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My "VO is your entire life" statement wasn't actually directed at you specifically, yoda. It's meant for VO players in general, especially the long timers. Why else would they be mad at themselves, leading them to take it out on everyone? Case in point: the TGFT leadership.
Sorry for the confusion.
Umm, you really shouldn't be talking about bash here if you want to continue using it. Soon people will whine, and from the massive outcry, Incarnate will feel obliged to rework how commandline interacts with the game in linux and mac. It really doesn't take much to disconnect the input handler, leaving only output.
Sorry for the confusion.
Umm, you really shouldn't be talking about bash here if you want to continue using it. Soon people will whine, and from the massive outcry, Incarnate will feel obliged to rework how commandline interacts with the game in linux and mac. It really doesn't take much to disconnect the input handler, leaving only output.
You forget about Cygwin. You can use bash on windblows too ;)
You don't have to use bash in windows. There is batch programming. Not as good, but it's functional.
I am not saying plugins need to be removed. As I said there are some really great ones that do enhance the game play. My issue is that no one really has any way of knowing what someone else has done via plugin. It is naive to believe there isn't someone out there who has not figured out a creative way to use it for a combat advantage. Call it paranoia but the fact remains there is no way to be 100% sure that is not the case.
I have been playing this game long enough and fought almost everyone in the game enough to know there are some things that just aren't jiving.
I have no problem with dying. They are pretend ships in a pretend universe. There are many players that are better than me in PvP but at least they are usually close. Landing 15 consecutive energy shots on a randomly strafing ship without a miss, that just screams something is not right.
I have been playing this game long enough and fought almost everyone in the game enough to know there are some things that just aren't jiving.
I have no problem with dying. They are pretend ships in a pretend universe. There are many players that are better than me in PvP but at least they are usually close. Landing 15 consecutive energy shots on a randomly strafing ship without a miss, that just screams something is not right.
I have been playing this game long enough and fought almost everyone in the game enough to know there are some things that just aren't jiving.
We all would like to know who you think is using plugins to do magical things.
Personally I still believe Nahin figured out something magical.
We all would like to know who you think is using plugins to do magical things.
Personally I still believe Nahin figured out something magical.
i had a file i made called vendettaevent.c in 2003 that processed the log file and alerted me on irc if a flag capture was in play
Spuck had managed to write a bot that could patrol a sector
Firemage had a functioning two way IRC relay
Starfreeze wrote a bank system
All before lua
*mic drop*
Spuck had managed to write a bot that could patrol a sector
Firemage had a functioning two way IRC relay
Starfreeze wrote a bank system
All before lua
*mic drop*
You filed support tickets because you got swarm-spammed? What a douchenozzle.
Call it paranoia but the fact remains there is no way to be 100% sure that is not the case.
Do u even burden of proof, bro?
Call it paranoia but the fact remains there is no way to be 100% sure that is not the case.
Do u even burden of proof, bro?
What post are you reading Lecter? There is nothing related to swarms any where in the OP.
+1 for douchenozzle, you are winning the ninny name calling race so far.
+1 for douchenozzle, you are winning the ninny name calling race so far.
The only plugin I use is a modified enterleave, honest.
Hoban, I know you have to hear dirty whore day after day in guild chat ramble on about the lua conspiracy and are forced to make tinfoil hats during craft hour...
But the API is there for you to read if, you like, on the vo lua wiki, you can see what is and isn't possible. If you are not familiar with programming language stuff ask the lua programmers here their opinion. It's not magic.
As far as thing being 'just not right' I see that stuff too. One night in c12 I was in a hound traveling in a straight line at 225, I zipped past a vulture, I was 900m past it, and somehow it caught up to withing 400 meters of me.
It's an artifact of your computer showing you something that it found out about a few milliseconds after it happened, and the other player experiencing it a little before you. It's only a simulation of a universe where there is the timing on your computer, the timing on you're opponent's computer, and also the server interacts with us in some ways too. Throw in a little lag and things can get quite odd, teleporting and such.
From the standpoint of a technological achievement, I'm amazed that VO is anywhere near as good as it is. Kudos to their skill.
Does cheating happen, will cheating happen? You bet. The mass hack is probably the best example. It had nothing to do with lua. The devs will do what they can whenever they find an exploit.
I'm a professional programmer. I have written a few plugins. The plugins I use for combat are all available on voupr. You're more likely to find scripting providing a secret tactical advantage than a combat advantage.
Deep breath, now go play.
But the API is there for you to read if, you like, on the vo lua wiki, you can see what is and isn't possible. If you are not familiar with programming language stuff ask the lua programmers here their opinion. It's not magic.
As far as thing being 'just not right' I see that stuff too. One night in c12 I was in a hound traveling in a straight line at 225, I zipped past a vulture, I was 900m past it, and somehow it caught up to withing 400 meters of me.
It's an artifact of your computer showing you something that it found out about a few milliseconds after it happened, and the other player experiencing it a little before you. It's only a simulation of a universe where there is the timing on your computer, the timing on you're opponent's computer, and also the server interacts with us in some ways too. Throw in a little lag and things can get quite odd, teleporting and such.
From the standpoint of a technological achievement, I'm amazed that VO is anywhere near as good as it is. Kudos to their skill.
Does cheating happen, will cheating happen? You bet. The mass hack is probably the best example. It had nothing to do with lua. The devs will do what they can whenever they find an exploit.
I'm a professional programmer. I have written a few plugins. The plugins I use for combat are all available on voupr. You're more likely to find scripting providing a secret tactical advantage than a combat advantage.
Deep breath, now go play.
I'm a professional programmer. I have written a few plugins.
What a conceited, egotistical remark. Please, just because you can code, it doesn't mean you're a god and know everything there is to know.
What a conceited, egotistical remark. Please, just because you can code, it doesn't mean you're a god and know everything there is to know.
it doesn't mean you're a god and know everything there is to know
Did he...make either of those claims?
Did he...make either of those claims?
What a conceited, egotistical remark. Please, just because you can code, it doesn't mean you're a god and know everything there is to know.
Uhh, I didn't get that out of his post, either.
Well Dr. Lecter I tried to address these issues via support ticket and was told to bring it to the forums.
To what ticket are you referring, Hoban? I just went through every ticket you submitted since August, and the only mention I see of someone directing you to the forums (specifically Suggestions), is when you were unhappy that we would not repair your standing after you killed a station guard in guarded space. But that has zilch to do with the plugin system, or whether cheating is widespread, or a problem, or whatever.
I am not saying plugins need to be removed. As I said there are some really great ones that do enhance the game play. My issue is that no one really has any way of knowing what someone else has done via plugin. It is naive to believe there isn't someone out there who has not figured out a creative way to use it for a combat advantage. Call it paranoia but the fact remains there is no way to be 100% sure that is not the case.
Actually, we have a pretty decent way of knowing what can be done, since we created the game and the "sandbox" that limits the influence and scope of plugins within the game environment.
The kind of paranoia you're describing should really be reserved for straight client-hacks, which have nothing to do with the plugin system at all. If people are going to go hard-core on mass hacking or trying to minimize collision damage or something, they're going to straight-up edit the game's memory. This is a very low-level attack (patching RAM contents in real-time.. difficult and technologically complex) to which every game is susceptible. I actually addressed this in a lengthy post last year when Yoda was upset about the possibility.
But that has nothing to do with plugins. Plugins are a pretty limited subset of the game's functionality, that we have intentionally and knowingly made available, and they're basically "walled" off from the actual core game mechanics. People will occasionally find some small usage that pushes the boundaries, and we'll tweak things to compensate, and that's ok. But no one is magically discovering the "make hits not happen" function. That doesn't exist.
The real problem here is neither plugins nor complex memory-editing techniques, but rather paranoia in an online game that has challenges with dynamic latency, client hardware and other variations. The game works pretty well. It's either good enough for you to play, or it isn't. But I am not getting rid of the plugin system because it would arbitrarily give un-informed people a "warm, fuzzy feeling" about the quantity of cheating in the game. If you have real cheating accusations.. do report that in a support ticket. We'll check it out.
But if you're grumpy because packet loss made your shots not-land that one time, I don't have any solutions for you, other than maybe just stick to single-player games? Because no other online game is going to be any better off, in reality.
Uhh, I didn't get that out of his post, either.
Well Dr. Lecter I tried to address these issues via support ticket and was told to bring it to the forums.
To what ticket are you referring, Hoban? I just went through every ticket you submitted since August, and the only mention I see of someone directing you to the forums (specifically Suggestions), is when you were unhappy that we would not repair your standing after you killed a station guard in guarded space. But that has zilch to do with the plugin system, or whether cheating is widespread, or a problem, or whatever.
I am not saying plugins need to be removed. As I said there are some really great ones that do enhance the game play. My issue is that no one really has any way of knowing what someone else has done via plugin. It is naive to believe there isn't someone out there who has not figured out a creative way to use it for a combat advantage. Call it paranoia but the fact remains there is no way to be 100% sure that is not the case.
Actually, we have a pretty decent way of knowing what can be done, since we created the game and the "sandbox" that limits the influence and scope of plugins within the game environment.
The kind of paranoia you're describing should really be reserved for straight client-hacks, which have nothing to do with the plugin system at all. If people are going to go hard-core on mass hacking or trying to minimize collision damage or something, they're going to straight-up edit the game's memory. This is a very low-level attack (patching RAM contents in real-time.. difficult and technologically complex) to which every game is susceptible. I actually addressed this in a lengthy post last year when Yoda was upset about the possibility.
But that has nothing to do with plugins. Plugins are a pretty limited subset of the game's functionality, that we have intentionally and knowingly made available, and they're basically "walled" off from the actual core game mechanics. People will occasionally find some small usage that pushes the boundaries, and we'll tweak things to compensate, and that's ok. But no one is magically discovering the "make hits not happen" function. That doesn't exist.
The real problem here is neither plugins nor complex memory-editing techniques, but rather paranoia in an online game that has challenges with dynamic latency, client hardware and other variations. The game works pretty well. It's either good enough for you to play, or it isn't. But I am not getting rid of the plugin system because it would arbitrarily give un-informed people a "warm, fuzzy feeling" about the quantity of cheating in the game. If you have real cheating accusations.. do report that in a support ticket. We'll check it out.
But if you're grumpy because packet loss made your shots not-land that one time, I don't have any solutions for you, other than maybe just stick to single-player games? Because no other online game is going to be any better off, in reality.
I love you
What are we?!
ANGRY!
And why are we angry?!
WE DON'T REALLY KNOW!
ANGRY!
And why are we angry?!
WE DON'T REALLY KNOW!
As always Incarnates response makes perfect sense but... did you neglect the other important part of Hoban's initial post on purpose or, since plug-ins are lately more in focus that any other subject - decided that that was the only thing worth addressing?
Proposed solution to angst - Shoot each other in game. Well hell that sounds like the thing to do...except wait....the only safe place you can shoot your KOS standing rivals is Grey Space or unmonitored sectors otherwise you risk TEMP KOS from your own nation for shooting them or standing loss because the Ai strike force fly into your line of fire and die. Does that sound broken to you? "Friendly Fire" is a hazard of the game.....so space ships can be built, worhmholes mapped and used, advanced weapons platforms that due hella damage used but they don't have an IFF system that 21st Century atomsphereic fighter planes do? riiiiiiiiiight. Result: More angst.
I was online yesterday night when Hoban was discussing a particular situation this relates to on IRC.
I suppose if he described the situation that happened and caused his standing loss in his support ticket, you are familiar with the subject?
The current nation defense system has it's perks and SF is one of the major ones. In the heat of the battle it's just too easy to hit a SF npc with a stray flare or a neut shot and ramifications of doing that are pretty severe.
In reality if the enemy (KOS or tkos player) enters your station sector it's best to just sit it out instead to try and defend anyone or anything there. Leaving to SF to solve the situation often produces negligible results but at least you won't lose standing by accidentally hitting a npc that jumped right in front of you while you are shooting the enemy.
The solution for this that came to mind can be found in Deneb warfare where players are allowed 2 friendly npc strikes before they are penalized (kicked out of the mission). Can situations like Hoban described be solved with mechanics used in Deneb warfare?
Also, on the side note, I have to say I did detect some dev bias in favor of players grouped under TGFT tag. When anyone else makes a legitimate complaint about something - they are making a 'storm in a tea cup'. When TGFT complains about something the feature gets removed instantly (furies) - no questions asked or 'waste of dev time' or 'storm in a tea cup' mentioned.
Just sayin'.
Proposed solution to angst - Shoot each other in game. Well hell that sounds like the thing to do...except wait....the only safe place you can shoot your KOS standing rivals is Grey Space or unmonitored sectors otherwise you risk TEMP KOS from your own nation for shooting them or standing loss because the Ai strike force fly into your line of fire and die. Does that sound broken to you? "Friendly Fire" is a hazard of the game.....so space ships can be built, worhmholes mapped and used, advanced weapons platforms that due hella damage used but they don't have an IFF system that 21st Century atomsphereic fighter planes do? riiiiiiiiiight. Result: More angst.
I was online yesterday night when Hoban was discussing a particular situation this relates to on IRC.
I suppose if he described the situation that happened and caused his standing loss in his support ticket, you are familiar with the subject?
The current nation defense system has it's perks and SF is one of the major ones. In the heat of the battle it's just too easy to hit a SF npc with a stray flare or a neut shot and ramifications of doing that are pretty severe.
In reality if the enemy (KOS or tkos player) enters your station sector it's best to just sit it out instead to try and defend anyone or anything there. Leaving to SF to solve the situation often produces negligible results but at least you won't lose standing by accidentally hitting a npc that jumped right in front of you while you are shooting the enemy.
The solution for this that came to mind can be found in Deneb warfare where players are allowed 2 friendly npc strikes before they are penalized (kicked out of the mission). Can situations like Hoban described be solved with mechanics used in Deneb warfare?
Also, on the side note, I have to say I did detect some dev bias in favor of players grouped under TGFT tag. When anyone else makes a legitimate complaint about something - they are making a 'storm in a tea cup'. When TGFT complains about something the feature gets removed instantly (furies) - no questions asked or 'waste of dev time' or 'storm in a tea cup' mentioned.
Just sayin'.
@INCARNATE
You are correct, that is the ticket I am reffering to and was the 2nd part of the OP and was not referencing plugins which so far none of the replys have been talking about.
To that point: How is it justified to lose standing when shooting a stationary KOS rival in home nation space at 50 meters and the AI SF flies through the gat stream and dies?
That basically sends the message that you can't shoot them because you have no idea when the SF will fly in front of you. And before anyone brings up "poor trigger control" the afore mentioned packet loss & latency in network & harware precludes that from being a viable response. It doesn't happen everyday which precludes that there should either be exceptions made for these rare events or a change in how it works.
To the plugin point. No I do not program in lua, I do on occasion write bash scripts to make servers do things they don't normally do. Glancing over the lua wiki the first thing I would try if I was inclined to learn it would be to toggle AutoAim off & back on in between energy shots to get the most accurate location of the target. Maybe I read or misunderstood what exactly those reltead events do but that is the first thing I would try. Would that send up any flags on the server? I ask in ernest because I in fact don't know and would like a genuine answer.
But if you're grumpy because packet loss made your shots not-land that one time,
Actaully it is the exact opposite. It is that other players seem to be able to land 10 to 15 consecutive energy shots on a randomly strafing corvult like the are magnets being atracted to the ships hull. My auto aim doesn't work like that why does theirs?
You are correct, that is the ticket I am reffering to and was the 2nd part of the OP and was not referencing plugins which so far none of the replys have been talking about.
To that point: How is it justified to lose standing when shooting a stationary KOS rival in home nation space at 50 meters and the AI SF flies through the gat stream and dies?
That basically sends the message that you can't shoot them because you have no idea when the SF will fly in front of you. And before anyone brings up "poor trigger control" the afore mentioned packet loss & latency in network & harware precludes that from being a viable response. It doesn't happen everyday which precludes that there should either be exceptions made for these rare events or a change in how it works.
To the plugin point. No I do not program in lua, I do on occasion write bash scripts to make servers do things they don't normally do. Glancing over the lua wiki the first thing I would try if I was inclined to learn it would be to toggle AutoAim off & back on in between energy shots to get the most accurate location of the target. Maybe I read or misunderstood what exactly those reltead events do but that is the first thing I would try. Would that send up any flags on the server? I ask in ernest because I in fact don't know and would like a genuine answer.
But if you're grumpy because packet loss made your shots not-land that one time,
Actaully it is the exact opposite. It is that other players seem to be able to land 10 to 15 consecutive energy shots on a randomly strafing corvult like the are magnets being atracted to the ships hull. My auto aim doesn't work like that why does theirs?
As always Incarnates response makes perfect sense but... did you neglect the other important part of Hoban's initial post on purpose or, since plug-ins are lately more in focus that any other subject - decided that that was the only thing worth addressing?
I responded to Hoban's comments in this particular page.
In reference to your question, I am not going to allow people to kill station guards around stations, simply because they say "oh, it's an accident and I'm totally defending the station!". I can't do that, because it will then be exploited in ways that are far more problematic than the same equivalent situation in a Border Skirmish battle scene (where all people are basically there for a battle, and arrive at their own risk.. as opposed to a station in Guarded Nation-Space that has newbies flying around it?).
The simple answer is "stay out of the strike force's way". And don't get involved with "defending" a guarded station unless you're willing to take on the repercussions of actually killing the intended law enforcement characters.
Now, if someone wants me to move a station somewhere else, or re-organize the Serco border.. well.. I think we have that discussion already going on in Suggestions. But no, you do not get to kill station guards around stations because you claim you're "helping".
Also, on the side note, I have to say I did detect some dev bias in favor of players grouped under TGFT tag. When anyone else makes a legitimate complaint about something - they are making a 'storm in a tea cup'.
Oh for chrissake, seriously? Like I give a rats ass about what guild you're in, or am even aware of that.
I responded to Hoban's comments in this particular page.
In reference to your question, I am not going to allow people to kill station guards around stations, simply because they say "oh, it's an accident and I'm totally defending the station!". I can't do that, because it will then be exploited in ways that are far more problematic than the same equivalent situation in a Border Skirmish battle scene (where all people are basically there for a battle, and arrive at their own risk.. as opposed to a station in Guarded Nation-Space that has newbies flying around it?).
The simple answer is "stay out of the strike force's way". And don't get involved with "defending" a guarded station unless you're willing to take on the repercussions of actually killing the intended law enforcement characters.
Now, if someone wants me to move a station somewhere else, or re-organize the Serco border.. well.. I think we have that discussion already going on in Suggestions. But no, you do not get to kill station guards around stations because you claim you're "helping".
Also, on the side note, I have to say I did detect some dev bias in favor of players grouped under TGFT tag. When anyone else makes a legitimate complaint about something - they are making a 'storm in a tea cup'.
Oh for chrissake, seriously? Like I give a rats ass about what guild you're in, or am even aware of that.
Turning autoaim on and off would tell you nothing new, it would merely switch your lead-off indicator from yellow to red for a second. Yw!
To that point: How is it justified to lose standing when shooting a stationary KOS rival in home nation space at 50 meters and the AI SF flies through the gat stream and dies?
As mentioned above, it is the best available solution to a situation with multiple challenges. I cannot detect your "intent", all I can tell is that you're killing station guards. That's reasonably as much as I'm going to be able to detect. Automated defense of the station (particularly to protect newbies and the like) trumps your RP desire to "defend" your nation.
To the plugin point. No I do not program in lua, I do on occasion write bash scripts to make servers do things they don't normally do. Glancing over the lua wiki the first thing I would try if I was inclined to learn it would be to toggle AutoAim off & back on in between energy shots to get the most accurate location of the target. Maybe I read or misunderstood what exactly those reltead events do but that is the first thing I would try. Would that send up any flags on the server? I ask in ernest because I in fact don't know and would like a genuine answer.
Then try it? Feel free. No, toggling auto-aim does not change the synchronization of the client and server, if that's what you're asking (that would be a pretty bizarre protocol). It also does not impact the interpolation of the available data. It simply utilizes the available data, within the given frame, to make a prediction.
Actaully it is the exact opposite. It is that other players seem to be able to land 10 to 15 consecutive energy shots on a randomly strafing corvult like the are magnets being atracted to the ships hull. My auto aim doesn't work like that why does theirs?
This is what sounds like paranoia. Some people are better pilots than you? Some people have better connections, ping-times, better computers. Maybe they're younger and have better reaction time? You had some unlucky packet loss or a latency-spike? I have no idea why they're killing you, but it is unlikely to be related to cheating. Again, if you want to submit support tickets with specific dates/times/locations, we can check things more thoroughly, but please don't waste our time unless you're really, really sure that something is awry. And based on what you're described, none of this is really passing that litmus test.
As mentioned above, it is the best available solution to a situation with multiple challenges. I cannot detect your "intent", all I can tell is that you're killing station guards. That's reasonably as much as I'm going to be able to detect. Automated defense of the station (particularly to protect newbies and the like) trumps your RP desire to "defend" your nation.
To the plugin point. No I do not program in lua, I do on occasion write bash scripts to make servers do things they don't normally do. Glancing over the lua wiki the first thing I would try if I was inclined to learn it would be to toggle AutoAim off & back on in between energy shots to get the most accurate location of the target. Maybe I read or misunderstood what exactly those reltead events do but that is the first thing I would try. Would that send up any flags on the server? I ask in ernest because I in fact don't know and would like a genuine answer.
Then try it? Feel free. No, toggling auto-aim does not change the synchronization of the client and server, if that's what you're asking (that would be a pretty bizarre protocol). It also does not impact the interpolation of the available data. It simply utilizes the available data, within the given frame, to make a prediction.
Actaully it is the exact opposite. It is that other players seem to be able to land 10 to 15 consecutive energy shots on a randomly strafing corvult like the are magnets being atracted to the ships hull. My auto aim doesn't work like that why does theirs?
This is what sounds like paranoia. Some people are better pilots than you? Some people have better connections, ping-times, better computers. Maybe they're younger and have better reaction time? You had some unlucky packet loss or a latency-spike? I have no idea why they're killing you, but it is unlikely to be related to cheating. Again, if you want to submit support tickets with specific dates/times/locations, we can check things more thoroughly, but please don't waste our time unless you're really, really sure that something is awry. And based on what you're described, none of this is really passing that litmus test.