Forums » Bugs
Client lock-ups when using DX11
Had it happen a few times now and it always seems to be under the same circumstances. The client locks up hard, unable to switch to desktop or launch task manager when it happens, forcing me to hold down the power button and force a shut down.
Seems to happen when border/capitol turrets are firing at me already and a player attacks with swarms. If the swarms hit and I can see the "blue" explosion effect, the client locks up hard. The machine is still running, and as far as I can tell, Windows is still responding in the background as I can tap the power button and make the machine sleep. Resuming puts the VO window back on top though in this locked up state, forcing me to hold down power to force a shut down. System temperatures are not overly hot and as long as I do not run into the above situation I can play all day long without a hitch, but capitol gauss + swarms hitting seems to lock me up hard every time.
(This happens to me more than you might think, as I'm a bit of an ass and people like to fire swarms at me :) )
Does not happen in DX9. Not that big of an issue, just thought I would report.
Seems to happen when border/capitol turrets are firing at me already and a player attacks with swarms. If the swarms hit and I can see the "blue" explosion effect, the client locks up hard. The machine is still running, and as far as I can tell, Windows is still responding in the background as I can tap the power button and make the machine sleep. Resuming puts the VO window back on top though in this locked up state, forcing me to hold down power to force a shut down. System temperatures are not overly hot and as long as I do not run into the above situation I can play all day long without a hitch, but capitol gauss + swarms hitting seems to lock me up hard every time.
(This happens to me more than you might think, as I'm a bit of an ass and people like to fire swarms at me :) )
Does not happen in DX9. Not that big of an issue, just thought I would report.
So, what you are describing is a textbook driver or hardware instability issue (and not a game bug).
No game should ever be able to create a situation where you are forced to reboot. That fundamentally violates the ideas of memory protection and other concepts inherent to modern operating systems.
It is not uncommon for one specific game (or one specific situation in a game) to expose a driver problem like this. Whatever is triggering the issue may only become bad enough under that particular situation. DX9 is a very different API, and probably a very different driver code-path, so that isn't surprising either.
What GPU hardware and drivers are you using? Have you tried upgrading your drivers?
No game should ever be able to create a situation where you are forced to reboot. That fundamentally violates the ideas of memory protection and other concepts inherent to modern operating systems.
It is not uncommon for one specific game (or one specific situation in a game) to expose a driver problem like this. Whatever is triggering the issue may only become bad enough under that particular situation. DX9 is a very different API, and probably a very different driver code-path, so that isn't surprising either.
What GPU hardware and drivers are you using? Have you tried upgrading your drivers?
It's an Nvidia GTX750m and the latest 355.82 drivers on Windows 10 Pro. I would like to point out that even when VO is behaving, it has issues minimizing on Win 10 if another app isn't running in the background (ie, if there's nothing to alt+tab to). Like I said, Windows isn't locking up, it's just the VO client once crashed will not go away. I can hear notifications, and pressing keys gives me the Windows "ding" sound, so it is not hard locking the system just the VO client.
I'm not exactly a newb when it comes to hardware, and this isn't causing a system crash so the driver itself is not crashing. It's just forcing me to hard reset because the VO Window will not minimize to let me force close it. I suspect that if I was running in Windowed mode I would not need to pull the power, in fact I may try see if I can get it to crash in Windowed mode to confirm the OS is fine.
[edit]
Also the fact that it's reproducible and only happens in the above scenario does tend to point me at VO and not my system. I'll also try to see if I can get it to happen on my partners machine which has an AMD Radeon 8750m gpu.
I'm not exactly a newb when it comes to hardware, and this isn't causing a system crash so the driver itself is not crashing. It's just forcing me to hard reset because the VO Window will not minimize to let me force close it. I suspect that if I was running in Windowed mode I would not need to pull the power, in fact I may try see if I can get it to crash in Windowed mode to confirm the OS is fine.
[edit]
Also the fact that it's reproducible and only happens in the above scenario does tend to point me at VO and not my system. I'll also try to see if I can get it to happen on my partners machine which has an AMD Radeon 8750m gpu.
But the VO window does not control whether you can force-close things. That's my point.
On any Windows system post-Windows-NT: if you can't hit ctrl-alt-del, bring up the task manager, and kill the VO process, then something is seriously wrong on an OS level.
There may also be other issues with windowing on Windows 10 (although it's been working well for me, since 10-beta, but I'll try it in more windowed task-switching scenarios).
But, no disrespect your experience, I have to be unequivocal: No game/app should ever be able to create a situation where you are forced to reboot. If there were some kind of "take control and don't let the app be killed" windowing option, that would be a terrible flaw to be exploited by any malware author.
System crashes and OS/driver bugs can take many, many forms. They are not all hard-locks. Some of them are quite bizarre (it's a daily reality for us).
So, going back to the beginning here.. please test whether you can bring up the task manager, and kill the app. If you cannot do that, then there's something more fundamental going on.
Once we're sure on that, there's some other stuff we can try and test. Even if the OS is still fully operational, there's still a good chance this is a driver-related problem, and a collision with your particular configuration, so we'll probably need you to test a number of cases. But, we need to be sure it isn't actually requiring a reboot, before we go down the debugging rabbit hole.
Even if it is a driver issue, we can still try and raise it with nvidia, if we can create a reproduction-case. But, basically we need to learn more fundamentals, first..
On any Windows system post-Windows-NT: if you can't hit ctrl-alt-del, bring up the task manager, and kill the VO process, then something is seriously wrong on an OS level.
There may also be other issues with windowing on Windows 10 (although it's been working well for me, since 10-beta, but I'll try it in more windowed task-switching scenarios).
But, no disrespect your experience, I have to be unequivocal: No game/app should ever be able to create a situation where you are forced to reboot. If there were some kind of "take control and don't let the app be killed" windowing option, that would be a terrible flaw to be exploited by any malware author.
System crashes and OS/driver bugs can take many, many forms. They are not all hard-locks. Some of them are quite bizarre (it's a daily reality for us).
So, going back to the beginning here.. please test whether you can bring up the task manager, and kill the app. If you cannot do that, then there's something more fundamental going on.
Once we're sure on that, there's some other stuff we can try and test. Even if the OS is still fully operational, there's still a good chance this is a driver-related problem, and a collision with your particular configuration, so we'll probably need you to test a number of cases. But, we need to be sure it isn't actually requiring a reboot, before we go down the debugging rabbit hole.
Even if it is a driver issue, we can still try and raise it with nvidia, if we can create a reproduction-case. But, basically we need to learn more fundamentals, first..
Ok, I'll test test test test and test some more before I make any further reports.
[edit]
Didn't try task manager, just Alt+tab / Super+D but will do. FYI (not to be pedantic) CTRL+ALT+DEL is lock screen since NT4, CTRL+SHIFT+Esc is task manager.
[edit]
Didn't try task manager, just Alt+tab / Super+D but will do. FYI (not to be pedantic) CTRL+ALT+DEL is lock screen since NT4, CTRL+SHIFT+Esc is task manager.
psst yoda, as long as we're being pedantic there's a task manager button on that screen so Incs instructions were accurate.
In my experience, ctrl-alt-del is the most reliable way to reach the task manager, in the event of a catastrophic application failure. I have a feeling the OS watches for the "three finger salute" on a very deep level, at least with some historical versions of Windows.
If one cannot reach it that way, then something is seriously wrong with the OS.
That's why I specifically suggested it.
If one cannot reach it that way, then something is seriously wrong with the OS.
That's why I specifically suggested it.
Ok, so I was able to recreate the crash on my partners laptop. Same scenario, I got shot in the face with swarms and it happened again. AMD gfx card, could get task manager with CTRL+SHIFT+Esc and kill VO.
Not been able to end in the same situation with my Nvidia card, as I've been selling SSS all day long at Latos N-2, but will keep trying.
The fact that it happened on different hardware does point me towards VO tho. I know you want to mark DX11 "stable" but it isn't. So yeah. I'll try see if I can get it to do it on my Iris pro too.
Not been able to end in the same situation with my Nvidia card, as I've been selling SSS all day long at Latos N-2, but will keep trying.
The fact that it happened on different hardware does point me towards VO tho. I know you want to mark DX11 "stable" but it isn't. So yeah. I'll try see if I can get it to do it on my Iris pro too.
Had it happen on my Nvidia card again, was impossible to launch task manager with either key combo. The VO client freezes and once it has cannot close it without a forced shut down. This is with latest drivers 355.98. It seems to me that something else tries to grab focus and loses, maybe the bug reporter window? Dunno, mouse cursor is on screen, but cannot switch at all.
On my Iris Pro, not had it happen so far, but other issues do creep up. Alt+tabbing crashes VO, changing to Window mode with alt+enter crashes VO, notifications going off crashes VO. Not been shot with swarms while attacked by turrets, but that is bound to happen sooner or later. Also with the above crashes, no bug reporter fires up.
[edit]
and a note to spence, no, it doesn't always have an option to start task manager, this can be disabled via a policy change. SO ner ner.
On my Iris Pro, not had it happen so far, but other issues do creep up. Alt+tabbing crashes VO, changing to Window mode with alt+enter crashes VO, notifications going off crashes VO. Not been shot with swarms while attacked by turrets, but that is bound to happen sooner or later. Also with the above crashes, no bug reporter fires up.
[edit]
and a note to spence, no, it doesn't always have an option to start task manager, this can be disabled via a policy change. SO ner ner.
Are these all happening on Windows 10?
Yes, all in Windows 10.
[edit]
I can install Windows 7 on the Nvidia/Intel one if that helps with testing? Got plenty of spare drives kicking around. Cannot on the AMD one as a) it isnt mine, and b) it has some weird assed HP SSD with a none standard connector.
[edit]
I can install Windows 7 on the Nvidia/Intel one if that helps with testing? Got plenty of spare drives kicking around. Cannot on the AMD one as a) it isnt mine, and b) it has some weird assed HP SSD with a none standard connector.
Actually, if it's convenient for you to try on Windows 7, that would be really helpful. Even without being a driver-bug per-se, it could easily still be a new-Windows-version bug (there were other problems in beta, which have since cleared up).
Ray is swamped right now, so he won't be able to start working on a reproduction case until next week, at the earliest, and knowing whether to chase after all-windows or just-10 would help (his development machine still runs 7, for instance, so if he tests and can't reproduce, that won't be very helpful).
But, I know it's time consuming and annoying to install Windows, so I leave that up to you. If it's possible for you to try it, that would help us. Thanks.
Ray is swamped right now, so he won't be able to start working on a reproduction case until next week, at the earliest, and knowing whether to chase after all-windows or just-10 would help (his development machine still runs 7, for instance, so if he tests and can't reproduce, that won't be very helpful).
But, I know it's time consuming and annoying to install Windows, so I leave that up to you. If it's possible for you to try it, that would help us. Thanks.
Will do on Sunday and update this post.
Windows 7 x64, Nvidia GTX 750M, driver 355.98.
Managed to swarm myself with another acct while under turret fire. No crash. Not sure this is a good real life test, so will keep playing on this setup for a bit. Alt+tabbing seems a bit iffy, but the original crash reported doesn't seem to be reproducable on Windows 7.
The Intel Iris Pro issues (driver version V 15.36.24.64.4262) still seem to persist though, alt+tabbing, or switching to Window mode and back cause an instant client close.
---
Will keep playing as I play and see if I can get the original crash to happen, but right now im leaning towards a Windows 10 only crash, as I seemed to be able to get that to happen every time before.
[edit]
Played for hours and hours, even took an Itani char to Sol II and stuff. No crashes at all. Got shot at with all types of guns (just to be proper). No crashes.
Who would have thought Microsoft would f*k something up that bad? Specially because Win 10 under the hood isn't that different to Win 8.1... Not me! (sarcasm) Ooh ooh, I should try Win 8 / 8.1 next, just to be sure.
Managed to swarm myself with another acct while under turret fire. No crash. Not sure this is a good real life test, so will keep playing on this setup for a bit. Alt+tabbing seems a bit iffy, but the original crash reported doesn't seem to be reproducable on Windows 7.
The Intel Iris Pro issues (driver version V 15.36.24.64.4262) still seem to persist though, alt+tabbing, or switching to Window mode and back cause an instant client close.
---
Will keep playing as I play and see if I can get the original crash to happen, but right now im leaning towards a Windows 10 only crash, as I seemed to be able to get that to happen every time before.
[edit]
Played for hours and hours, even took an Itani char to Sol II and stuff. No crashes at all. Got shot at with all types of guns (just to be proper). No crashes.
Who would have thought Microsoft would f*k something up that bad? Specially because Win 10 under the hood isn't that different to Win 8.1... Not me! (sarcasm) Ooh ooh, I should try Win 8 / 8.1 next, just to be sure.