Forums » Suggestions
Shields
Shields would be great, but I think it would work better if they had limitations. Tell me what y'all think about this:
One should be able to activate a shielding system only when your guns are off (well, just you can't shoot with shields on). This way, traders will have extra protection from pirates. I'm getting tired of jumping into a sector, turboing to a base, and some 'ace' a-hole shoots me dead 10m from the entrance just for laughs. It's not fair that people camp bases so badly, or that if I'm lucky and survive, I have to repair 98% of my ship. What I love even more is those jerks who camp jump points so I get destroyed as soon as I regain control of my ship after the jump (with no energy). Extra protection is needed, I mean, what space game doesn't give the ships shields? But forcing people to trade shields for guns is a good balance of power.
Comments?
One should be able to activate a shielding system only when your guns are off (well, just you can't shoot with shields on). This way, traders will have extra protection from pirates. I'm getting tired of jumping into a sector, turboing to a base, and some 'ace' a-hole shoots me dead 10m from the entrance just for laughs. It's not fair that people camp bases so badly, or that if I'm lucky and survive, I have to repair 98% of my ship. What I love even more is those jerks who camp jump points so I get destroyed as soon as I regain control of my ship after the jump (with no energy). Extra protection is needed, I mean, what space game doesn't give the ships shields? But forcing people to trade shields for guns is a good balance of power.
Comments?
"Comments?"
Sure. Your point would be better taken if you weren't so whiny about it. It sorta makes your argument look more self-centered than reasonable, and people won't take it as seriously. Once you get a bit more experienced, you'll be harder to kill.
Some tips:
1) Jump through gates on physics mode. You'll be moving when you reach the other side.
2) Don't just jump into a sector and turbo toward a base. Take a look at u and see who is around. If you see a bright red dot on radar, start moving. Otherwise, let your battery refresh before plotting a cautious course to the base. Make sure you know where everyone is before making a dash for it, and try to pick a safe angle.
3) Don't fight pirates. Dump a bunch of swarms on them and run.
4) Trade in something survivable, preferably a Marauder. If you must use a Centaur, load up on swarms. Proms are a safe bet as well, besides which the Prom is so unbalanced most people won't jump it if they have a choice in the matter. Even good players have trouble killing n00bs in proms without using a prom themselves.
"Extra protection is needed, I mean, what space game doesn't give the ships shields?"
It's comments like that that make me want to say I hope this game never gets 'shields'. I don't want to see the game turn into every other space game, and I don't want to see anything done just because that is the way it is done. If they add shields, then the weapons should keep up with the curve. Noone should be completely safe from attack. To some extent, it's already too easy to run away in this game.
Sure. Your point would be better taken if you weren't so whiny about it. It sorta makes your argument look more self-centered than reasonable, and people won't take it as seriously. Once you get a bit more experienced, you'll be harder to kill.
Some tips:
1) Jump through gates on physics mode. You'll be moving when you reach the other side.
2) Don't just jump into a sector and turbo toward a base. Take a look at u and see who is around. If you see a bright red dot on radar, start moving. Otherwise, let your battery refresh before plotting a cautious course to the base. Make sure you know where everyone is before making a dash for it, and try to pick a safe angle.
3) Don't fight pirates. Dump a bunch of swarms on them and run.
4) Trade in something survivable, preferably a Marauder. If you must use a Centaur, load up on swarms. Proms are a safe bet as well, besides which the Prom is so unbalanced most people won't jump it if they have a choice in the matter. Even good players have trouble killing n00bs in proms without using a prom themselves.
"Extra protection is needed, I mean, what space game doesn't give the ships shields?"
It's comments like that that make me want to say I hope this game never gets 'shields'. I don't want to see the game turn into every other space game, and I don't want to see anything done just because that is the way it is done. If they add shields, then the weapons should keep up with the curve. Noone should be completely safe from attack. To some extent, it's already too easy to run away in this game.
[quote]To some extent, it's already too easy to run away in this game.[/quote]
I think its more than just a small extent, Celebrim
I think its more than just a small extent, Celebrim
I believe that while the original presentation of the request for shields did sound a bit whiny, there ***is*** a place for shields in this game. However, shields should be used to add depth to the game, not to take it away.
I've tossed around several ideas regarding shields, and have thought about it quite a bit. There was a great thread at one point (can't find it now) that went off on this great tangent about different weapon types, the effects of different kinds of armor and shields, the effect of various "particle clouds" on weapons and shields, and so on. maybe it is time to resurrect that thread...
To summarize my thoughts on shields:
1) I don't think it's time to start playing with shields yet. as with many other requests, I think this only stands a chance of succeeding if the ships and weapons are balanced a lot more first.
2) They first and foremost need to be balanced. There are several ways to do this... you could restrict weapons fire while shields are up. you could allow weapons fire, but have each impact deduct from your available energy. Shields could even be 100% impenetrable if you disabled both weapons AND turbo while they were on... but even still, certain weapons should effect shields regardless, which leads to #3...
3) Certain weapons should affect shields differently. An energy shield could stop energy weapons, but the impact of a concussion missile would still cause damage. There was talk about having lasers reflect (ricochet) from shields, which would cause a certain degree of fun and chaos (and would look cool) but might be difficult to implement.
4) Certain weapons and/or electronics gizmos should be available that would completely disable shields, and maybe even permanently destroy the shield generators*. The clever pirate would have a one-two punch consisting of an EMP blast and a heavy attack weapon; the battering ram and boarding crew if you will. Likewise, the clever merchant would have shields and a secondary means of defense and/or escape :-)
5) This one I consider to be very important: The status of your shields should be factored into the reputation system. In other words, if you have "shields up" it should be seen as a potentially hostile gesture, and weaken your reputation rating in certain systems, at least until you relax your posture. This ties into another tangent: the ability to "raise and lower" both shields and weapons...
So, based on this, you can see why I don't think we should even try to implement shields yet. If we had shields now, I fear that they would be too shallow to sustain an RPG for long.
..let the debate begin!
* A tangent: shields/weapons/gizmos should be able to be damaged and/or destroyed, requiring you to dock at a station and either repair or replace the item.
I've tossed around several ideas regarding shields, and have thought about it quite a bit. There was a great thread at one point (can't find it now) that went off on this great tangent about different weapon types, the effects of different kinds of armor and shields, the effect of various "particle clouds" on weapons and shields, and so on. maybe it is time to resurrect that thread...
To summarize my thoughts on shields:
1) I don't think it's time to start playing with shields yet. as with many other requests, I think this only stands a chance of succeeding if the ships and weapons are balanced a lot more first.
2) They first and foremost need to be balanced. There are several ways to do this... you could restrict weapons fire while shields are up. you could allow weapons fire, but have each impact deduct from your available energy. Shields could even be 100% impenetrable if you disabled both weapons AND turbo while they were on... but even still, certain weapons should effect shields regardless, which leads to #3...
3) Certain weapons should affect shields differently. An energy shield could stop energy weapons, but the impact of a concussion missile would still cause damage. There was talk about having lasers reflect (ricochet) from shields, which would cause a certain degree of fun and chaos (and would look cool) but might be difficult to implement.
4) Certain weapons and/or electronics gizmos should be available that would completely disable shields, and maybe even permanently destroy the shield generators*. The clever pirate would have a one-two punch consisting of an EMP blast and a heavy attack weapon; the battering ram and boarding crew if you will. Likewise, the clever merchant would have shields and a secondary means of defense and/or escape :-)
5) This one I consider to be very important: The status of your shields should be factored into the reputation system. In other words, if you have "shields up" it should be seen as a potentially hostile gesture, and weaken your reputation rating in certain systems, at least until you relax your posture. This ties into another tangent: the ability to "raise and lower" both shields and weapons...
So, based on this, you can see why I don't think we should even try to implement shields yet. If we had shields now, I fear that they would be too shallow to sustain an RPG for long.
..let the debate begin!
* A tangent: shields/weapons/gizmos should be able to be damaged and/or destroyed, requiring you to dock at a station and either repair or replace the item.
One other idea regarding shields and capital ships... but first a disclaimer. i have not played against the frigate yet, so this may end up being a moot point (which is why it's in a separate post).
What do you think of "capital class" shields that extend around a capital ship, creating a pilot-able (though small) "zone" around the cap ship....? Think of a capital ship with a dozen fighters tucked under its wing... they may not have shields of their own, but could ride safely in a convoy by using the wing of the mother ship, so to speak.
When the capital ship arrives and is ready for war, the shield would need to be lowered for ships to attack, because a collision with the shield wall would cause damage.
I think this could be a fun idea, although potentially hard to implement. Any thoughts???
What do you think of "capital class" shields that extend around a capital ship, creating a pilot-able (though small) "zone" around the cap ship....? Think of a capital ship with a dozen fighters tucked under its wing... they may not have shields of their own, but could ride safely in a convoy by using the wing of the mother ship, so to speak.
When the capital ship arrives and is ready for war, the shield would need to be lowered for ships to attack, because a collision with the shield wall would cause damage.
I think this could be a fun idea, although potentially hard to implement. Any thoughts???
slappyknappy: It's not so much a question of whether you could do that, but whether it would be worth the trouble it caused. Why not just have the fighters able to ride inside the capital ship - ei docked with it - rather than inside some bubble that the ship generates?
I know... that's why I broke that one idea from the main post. It would look cool, though... and the development of a visible/solid shield could be useful for other fun things...
But especially considering that ships will (hopefully) be able to dock in capital ships for repair, I guess this isn't really a very useful idea. The original shield wish-list stands, though.
But especially considering that ships will (hopefully) be able to dock in capital ships for repair, I guess this isn't really a very useful idea. The original shield wish-list stands, though.
Here's my take on shields--
1. Start with the premiss "Just don't do it."
Wing Commander style shields that absorb damage that would otherwise damage your armor don't really fit well in multiplayer games that include nearly unrestricted access to bases. The whole point behind shields to give people a degree of regeneration in a hit-point based game where there are predefined objectives that must be completed without failure, which doesn't apply to this game--you can run away to land and repair almost any time you want, and if that's not going to change, don't change the hitpoint dynamic either.
2. What are we really talking about when say "shields"?
There's two things shields can do in the game literature--either take damage that would normally hit your armor untill your shields are depleted, OR reduce the amount of damage per hit given the effectiveness of the brand of shield versus the kind of damage.
As I already stated, *I* don't like the idea of WC hit point shields, and think the reasons I posted are valid ones. Your milage may very, but I'm going to go with the concept that "partial damage reduction" shields fit better in this kind of game then "rengenerative hitpoint shields" do.
3. Fine, yer getting yer friggin' shields, but what are you going to DO with 'em?
There's typically this concept that a child is a little box inside your ship that generates a forcefield around it that makes it last longer in a fire fight. Can we do anything new here? What if a shield is a device, one of several, that can take up a new kind of weapons slot, like a "Misc" spot--a place to put shield generators, enhanced radar systems that can scan cargo or opponent ship damage, an emergency patch kit that can spray down your hull with an armor patch but at a cost ten times higher then a base would charge and with maybe only 1000 hp worth of patch, missile decoys/chaffe, cloaking devices that distort ships' radar, what ever. Bigger ships get more Misc spots, super light ships don't get any, and they are user configurable. Users could then choose an energy shield that would reduce damage from energy weapons by 10-40%, or even a kinetic shield that "uses the ships negative energy to create a cloud of postively charged microscopic stellar paricles around the ship that absorb and redirect some of the energy from a kenetic energy weapon." Activating either of these shields would cause a constant drain on the ships systems, less then the recharge rate of the slowest battery (so you can still fire and turbo, but the recharge just takes a hit--bigger/faster batteries aren't effected as badly). Alternatively, the shields are smart enough to use half of the ships battery recharge rate to power them selves and provide dynamic protection--10 energy units per second, 10% damage reduction, 20 energy units per second, 20% damage reduction, etc.
4. The future...
I just posted a suggestion about cap ships that I think this lends it's self to. In it, I outlined the idea of player-owned cap ships having a fair number of turret hardpoints that could be custom configured with external modules other then , such as credit-generating but resource-consuming refinement units, missle launchers, drone docking ports, speed or manuverabilty enhancements, and from this thread, shield generators. Something like this in place, would allow an infinate amount of customizability in cap ships--war ships, commerce ships, or safe haven homebases, all using the same cap ship frame. Additionally, there could be a shield configuration that would make a cap ship completely invulnerable from attack, but completely imoble/unproductive for it's owner, mearly acting as an insurance issue, without forcing the ship to leave the game unrealistically, or cease providing a level of support for the owners' team mates.
Just my two cents.
1. Start with the premiss "Just don't do it."
Wing Commander style shields that absorb damage that would otherwise damage your armor don't really fit well in multiplayer games that include nearly unrestricted access to bases. The whole point behind shields to give people a degree of regeneration in a hit-point based game where there are predefined objectives that must be completed without failure, which doesn't apply to this game--you can run away to land and repair almost any time you want, and if that's not going to change, don't change the hitpoint dynamic either.
2. What are we really talking about when say "shields"?
There's two things shields can do in the game literature--either take damage that would normally hit your armor untill your shields are depleted, OR reduce the amount of damage per hit given the effectiveness of the brand of shield versus the kind of damage.
As I already stated, *I* don't like the idea of WC hit point shields, and think the reasons I posted are valid ones. Your milage may very, but I'm going to go with the concept that "partial damage reduction" shields fit better in this kind of game then "rengenerative hitpoint shields" do.
3. Fine, yer getting yer friggin' shields, but what are you going to DO with 'em?
There's typically this concept that a child is a little box inside your ship that generates a forcefield around it that makes it last longer in a fire fight. Can we do anything new here? What if a shield is a device, one of several, that can take up a new kind of weapons slot, like a "Misc" spot--a place to put shield generators, enhanced radar systems that can scan cargo or opponent ship damage, an emergency patch kit that can spray down your hull with an armor patch but at a cost ten times higher then a base would charge and with maybe only 1000 hp worth of patch, missile decoys/chaffe, cloaking devices that distort ships' radar, what ever. Bigger ships get more Misc spots, super light ships don't get any, and they are user configurable. Users could then choose an energy shield that would reduce damage from energy weapons by 10-40%, or even a kinetic shield that "uses the ships negative energy to create a cloud of postively charged microscopic stellar paricles around the ship that absorb and redirect some of the energy from a kenetic energy weapon." Activating either of these shields would cause a constant drain on the ships systems, less then the recharge rate of the slowest battery (so you can still fire and turbo, but the recharge just takes a hit--bigger/faster batteries aren't effected as badly). Alternatively, the shields are smart enough to use half of the ships battery recharge rate to power them selves and provide dynamic protection--10 energy units per second, 10% damage reduction, 20 energy units per second, 20% damage reduction, etc.
4. The future...
I just posted a suggestion about cap ships that I think this lends it's self to. In it, I outlined the idea of player-owned cap ships having a fair number of turret hardpoints that could be custom configured with external modules other then , such as credit-generating but resource-consuming refinement units, missle launchers, drone docking ports, speed or manuverabilty enhancements, and from this thread, shield generators. Something like this in place, would allow an infinate amount of customizability in cap ships--war ships, commerce ships, or safe haven homebases, all using the same cap ship frame. Additionally, there could be a shield configuration that would make a cap ship completely invulnerable from attack, but completely imoble/unproductive for it's owner, mearly acting as an insurance issue, without forcing the ship to leave the game unrealistically, or cease providing a level of support for the owners' team mates.
Just my two cents.
Good points...
I don't want a WC style shield system either. The way that I would like to see shields implemented -- and in fact all of my suggestions about this game -- are driven by a desire to add depth to the RP elements of the game. Not saying that I don't want any enhancements to the more arcade-style elements either, but I leave those suggestions to the experts on those games.
That said, I like the idea of cloaking shields (visual and/or radar), reflective shields, shields that go "ping", etc.
These things allow you to role-play, to put yourself inside of a character and interact with your universe on a less arcade-ish level.
I don't want a WC style shield system either. The way that I would like to see shields implemented -- and in fact all of my suggestions about this game -- are driven by a desire to add depth to the RP elements of the game. Not saying that I don't want any enhancements to the more arcade-style elements either, but I leave those suggestions to the experts on those games.
That said, I like the idea of cloaking shields (visual and/or radar), reflective shields, shields that go "ping", etc.
These things allow you to role-play, to put yourself inside of a character and interact with your universe on a less arcade-ish level.
haharich: Wow! Someone that not only agrees with me about shields but which agrees with me nearly point for point!
I feel like I've found a long lost family member.
Good post. Woohoo. Hear that dev's? I'm not the only one that thinks that's the best way to handle the problem.
I feel like I've found a long lost family member.
Good post. Woohoo. Hear that dev's? I'm not the only one that thinks that's the best way to handle the problem.
Great 2 celebrims, now hell will be freezing over soon.
=)
=)
And look at the length of the post! I don't have that long of an atten... Ooo! Bagels! :P
I like ba... Oh Pie!!
Hmmm... Shields... I kinda like the way the "Shield gun" is triggered in UT2k3. You have to hold down the trigger to activate it, but cannot use any weapons and have a delay before you can use weapons. It makes for a more tactically interesting game. It'd be nice if the 10-50% damage reduction shield gizmo could be like that, because you would have to pay attention. For example, if you see a rocket coming towards you and know that you have no time to dodge, you could flip out your shield gun and hold down the trigger while trying to get away from the center of the blast. More tactically interesting than just having a 100% uptime shield, and more realistic. hehe
My opinion on the shields issue has always been that we already have "shields" or some sort of "structural integrity field" or something.
A single ion burst, or a grain of sand for that matter, will tear any ship to bits once this system is overloaded. The armored appearance of the Prometheus could be because the large plates allow for a greater amount of, erm, conductors for the integrity field imbedded within the hull.
Asp
A single ion burst, or a grain of sand for that matter, will tear any ship to bits once this system is overloaded. The armored appearance of the Prometheus could be because the large plates allow for a greater amount of, erm, conductors for the integrity field imbedded within the hull.
Asp