible VO citizens and try playing the game in the way the game is meant to be played?"
________________________________________________
I don't view what sieger did as a serious offense. The arsonist metaphor wasnt entirely accurate in this sense. My opposition is mainly targetted at the larger effort of Bojan and Kierky / friends to unfairly smear TGFT, of which this is clearly a part. This should have been handled by support ticket only. Making it a public conversation is purely instigative.!
By your definition - no cheat, exploit or other unethical thing TGFT does is a problem.
The problem is that we dare expose your dirty laundry in public (gosh, we must not let VO community know anything about TGFT lowlifes and their dirty secrets) instead of sending a support ticket.
It's like saying - this guy is a serial murderer but it's nothing serious, lets hang the guy that pointed at him instead. Yeah, that's the right thing to do.
No it's not like that. You just don't get it. But that's ok Bojan., I enjoy forum-ing!
Why is anyone defending this behavior?
We are a small community, and things like this are going to be noticed. Intentional abuse like this has the following detrimental effects to our community:
1. It fosters wide-spread disapproval and animosity towards the players and guild involved in such behavior.
2. It ties up development resources dealing with the review and oversight of such behavior.
3. It diminishes the value of people who play legitimately and diminishes the accomplishment perceived by such work.
Why do this? Why go out of your way to either intentionally abuse the current mechanics? Why go out of your way to defend such behavior?
If the people involved would simply stop doing dishonest exploitative crap, people could/would focus on actual RP and the game would be more enjoyable overall.
We are a small community, and things like this are going to be noticed. Intentional abuse like this has the following detrimental effects to our community:
1. It fosters wide-spread disapproval and animosity towards the players and guild involved in such behavior.
2. It ties up development resources dealing with the review and oversight of such behavior.
3. It diminishes the value of people who play legitimately and diminishes the accomplishment perceived by such work.
Why do this? Why go out of your way to either intentionally abuse the current mechanics? Why go out of your way to defend such behavior?
If the people involved would simply stop doing dishonest exploitative crap, people could/would focus on actual RP and the game would be more enjoyable overall.
If the people involved would simply stop doing dishonest exploitative crap, people could/would focus on actual RP and the game would be more enjoyable overall.
I agree, can't we all just get along? Bojan and Kierky say "no!".
I agree, can't we all just get along? Bojan and Kierky say "no!".
I agree, can't we all just get along? Bojan and Kierky say "no!".
Okay, so let's deal with this specific instance of abuse, and turn our sights on other abuses in other threads targeted at other types of abuse.
There is no justification here to support this type of behavior and we'd have been done in one page if people had not been defending this exploitative behavior.
Okay, so let's deal with this specific instance of abuse, and turn our sights on other abuses in other threads targeted at other types of abuse.
There is no justification here to support this type of behavior and we'd have been done in one page if people had not been defending this exploitative behavior.
Savet, there is nothing to deal with other than Bojan and Kierky keeping their conflict with TGFT alive. As many have said, this should have been dealt with privately by the devs if it was a case of abuse. Posting it in RP is a loud invitation for exactly what has happened in this thread.
As has been stated alread, EP and Westacular have long been known to employ the SAME EXACT tactics. But did you see a cry-thread here about that? No, not at least until today. More mature people deal with abuse cases in the way the Incarnate has asked us to. People who don't give a fuck about the devs, or about making the game better, choose to post this kind of garbage in the Roleplay forums and use it to further their game-destructing agenda.
As soon as you start acting as hard on EP and Westacular and Bojan for supporting similar behavior I'll take you seriously. Until then you are just another blind ShitKV supporter.
As has been stated alread, EP and Westacular have long been known to employ the SAME EXACT tactics. But did you see a cry-thread here about that? No, not at least until today. More mature people deal with abuse cases in the way the Incarnate has asked us to. People who don't give a fuck about the devs, or about making the game better, choose to post this kind of garbage in the Roleplay forums and use it to further their game-destructing agenda.
As soon as you start acting as hard on EP and Westacular and Bojan for supporting similar behavior I'll take you seriously. Until then you are just another blind ShitKV supporter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
Except pointing out the flaws of those pointing out problems is a common logical fallacy. Don't fall into the trap.
Except pointing out the flaws of those pointing out problems is a common logical fallacy. Don't fall into the trap.
No, my example was spot-on. The difference is that this thread contains specific proof of wrong-doing, and we have watched the abuse continue. When a similar thread is posted that contains similar proof of wrong-doing by others, I'll show similar support.
Did you actually read the link I posted?
Did you actually read the link I posted?
Did you read the link I posted?
I'm not arguing that Sieger didn't farm PKs, or that his farming PKs is necessarily a positive thing.
I'm not arguing that Sieger didn't farm PKs, or that his farming PKs is necessarily a positive thing.
As soon as you start acting as hard on EP and Westacular and Bojan for supporting similar behavior I'll take you seriously.
As soon as you have solid proof of that, I'm sure the devs will take action, but until you do, your word means nothing. I have proof of Sieger's obvious and blatant abuse. You have nothing on me, bar your word on it.
As soon as you have solid proof of that, I'm sure the devs will take action, but until you do, your word means nothing. I have proof of Sieger's obvious and blatant abuse. You have nothing on me, bar your word on it.
Kierky, some people are less concerned about these issues than you are, and thus are not always scanning stats and taking before and after screenshots. Some people would also prefer not to bother the devs with such trivial things and let them focus on keeping the game online.
"I'm not arguing that Sieger didn't farm PKs, or that his farming PKs is necessarily a positive thing."
This is very positive. Congrats to Sieger for being the BEST PK farmer EVAR! (Too far, content deleted - W) and you're both fucking meaningless.
This is very positive. Congrats to Sieger for being the BEST PK farmer EVAR! (Too far, content deleted - W) and you're both fucking meaningless.
This issue is being administratively addressed. If people keep sending me inflamed Support Tickets about how they're going to rage-quit because someone's stat-number is now higher than it was before, I'm going to start rage-muting them in response. While I am not condoning anything Sieger did (obviously, and I do consider it a gameplay exploit, particularly on this level), the player response to this has been a gigantic and stupid waste of precious developer time. It should have been a 30-second support ticket that we would have quietly handled.
I also attempted to write this more eloquently in a newspost update.
I am now locking this thread. Move along.
I also attempted to write this more eloquently in a newspost update.
I am now locking this thread. Move along.